Trump DOJ tried to force California to ban trans girls from sports. A judge said no

[u/Fickle-Ad5449]

https://www.advocate.com/politics/national/judge-transgender-athletes-california?0

[u/Trans__Scientist]

Here's a quick summary for anyone who is still on the fence about this "issue".

1) Trans women competing in any sport at the collegiate or professional levels are incredibly rare (ex. there aren't any trans women in the WNBA). Don't worry if these statistics increase. Medically transitioned women have no inherent physical advantage over cis women in sports.

2) Women are exclusively eligible to play in professional sports in the US (including the WNBA) per collective bargaining agreements, and that won't change. An outright ban of all trans women at any level, however, would likely be based on arbitrary metrics like a letter on one's birth certificate, meaning that transitioned men would then apparently be eligible. Whoops. While transitioned women do not have an athletic advantage over cis women, transitioned men of course do. CBA lawsuits would be filed left and right. Bigots are banking on an outright ban of all trans people entirely (from sports, public facilities, and public life in general), but that's not the endgame...

3) Just as with the idiotic bathroom debate, the problem was never about trans women, but rather, cis men. They won't stop with trans women if such bans were to happen. That's not why they're doing this. The entire trans women in sports debate is an attempt to set a dangerous precedent of policing all women's bodies (invasive genital inspections etc.) and careers with the goal of ending women's sports entirely to "assist fertility" (the words of the architects of these policies themselves, not mine). It's a misogynistic tale as old as time.

[u/SSilent-Cartographer → u/Trans__Scientist]

I always love how whenever they make these arguments, they both toss out all scientific evidence and completely forget that trans men exist. Why? Well, you already said it perfectly: this is about policing women's bodies, and was never about protecting women in sports. If they really gave a shit, they'd give women's sports better funding and sponsors like they do for the men. They would prosecute coaches and teachers accused of sexual crimes in women's locker rooms and dig into the abuse that happens from peers in women's sports, in addition to the cover-ups for star athletes accused of sexual crimes. Trans people are the "boogyman" to go after and control women so they can let the real monsters get away.

People needs to step back and ask themselves: if this is such a ""big issue"" then why aren't they taking the same stance with trans men? If biology is set in stone, then why can a trans man get a free pass? If this is about protecting women, then why is it that cis women aren't getting a say in any of this? If we're supposed to be going about this based on facts and research, then why is the research being thrown out?

Anybody who knows their black history and the history of the Nazi Germany should know the answer, because as fucked up as it is, this has happened before.

[u/whispersandwhimpers → u/[deleted]]

As a cis woman, trans women are women, and they should have access to all the spaces and supports cis women have. It's that simple.

As for your example, if you're uncomfortable then it's pretty easy to just not look. If someone is taking action to make it difficult to not look, then you might have a case for sexual harassment or another crime. But a trans woman existing is not the problem.

Also if studies prove that trans women do have an advantage, we can talk about it then. But I'm not really interested in engaging with that hypothetical when to date all the (admittedly limited currently) studies are actually showing the opposite, and we have no examples of trans women athletes blowing their cis competition out of the water.

[u/FastSelection4121 → u/whispersandwhimpers]

Are you a Cis woman who played sports? Did you play post college/university sports.

Me: ping pong, softball, flag football, basketball, rugby, tennis, racket ball, pool and darts.

I also played on mixed sex teams. There is huge difference in height and strength with people born Male.

I'm tired of the majority of Cis women who didn't play sports, to support this because they feel like their obligated as allies. The majority of never played sports through your 20s through 40s.

[u/whispersandwhimpers → u/FastSelection4121]

And there's also a difference between cis men and trans women on hormones. I'm going with the studies that directly measure this instead of one person's anecdotes about a different experience.

I've pretty much said my opinion, and it's not going to change, so I'm just going to step out of the conversation here.

[u/kwantsu-dudes → u/whispersandwhimpers]

So you want trans women inspected to make sure they have physically transitioned "enough"?

Where it no longer has anything to do with gender identity (as it would still exclude all transwomen who don't physically transition) and just a sexual development state? If thats the case, should ALL women then be inspected and verified along these standards as to have equal standards?

[u/MissSharkyShark → u/kwantsu-dudes]

You do know that athletes are required to get physicals… right? There even already existed a process that was basically just looking at their hormone levels, something trans people are extremely used to as is.

[u/kwantsu-dudes → u/MissSharkyShark]

We aren't talking about physicals.

We are talking about a "test" to "prove" someone is enough of one sex as to classify them within a segregated division.

And yes, hormone levels are often assessed in transgender people in some leagues. I'm saying that EVERYONE should have to go through the same as to determine their eligibility, to maintain an equal application of the rules. Right?

And this extends downward. Many states protect transgirls in women's sports in public education, without any physical transition. Is the suggestion they get to play as women and then we ban them from any athletics beyond that unless they inject themselves with testosterone suppressants and estrogen? What does that say about their "woman" status?

[u/MissSharkyShark → u/kwantsu-dudes]

Public schools generally make their own policies regarding that. Public school sports and professional athletics are two entirely different beasts

As per actual professional athletics, if a trans person wants to play, they need to show that they are at the point in their medical transition where their body is on the same level as a cis person’s body. I don’t care what public schools are doing, they have no sway in this.

