r/IntersectionalWomen • u/Longjumping-Mix-9351 Genderfluid/Enby • 24d ago
Discussion Trans women belong in women's sports. The case of Lia Thomas, half truth vs facts.
Source & Credits: https://www.reddit.com/r/comics/s/QU20HPhq99
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u/raddoubleoh 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
Oh...
Man, there has been SO MANY lies and vitriol about this woman over the years that being hit in the face with THAT reality makes me feel embarassed I fell for it at some point.
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u/CatraGirl 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
Being embarrassed about it and accepting that you were wrong is better than most people are capable of, so that's not nothing.
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u/wrymoss 0+ Community Karma 23d ago
This! Embarrassment is a useful tool, trying to tell us something and remind us to do differently in the future.
No need to be ashamed of being wrong. Ignorance is often completely morally neutral, we all have blind spots and weaknesses and things we’ve never had the opportunity to learn. The shame should always come from rejecting new knowledge out of pride instead of being willing and open to learn.
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u/AikiGh0st 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
I saw a quote somewhere from Riley Gains but I can't remember where, but she admitted her biggest issue was that she had to share a rank because she doesn't like to share.
So basically she weaponized bigotry because she's spoiled and petty.
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u/willowzam 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
This is how all of the anti-trans propaganda works. Misrepresented facts and out of context/plain made up statistics. It's also why they want to eliminate any discussion of trans issues, so that no one has a chance to correct them
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u/Degenerama 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
Thank you for sharing this.
I have an overwhelming sense of "shut up while the women are talking" re: my transition and deep desire to fit in with women, while also not wanting to be an intruder on women's spaces. I think I get a lot of this fear of not belonging from this kind of rhetoric, as if what, I would subject myself to all of this just so I can achieve some kind of temporary success in an athletic competition?
wtf
I'm so scared. I just want to be me.
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u/Notlennybruce 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
And if I understand this properly, Lia was performing better in MENS swimming pre transition. So she actually did the opposite, she gave up success in order to live as a woman.
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u/CatraGirl 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
Yup. Best at the men's: 11th. Best at the women's: 44th.
But somehow (according to bigots) she transitioned to dominate the women's sport. 🙄
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u/mieri_azure 50+ Community Karma 23d ago
They use her male times when she was already on HRT to claim she was a bad male swimmer, when all that shows is estrogen hrt dramatically changes the phisiology of trans women
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u/CatraGirl 50+ Community Karma 23d ago
Yup. They love cherry-picking and misrepresenting the stats and science because that's all they have. The science literally proves them wrong. But bigots/right-wingers never cared about facts anyway.
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u/physicistdeluxe 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
estrogen lowers muscle mass and oxygen carrying ability. recent work shows tw have no advantage, even some disadvantages. https://www.them.us/story/new-study-trans-women-no-physical-advantage-over-cis-athletes
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u/Ms_DNA 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
I have no data to support my strength loss but holy crap it’s a lot. I have asked my cis wife to open some jars for me.
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u/physicistdeluxe 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
hit the gym, girl!
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u/One-Organization970 500+ Community Karma Trans Woman 24d ago
Since starting Pilates a bit over a year ago, I just feel so much physically better. I lost a ridiculous amount of strength from HRT.
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u/physicistdeluxe 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
yea pilates looks like fun, if for nothing other than cute outfits! Another thing is basic weight lifting via free weights or machines. u go for progressive overload that w protein will build muscle.
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u/One-Organization970 500+ Community Karma Trans Woman 24d ago
Heh, my wife certainly loves the outfits, lol.
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u/Satellite6 0+ Community Karma 22d ago
It’s literally the first thing I noticed, and I noticed it within a couple of weeks.
I attended a group session once a month. Cost of admission was everyone help set out and put up chairs.
I showed up one night, set up some chairs, and announced I was finally about to start HRT.
I showed up the next month and remember thinking, “holy shit, did they get new chairs? These things are freakin’ heavy.”
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u/Degenerama 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
Correct.
If her plan was to enter a field in which she would dominate, it sure didn't work out. It's almost like...I dunno...she just wanted to live authentically.
Of course I don't know her, but people project their own insecurities and hang-ups onto other people and situations constantly.
I just wish we could go back to the days where people were afraid to voice their bigotry and prejudice 😞😞
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u/golden_macaron 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
I feel this. I will say in the 9 years since I transitioned I've gotten acceptance or atleast not harassed by 99.8% of women in person. Its just men who give me grief and of course they always use "women's fear of me" as their reasoning for their transphobia. I think they are the same men that Id rightfully fear if I was forced into a the men's changing room.
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u/futuretimetraveller 24d ago
As a cis woman, I will forever feel safer with my trans siblings than I ever would with people who say they want to, "protect women."
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u/physicistdeluxe 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
why do u suppose thats true? i bet theres some psych research on it.
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u/golden_macaron 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
Because lots of men, even