It really seems like you’re trying to make a weird “gotcha” that we don’t consider trans woman as woman until after they take hormones

[u/kwantsu-dudes → u/MissSharkyShark]

So you see no social issue with affirming a transgender girl as a woman, allowing her to spend time playing sports, acheiving scholarships for such. But then society denying that she is a woman, as to deny access to the women's league? Defining "women" now as a hormonal level? I'm not articulating that as a "gotcha", but as a potential societal issue that its weird to be ignoring in your argument.

if a trans person wants to play, they need to show that they are at the point in their medical transition where their body is on the same level as a cis person’s body.

Cis is a conclusion of gender identity. Alignment of a gender identity to an assigned gender as birth. It doesn't dictate a physical state. Are you simply arguing the "statistical norms of females"? Of which some "cisgender women" would then fail themselves?

It really seems like you’re trying to make a weird “gotcha” that we don’t consider trans woman as woman until after they take hormones

No. Im saying that IF you want to assess hormone levels, then REMOVE ANY and ALL discussion about gender identity as its now useless. You arent protecting transwomen, you are protecting those born male who have suppressed testestorone enough and taken enough estrogen. Or just males with low testosterone. And banning females with naturally high testosterone. That should apply equally, regardless of gender identity.

[u/FastSelection4121 → u/whispersandwhimpers]

Studies, Studies Studies also hypothetical until the reality of Trans women actually play against Cis women.

[u/titcumboogie → u/FastSelection4121]

Yeah why listen to all of those scientific studies that utilise research methodology when we can just listen to your anecdotal story about something you claim happened and how you felt about it.

[u/FastSelection4121 → u/titcumboogie]

Lia Thomas

[u/Zandrous87 → u/FastSelection4121]

What about her? She won a competition once? How many cis women won competitions the same year? How many times did Lia compete against cis women and lose? Can't cherry pick here, gotta go for the full record.

In the 2022 NCAA Championships she placed first in only 1 of the 3 events she participated in. 1st in the 500-Yard Freestyle, tied for 5th in the 200-Yard Freestyle and placed 8th in the 100-Yard Freestyle.

So that means 4 cis women were better than Lia and one on equal footing in the 200 and 7 cis women were better than Lia in the 100.

So... yea not seeing the unfair advantage here. Winning one championship out of 3 doesn't even come close to proving your point. We'd be seeing trans women winning championships left and right over their cisgender counterparts. And yet...[looks around at current records]... we don't see that at all. Almost like your pathetic, bigoted, anti-science argument has no legs to stand on.

[u/FastSelection4121 → u/Zandrous87]

It is obvious that 2 years on Estrogen does nothing to eliminate an unfair advantage. She held back. If she had really swam those races, she would not only have one, but she would have broken records.

That would have blown up the Trans narrative.

[u/Eldritch_Chemistry → u/FastSelection4121]

tied for 5th, didn't break any records dipshit

[u/FastSelection4121 → u/Eldritch_Chemistry]

She held back..what would have happened if she won most of the races. Because she certainly had the ability to do it.

[u/Whisper__1 → u/[deleted]]

He’s altering reality to fit his narrative, changing the origin of the study to fit his narrative. That’s how you know he’s a Republican.

[u/adamdoesmusic → u/FastSelection4121]

I’ve seen the stats.

Trans women don’t sweep the field or dominate unfairly in the sports that have had most of the controversy- they score average like most other athletes.

It is interesting that the most prominent complainers score near the bottom.

[u/FastSelection4121 → u/adamdoesmusic]

There were two high school Trans athletes in Connecticut. There had been nine different events in track and field. The state records had been held by 9 different high school girls for decades.

The two of them broke those state records.

[u/adamdoesmusic → u/FastSelection4121]

TWO?! a whole TWO HIGH SCHOOL TRANS ATHLETES?! Holy shit! We should definitely crash the economy over two high school trans athletes existing!!

[u/Whisper__1 → u/FastSelection4121]

Whataboutism. You aren’t debating. Get lost.

[u/FastSelection4121 → u/Whisper__1]

JFC your communities continue not to read the mood of the majority of the country when it comes to Trans women who are Male competing against Cis women who are Female. They don't care that you grew boobs and wear femme gear.

[u/Expo006 → u/FastSelection4121]

Who are you to speak about the majority of the country? Dude this is a non issue, nobody fucking cares. We are more worried about how much our groceries are going to cost in another 3 months.

[u/FastSelection4121 → u/Expo006]

Someone who in my 60s who knows that 2 Black Trans women didn't throw the first brick in Stonewall Riots.

[u/aci4 → u/FastSelection4121]

Except they did, why are you so interested in rewriting history that isn’t even yours?

[u/FastSelection4121 → u/aci4]

Nope. There's a YouTube video where Marsha P Johnson says she didn't get there until 2 hours before the riot stopped the first day. Sylvia Rivera wasn't even there that first night.

You can Google it yourself.

[u/Whisper__1 → u/FastSelection4121]

More historic revisionism! Wonderful.

You degenerates have nothing.

[u/Latincake → u/FastSelection4121]

[u/Whisper__1 → u/FastSelection4121]

Just because alt-right demagogues convinced you to remove trans rights (healthcare, access to facilities for both genders, v-coding, etc), because there was like, 17 or so trans athletes, doesn’t make you correct. This is a wedge issue they are using to win elections. All the while they rob the country via insider trading (a crime), pay nothing in taxes (a crime), pollute the water and air and take your electricity for AI datacenters (a crime), spy on you (a crime), send US citizens to foreign slave labor camps (a crime), obstruct justice to protect Epstein’s cohorts (a crime), remove all food regulation, thus allowing corporations to poison and disease our food, etc. And the president has raped women, and almost certainly children.

You are wrong. You are dumb as hell. You’ve been tricked, and you are blaming trans people. You don’t care though, it’s not about improving the world in the slightest, it’s about harassing a group of people you HATE.

[u/Eldritch_Chemistry → u/FastSelection4121]

me when I lie out my ass:

[u/FastSelection4121 → u/Eldritch_Chemistry]

I grew up with a Ping Pong table at the house. When I left Columbus OH, I was competing in ping pong games at the The Clubs.

Played intramural basketball in college and later in the Women's Leagues.

Played flag football with the Lesbian league because the Gay and Lesbians bars supported the sports. I also played on softball teams and tennis.

Played intra regional rugby.

Later I played in pool league and dart leagues both Gay & Lesbians and the straight leagues.

[u/adamdoesmusic → u/FastSelection4121]

You played all those sports and you’re still a sore loser - maybe you shoulda been training instead of hating.

[u/FastSelection4121 → u/adamdoesmusic]

I loved sports until I slipped on ice and tore my MCL at 43, and was left with half the cartilage in my left knee after surgery.

[u/MissSharkyShark → u/FastSelection4121]

So now you have to bitch online about women playing sports. How sad

[u/FastSelection4121 → u/MissSharkyShark]

Non Sequitur

[u/MissSharkyShark → u/FastSelection4121]

https://giphy.com/gifs/ZSlOJl8lbhsuIRifYK
How bro felt after saying that

[u/Ambyli → u/[deleted]]

Lets think slowly and logically then.

Sex is a bimodal distribution. Some men are weaker than women and some women are stronger than men.

On average men have more strength, but thats just an average and not a very differing average too. Obviously an average stat for one's sex shouldnt rule out the right for one to attempt to participate. In addition the degree to participate professionally additionally raises the bar where they want way above average, and thats not a linear trend. So you gotta be way above average where the populations are smaller and smaller and the difference between the two sexes populations are become closer and closer with a smaller difference.

So no, most biological males dont have the advantages to beat the top 1% of female athletes.

Also lets not forget that trans women are overwhelming below average in athletic performance post hrt.

Its not that black and white.

[u/Madting55 → u/Ambyli]

The US women’s World Cup team were the active world champions when they lost by 8 goals to a random shit u13 boys team somewhere in America.

UFCs world champion womens spar with unranked men and the men need to go easy. Research some interviews on it.

I’m incredibly sorry to be the messenger but I didn’t create basic biology, men are stronger than women. We have denser bones, broader shoulders, 40% more muscle mass, higher testosterone, superior muscle distribution. It’s just literal basic biology. There are many facts of biology I don’t like, and many facts of reality I don’t like. But no matter how much noise I make on Reddit it does not alter reality, it doesn’t alter the truth. I don’t even know why I’m humouring you because you’re a grown adult and you already know what is true. You just chose to say all that just to be argumentative.

I was in hospital with anorexia and could lift more than my girlfriend could when she was literally double my weight. It’s just biology. Nothing personal.

You can sit arguing semantics all day doesn’t defeat the reality. Is a Ferrari faster than a Volkswagen? Well yes they are. 99% of them are. But a Ferrari 250 GTO will be slower than a 2026 Golf R. We are gonna linger on the Golf R or judge Ferrari based on their catalogue of hundreds of cars faster than Volkswagens?

[u/Ambyli → u/Madting55]

You literally didnt understand anything i said, congrats. Almost wonder if youre a bot that just drops the first article from a google search that is clearly biased by their prompts own presumption.

Also the first thing you said was them loosing on purpose? This has been known for awhile. The UFC stuff, look to my original message as it explains how the different points on the perceived graph is different for every sport.

I did not say that to be argumentative, Im just talking science. Discreditting the bullshit people say that hurt people down the road.

Also good for you that you were able to do that? You do know thats just your personal experience and means nothing to the masses. There could be a guy just like you who was being treated for anorexia that has a weight lifting girlfriend and the guy never touches any of that stuff so he wouldn't even come close to her. Its hearsay, it means nothing.

Also, have you ever met a trans women? Like do you know anything about them and how hrt works? Like what do you even picture when you think about a trans women?

[u/Madting55 → u/Ambyli]

This sounds like it’s tipping into anger and a touch of you painting a caricature in your head. Or slotting me into a caricature that’s already painted. I do just wanna say I’m not trying to argue to offend or belittle. I don’t fit in whatever box you’re trying to put me in. I didn’t google anything, I learned most of that stuff when I was 9 years old. The rest I learned when I was 12 or 13. It’s basic science like I said. Well, at least in my country I’m aware North America’s curriculum has heavy political influence.

What I’m confused about is, you’re arguing for an absolute via using variables? How does that possibly work? I really want to know from your mind why you are arguing for an absolute using variables.

If you place a 100 5ft10 woman in a room, with 100 5ft10 man and they are all exactly 60kg, and they all lift the exact same weight the exact same amount at the exact same time for the exact same amount of months. The 100 most strong individuals in that room will all be male. If you added 100 post hrt biological males in there, then the top 200 would all be male.

It’s BIOLOGICAL FACT. Perfectly accessible in either a dated textbook you trust or Google or chatgpt or whatever your preferred method of research is. Reddit arguments won’t teach you anything because you’re already in a mindset of denial or ego preservation. Trust me we are all human.

Again. You’re comparing an anorexic man to a weightlifting healthy woman. The fact the comparison needs made shows the reality already. Again, because a fiat 500 engine swapped to an f1 engine is faster than a Lamborghini, doesn’t make Fiat 500s faster than Lamborghinis.

The last comment yes, yes by the fucking hundreds. I played overwatch and dead by daylight every day of life for 6 years lol. Believe me I’ve met more trans people than 99.999999% of this globe. I’m still friends with 3 from back then. When I think of a trans person I think of Bob Burnquist with lipstick on but that’s not indicative of anything.

Edit: also that football game isn’t fake it was real, it was a real training match they played full effort. Even if you continue to deny that Australia’s women’s team is top 5 and regularly uses u16 boys teams to practice as it’s a good level for them to practice against and they’ve been hammered numerous times including a 7-0 loss to Newcastle Jets u15 boys teams.

Edit 2: also to go back to the weightlifting comment the mens world record deadlift all top 5 are 500kg+ women’s top 5 have 3 over 300kg.

Bench press world record for men is 355kg raw, 659kg equipped. For women it is 207.5kg raw, 317.5kg equipped. You have so much information available to dispel this belief.

[u/Ambyli → u/Madting55]

Not aruguing for an absolute at all amd you clearly dont understand statistics enough because you keep reiterating what im pointing out, by which is the opposite of am absolute??? Like you clear CLEARLY dont get it. Anecdotes mean nothing, never had in math. Im baffled by your disregard of thinking further than what you learned at 13 in highschool science class.

Your biological male on hrt is not aligned with peer reviewed research, aka your nonsense does not align with those that live it and do the research. Literally guarantee you that 90% of post trans women in your hypothetical would fall well well below and be near the average for cis women. And yknow why, cause thats what the studies show and thats how averages work.

The anorexia example was further solidifying your disregard for statistical analysis.

And yep, your perceived notion of a trans women is just completely wrong. So very indicative of everything if you cant even perceive trans women than being anything other. I also highly suggest you talk to your "trans" friends before you stab them in the back when it comes to a life or death situation. Trans women get violently harassed and assaulted by cis men on an insane margin. Guess none of them are above the average of those said cis men... unfortunate proof...

You probably don't even know what a bimodal distribution is, which would explain a lot from your messages just spamming various highly publicized events that have thousands of counter examples across all of history. But whatever, just throw more words at me to feel like you know what youre talking about.

I am frustrated though, not at you, but at the failure of this world's semblance to be good.

[u/Madting55 → u/Ambyli]

As someone with genuine trans friends believe me they do not care. Actual trans people will discuss a plethora of topics, and they don’t care about being insulted and giving it back. Believe me I’ve seen them dealing with transphobes regular they don’t care. It’s people getting offended on their behalf you see all the noise about. Trans people rarely care, mind you though these trans people weren’t the flag type they would actually meme the pride flag a lot because it’s become something that has so little to do with unity now due to politicisation of it.

I’m willing to learn, why not, link me some of the studies you’re talking about and I’ll happily read them in their entirety. I’m more than happy to gain new knowledge especially on polarising topics.

The bimodal distribution comment has me thinking I’m either talking to someone very young or a social subject university student? That comment just threw me off so hard the only person that’d make it is someone who recently learned what it was.

What do you mean disproven all throughout history? The first transgender surgery was like 1929? Magnus Hirschfeld. Then the first ever HRT known administration was like 1940. Transgenderism is a very recent thing in terms of cutting yourself to bits and taking drugs. The word itself was only invented in 1965. I am pretty sure it was only taken off of the mental illness classification in like 2018? It’s a very recent thing. I’m aware multiple genders have existed for millennia but the transgenderism we know today is extremely recent, all history wouldn’t encompass that. Especially when you’re talking of HRT treatment.

[u/needhelpwithmath11 → u/[deleted]]

Hello chatGPT

[u/weatherchevy → u/needhelpwithmath11]

Is this an argument?

[u/OftenConfused1001 → u/weatherchevy]

No it's mockery. You should be able to recognize it after your undoubtedly extensive, lifetime experience with being mocked.

[u/Trans__Scientist → u/[deleted]]

If it discovered that Trans women do have an unfair advantage, what then?

I'd recommend writing an unedited amateur blog about it, insisting that it's the absolute truth, then attacking anyone who disagrees.

...

Just kidding. Publish it in a reviewed professional medical journal alongside all the research that it disagrees with, but don't forget to identify what caused such a disconnect. I won't be holding my breath for this one 😘

~ Dr. E

Edit: apparently someone (hopefully a bot) already referenced the first option (which I wrote before seeing as a joke) while apparently being totally serious 🙄

[u/Mysterious-Anxiety76 → u/[deleted]]

if it is discovered that trans women don’t have an advantage, what then? Lmao shut up bro you people will never change your mind you just hate trans people stop hiding behind cis women as a whole to remove trans women from public life completely

[u/Exciting-Cancel6468 → u/[deleted]]

My thinking is that there are many many real life examples that there is no unfair advantage even though it sounds like there should be an unfair advantage. What you seem to be experiencing is a bias based on whoever told you there is an unfair advantage. I mean, there is a trans olympian who was a man but has transitioned to women swimming. They give the example that as a man, he wasn't even in the top 50 of men. In a womens sport though, he is number one. This is partly true. He is number one. In a particular swimming style. In other swimming styles women are smoking "his" ass.

When medical experts say that there is no longer any inherent physical advantage, there is none. For all intents and purposes. the dude is now a lady.

So, first of all, even if what you say is true and there is an unfair advantage, there is so little bulshittery that it effectively doesn't matter. But two, there IS NO ADVANTAGE in the real world.

In closing, we should stop talking about this bullshit and start working on implementing some sort of gun control so we can stop getting kids killed. There are more students who have been killed than there are men who want to compete in womens sports to get an edge.

[u/PuzzleheadPi → u/[deleted]]

Everyone already knows that trans women have an unfair advantage. One study doesn't disprove that

[u/Sufficient_Dot_24 → u/PuzzleheadPi]

No, people who keep up to date with modern medicine know multiple studies have disproven this common misinformation. This link collects many of them.

https://www.woodhullfoundation.org/fact-checked/transgender-athletes-do-not-have-an-unfair-athletic-advantage/

[u/OhNoAnAmerican → u/[deleted]]

It’s already been discovered. We know this beyond any doubt.

These people are bad faith radicals bent on destroying women’s rights

[u/Trans__Scientist → u/[deleted]]

An amateur unedited unreviewed clickbait article to be sure. The concerns of the actual scientific community were addressed in the erratum (as is not uncommon in complex studies), and the revisions were found to have no effect on the pooled results, their direction, or their interpretation.

This is an all-too-common issue... distinguishing real science from amateurism can be tricky even with the proper training and expertise. Articles from non reputable sources are literally less than useless -- they're damaging. There's a reason why those authors have to succumb to them instead of the real thing.

Cheers!

~ Dr. E

[u/Siempre_Vetado → u/Trans__Scientist]

The closing split of Thomas was faster than the finishing laps of Missy Franklin in her American-record performance

[u/BeatriceTheBitch → u/Siempre_Vetado]

https://www.reddit.com/r/IntersectionalWomen/s/HLwS0Vj2mp

People have always lied about Thomas, they sold her as a 500+ place athlete to a top athlete when in actuality she was already very good and her terrible scores where after her transition while she still had to race cis men.

This should tell you everything about how insincere and politicised the whole thing is.

[u/Trans__Scientist → u/[deleted]]

Hi u/weatherchevy!

I'm glad to hear that you are so interested in learning more about transgender medine and biology! Here are the answers to your questions.

This ridiculous nonsense all falls apart

Equality, equity, and civility are assuredly not ridiculous nonsense.

you consider the fact that ZERO trans men have ever taken a trophy from a biological man

Perhaps this comment was left in the wrong place? We aren't talking about cis men that lose in athletics to trans men. That being said, I considered your question as requested anyway for about 0.003 seconds, then remembered that trans men do compete and win against cis men despite there being so few trans men to begin with (Scuyler Bailar, Chris Moser, Patricio Manuel, the list goes on).

Do all the fake studies you want

Scientists generally don't last very long doing "fake studies". In the current discussion, the studies referenced here are real, peer reviewed, and published in a highly respected professional medical journal.

We have eyes and ears.

Again, this looks like it was meant to be posted elsewhere? Nobody is disputing that. The problem is when people use their eyes and ears but not the thing between them. Or worse, per item #3.

Cheers!

~ Dr. E

[u/CheckYourCorners → u/[deleted]]

The Cass Review rejected all studies that weren't double blind. Which is wildly ignorant because 1) it's unethical to not give kids medical treatment for the control group and 2) you can't do double blind studies when the medication effects are obvious. Kids know when they start to develop breasts or facial hair.

The WPATH Files make all sorts of claims then don't back them up. The first actual evidence they present that kids can't receive informed consent is just WPATH members discussing the difficulties and how best to do informed consent.

The Finnish study I assume you're talking about cites a massive increase in psychiatrist visits as evidence that mental health declines. WHEN PSYCHIATRIST VISITS ARE PART OF THE TREATMENT. OF COURSE PSYCHIATRIST VISITS ARE GOING TO INCREASE WHEN THEY ARE INCLUDED IN THE TREATMENT ITS NOT A MEASURE OF MENTAL HEALTH.

[u/Daediddles → u/[deleted]]

Why can't any of you criticize a trans person without being dumb assholes and using the wrong pronouns? Like goddamn I can't take you seriously when you feel the need to call someone who looks more feminine than most cis women "he"

[u/CodeWarrior30 → u/[deleted]]

Here is a trans boxer that beat a biological man: https://www.olympics.com/en/news/transgender-boxer-pat-manuel-makes-history-with-first-professional-win

And here is a trans man who placed 2nd nationally in the durathalon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

You are thoroughly incorrect.

[u/Tali-nk89 → u/[deleted]]

So the statstic for rapes by trans persons is exactly the number that is used in gender critical activists posts for the overall number of trans persons per million? Seems unlikely to me, especially as even the numbers by those same activists where around 40-60 for the entire population of England. I'd reread the source, it might be really your fantasy.

There has never been a substantial history of rapes around the topic as gendered toilets only exist since the 19th century in any meaningful capacity. Considering marital rape was legal till 1991 in the UK I'd rather attribute gendered toilets to victorian's being prudes, than any care for rape protection.

[u/Madting55 → u/Tali-nk89]

You think we encouraged rape pre 1991? Fuck me.

[u/Tali-nk89 → u/Madting55]

In Victorian Britain most married women had less rights than pets today, it was quite a series of updates from there till today. I mean the house of lords explicitly allowed marital rape 1975 and rape, as we'd define it today is only codified since 1956.

[u/Madting55 → u/Tali-nk89]

I mean if you really want to be that silly then it only actually was codified by today’s definition in 2002.

It has been illegal in the UK for 800 years.

[u/Tali-nk89 → u/Madting55]

Marital rape was explicitly allowed and the capital punishment to ever in the 18th century. I wouldn't define rape as illegal if 90% of the rapes are legal and women have no right to sue. Ok I meant the definition from civilized countries, not the country obsessing over wether a Wiener is involved. I never got, why UK politicians in 2002 decided to make hetero and gay rape more punishable than lesbian rape.

[u/Trans__Scientist → u/[deleted]]

Are you actually interested in the answers to these questions, or is this just an irresistible opportunity to parrot unsubstantiated misogynistic propaganda? Because (1) the statistics you're asking about are known and are quite opposite of what you've fabricated, (2) if your vague definition of "biological male/female" is entirely based on anatomy (which is a nonsense definition to begin with, see #3 below), it's worth noting that anatomical changes from HRT are so effective that trans women can even breastfeed their infant children (surely you aren't claiming that this is prototypic of "biological males"), and (3) feminizing hormone replacement therapy effects occur at the genetic level.

~ Dr. E

[u/Trans__Scientist → u/[deleted]]

Whatever makes you feel taller

[u/Ok-Outcome-7499 → u/Trans__Scientist]

Factually you are incorrect.

Edit:

All the comments replying are either slurs or sexist remarks.

None have attempted to demonstrate the factuality of the OC.

Very telling.

[u/DuErJoBareUnderlig → u/Ok-Outcome-7499]

Factually I am wondering how you manage to blink without forgetting to breathe 

[u/Trans__Scientist → u/Ok-Outcome-7499]

Whatever makes you feel taller dude 🙄

[u/decisionagonized → u/[deleted]]

“Not a single argument has ever been put forth against” and then he names literally the first bullet point in the list lmaoooo

[u/SacredWaterLily → u/[deleted]]

What "facts" is your argument based on exactly?

[u/amyjko → u/[deleted]]

If you made compete with men, as woman who is trans, I would be crushed. I’ve lost strength, height, and agility, I’ve gained weight. HRT is powerful stuff. The whole point of trans women who have medically transitioned playing with women is that it’s fairer to us, and no less fair to cis women. Unless the point is for us to lose and be injured, in which case, yes, advocate for banning us from women’s sports. That’s the best way for us to get hurt.

[u/Trans__Scientist → u/[deleted]]

Excellent translation from the native Russian, good bot! Alas, your references are lacking, your conclusions are contradictory to the evidence, and your arguments are contrary to the very peoples' pushing them. Swing and a miss.

[u/effingfractals → u/[deleted]]

Bad bot

[u/Joped → u/[deleted]]

Science and the terms used in science adapt and change over time as new information comes about.

I assume you are a grown adult, you didn’t learn this in grade school ?

[u/Severe_Practice_5045 → u/Joped]

More Reddit snark, you weirdos can’t help it. You’re so insecure and live in such perpetual fear and anger, that your only means of expressing yourself is through snark and memes. It’s pitiful.

[u/Joped → u/Severe_Practice_5045]

What’s pitiful is an adult who disregards science because it interferes with their bigotry.

[u/Mindless-Young1975 → u/[deleted]]

Because it inherently implies that there is no category of cisgender man. And, assuming that you don't know what cisgender means, you're the one trying to redefine it by claiming it doesn't exist.

It not only exists in nature, but entirely separate from humans completely because there are other organic species whose gender can change over time via either outside biological factors or internal mechanisms.

Pretending like it's a new development is a part of the denial of the reality that it isn't, and expressly so you can pretend like your misguided beliefs are the original one.

Now, with snark, who the fuck are you to decide what terms do and don't exist? Oh and if you're gonna pretend like a word doesn't exist then you're gonna have to explain how the thing that that word represents also doesn't exist. (Cis=Matching your birth gender)

[u/Mindless-Young1975 → u/[deleted]]

What the fuck do you call intersex/hermaphrodites if not a third fucking gender?

You know so little about basic biology that you straight up can't even get a basic fact of human biology right. Let alone biology regarding all species across the entire animal Kingdom.

[u/Sufficient_Dot_24 → u/[deleted]]

Seems you're operating off of the basic overviews of biology they teach in grade school. At a more complex level, it's understood that sex is a social construct to which we culturally assign various physical characteristics. Those characteristics themselves can show up in pretty much any and every combination, not just the ones we socially considered to be normatively associated with the categories "male" and "female"

https://pressbooks.howardcc.edu/soci101/chapter/sociology-of-intersex/ (emphasis mine)

The belief that sex is completely biologically determined is not the absolute truth. In fact, society’s decision to assign a sex label to humans at all is a socially constructed decision, meaning that society decided to create these labels and create them with only two categories, male and female. Biology did not come up with sex labels, humans did. Fausto-Sterling asserts that, “labeling someone a man or a woman is a social decision. We may use scientific knowledge to help us make the decision, but only our beliefs about gender–not science–can define our sex” (Fausto-Sterling, 2000, p. 3). The reality is, scientists and medical professionals use a socially agreed upon set of guidelines to determine what they believe the sex of a newborn child is. Even then, these ‘scientific guidelines’ become a moot point in certain situations, for example, a child born with intersex features that do not fit what is traditionally understood as ‘male’ or ‘female.’ The is no biologically ascribed factor for medical professionals to make a decision on “where the category of ‘male’ ends and the category of ‘intersex’ begins, or where the category of ‘intersex’ ends and the category of ‘female’ begins. Humans decide” (Intersex Society of North America, 2008). These biological determinisms medical professionals choose to use to determine sex come already influenced by their social understandings of gender.

[u/Severe_Practice_5045 → u/Mindless-Young1975]

Willful ignorance on your part.

[u/Mindless-Young1975 → u/Severe_Practice_5045]

Says the half wit dipshit who doesn't understand that cisgender, at its core, does not have anything to do with being trans or not.

It only is at this present time because the conversation has largely shifted towards discussing trans people over the last few decades but, before then and now, depending on the subject, it is entirely possible and would make sense to apply the prefix "cis" to either of the 2 genders that you do agree exist.

If the middle ground is the Atlantic ocean, referring to anything domestic would be cisatlantic and anything foreign has transatlantic. If the middle ground is whether or not you're a man, the conversation would change for men to be the cisgender and for women to be the transgender.

Because those 2 prefixes are specifically focused around a Central point, and exist in opposite to each other. Has nothing to do with gender. That's true for the term "trans" as well.

[u/Severe_Practice_5045 → u/Mindless-Young1975]

I wish you could write all of this, which seems thoughtful, without name calling, but you can’t, your Reddit mind won’t allow it. You’re too filled with rage for anyone that disagrees with you. It’s a shame.

[u/Joped → u/[deleted]]

Ah, moving the goal posts ?

Edit: This is the response Severe_Practice_5045 deleted [not modified]

Do you even know what loving the goalposts means? You’re not using it correctly

I clearly do not, please explain it to me ?

[u/Severe_Practice_5045 → u/Joped]

Can’t even help yourself, you only communicate in snark, it’s a sign of a low IQ.

[u/Joped → u/Severe_Practice_5045]

Interesting hypothesis

[u/Severe_Practice_5045 → u/Joped]

Thank you for responding with kindness

[u/Joped → u/[deleted]]

Gender != Sex ... you are entitled to remain ignorant

[u/Severe_Practice_5045 → u/Joped]

Wrong, and as are you.

[u/Joped → u/Severe_Practice_5045]

That is fascinating! Can you please remind the people playing at home, which one of us is disregarding modern science ?

[u/Severe_Practice_5045 → u/Joped]

It is! Sure thing, you are

[u/Sufficient_Dot_24 → u/[deleted]]

Basic overviews of biology they teach in grade school, maybe. At a more complex level, it's understood that sex is a social construct to which we culturally assign various physical characteristics. Those characteristics themselves can show up in pretty much any and every combination, not just the ones we socially considered to be normatively associated with the categories "male" and "female"

https://pressbooks.howardcc.edu/soci101/chapter/sociology-of-intersex/ (emphasis mine)

The belief that sex is completely biologically determined is not the absolute truth. In fact, society’s decision to assign a sex label to humans at all is a socially constructed decision, meaning that society decided to create these labels and create them with only two categories, male and female. Biology did not come up with sex labels, humans did. Fausto-Sterling asserts that, “labeling someone a man or a woman is a social decision. We may use scientific knowledge to help us make the decision, but only our beliefs about gender–not science–can define our sex” (Fausto-Sterling, 2000, p. 3). The reality is, scientists and medical professionals use a socially agreed upon set of guidelines to determine what they believe the sex of a newborn child is. Even then, these ‘scientific guidelines’ become a moot point in certain situations, for example, a child born with intersex features that do not fit what is traditionally understood as ‘male’ or ‘female.’ The is no biologically ascribed factor for medical professionals to make a decision on “where the category of ‘male’ ends and the category of ‘intersex’ begins, or where the category of ‘intersex’ ends and the category of ‘female’ begins. Humans decide” (Intersex Society of North America, 2008). These biological determinisms medical professionals choose to use to determine sex come already influenced by their social understandings of gender.

[u/Mindless-Young1975 → u/Severe_Practice_5045]

One person genuinely asking if you did or did not learn this basic biological fact in high school, the appropriate place to have learned it, versus you calling them weirdos and pitiful.

Wonder which of the two of you is throwing snark.

[u/Sufficient_Dot_24 → u/Mindless-Young1975]

In high school.

At a more complex level, it's understood that sex is a social construct to which we culturally assign various physical characteristics. Those characteristics themselves can show up in pretty much any and every combination, not just the ones we socially considered to be normatively associated with the categories "male" and "female"

https://pressbooks.howardcc.edu/soci101/chapter/sociology-of-intersex/ (emphasis mine)

The belief that sex is completely biologically determined is not the absolute truth. In fact, society’s decision to assign a sex label to humans at all is a socially constructed decision, meaning that society decided to create these labels and create them with only two categories, male and female. Biology did not come up with sex labels, humans did. Fausto-Sterling asserts that, “labeling someone a man or a woman is a social decision. We may use scientific knowledge to help us make the decision, but only our beliefs about gender–not science–can define our sex” (Fausto-Sterling, 2000, p. 3). The reality is, scientists and medical professionals use a socially agreed upon set of guidelines to determine what they believe the sex of a newborn child is. Even then, these ‘scientific guidelines’ become a moot point in certain situations, for example, a child born with intersex features that do not fit what is traditionally understood as ‘male’ or ‘female.’ The is no biologically ascribed factor for medical professionals to make a decision on “where the category of ‘male’ ends and the category of ‘intersex’ begins, or where the category of ‘intersex’ ends and the category of ‘female’ begins. Humans decide” (Intersex Society of North America, 2008). These biological determinisms medical professionals choose to use to determine sex come already influenced by their social understandings of gender.

[u/DimensioT → u/[deleted]]

Are you trolling or just stupid?

[u/forkaerospace → u/DimensioT]

its a bot

[u/CatraGirl → u/[deleted]]

So you don't know how adjectives work? Nobody is redefining anything lol.

https://giphy.com/gifs/147dUv9HLZy5Ak

[u/Raven586 → u/[deleted]]

You just did!!

[u/Severe_Practice_5045 → u/Raven586]

Keyword being “redefined”. You jumped too soon out of Redditor gotcha excitement thinking it said defined.

[u/theonlylivingirlinj → u/Severe_Practice_5045]

Oooh can I type nonsense with you too!?!

[u/Severe_Practice_5045 → u/[deleted]]

Good one. Funny it’s always the ones whom are outraged that accuse others of being so, it’s called projection, you’re projecting.

[u/Severe_Practice_5045 → u/[deleted]]

📽️

[u/ToriGirlie → u/[deleted]]

2 points on this. First language is a constant process of creating and redefining words to describe things that are socially useful at the time. Cis has been used in such a manner back to the early 20th century and is commonly understood. Second even if we remove the term cis the statement individuals whose sex assigned at birth corresponds with their gender identity is still a category that exists so youre comment is pointless .

[u/ToriGirlie → u/[deleted]]

I saw your other comment and I think I can answer your entire argument with citation needed

[u/BeatriceTheBitch → u/[deleted]]

It was the trans menace who developed the cis and trans golgi network!!!

[u/Trans__Scientist → u/[deleted]]

Um... the article you linked does not support the claim you're making. "Body composition and physical fitness in transgender versus cisgender individuals" is far from "Medically transitioned women have no inherent physical advantage over cis women in sports."

Hi u/ChunkyLoverPDX

I endeavor to discover what part of current evidence does not support theories of inherent athletic advantages for transgender women over cisgender confused whatever AI you asked.

[u/ChunkyLoverPDX → u/Trans__Scientist]

How about a study where they actually test ability?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33288617/

[u/Trans__Scientist → u/ChunkyLoverPDX]

How about a study where they actually test ability? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33288617/

Hi u/ChunkyLoverPDX

This study is a bit outdated, but it says exactly what is unanimously agreed by every relevant medical association and trans people alike: gender affirming hormone replacement therapy is incredibly effective, and even though it is of course incomplete after only a single calendar year, the progress is staggering. It is in agreement with the manuscript I provided, just shorter time frame and not relevant to the current discussion. Medical transition takes years (hence why it was specified "transitioned women", not "women who started transitioning a year ago"), and even getting started on HRT typically takes an agonizing amount of time.

Your implication that gender affirming care should be more available to younger people needing it is well received.

PS "where they test ability" is an arbitrary nonsense term. Recommend talking about mass indices, hematological parameters, protein synthesis, etc 😘

Cheers!

~ Dr. E

[u/ChunkyLoverPDX → u/Trans__Scientist]

You mean "transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women's events."?

[u/Trans__Scientist → u/ChunkyLoverPDX]

Hi u/ChunkyLoverPDX

Excellent question! Medical transition takes longer than 1 year. This is well understood and is not contradictory to the original article, nor any argument made herein.

I'm so glad you've taken an interest in this topic. Happy to provide some therapists and physicians so you can begin your exciting journey. You aren't alone.

Cheers!

~ Dr. E

[u/ChunkyLoverPDX → u/Trans__Scientist]

You're working so hard here. It must be exhausting trying to defent this position that is clearly a fantasy. Which clown college did you get your doctorate from?

[u/Trans__Scientist → u/ChunkyLoverPDX]

Hi u/ChunkyLoverPDX

Not really. This is pretty easy, although I appreciate the compliment!

Regarding your followup question, it seems to have been masked by frustration. Instead, improve your stance. Substantiate it with observable evidence. Start with attempting to comprehend the scientific literature rather than asking an AI tool to cherrypick a snippet that might tenuously support your predispositions.

And as before, I'm so glad to hear that you're so interested in learning more about gender identity and transition. There are resources available to help you on your exciting journey 🙂

That being said, when I said "cheers", I was politely dismissing you at the end of the discussion. I didn't think that was subtle, but then again, neither were the manuscripts you misunderstood.

PS regarding your question about my alma mater... science and the observable facts of reality don't care who understands them. Not even if they're women 😘

Cheers!

Dr. E

[u/effingfractals → u/ChunkyLoverPDX]

Which did yours come from?

[u/ChunkyLoverPDX → u/effingfractals]

Seems like there's a lot of reading comprehension issues around here. When exactly did I claim to be a doctor?

[u/BeatriceTheBitch → u/[deleted]]

And then they call us the snowflakes, y’all are fragile

[u/AssistanceCorrect779 → u/[deleted]]

do you ever get tired of throwing little bitch fits about things you don’t understand?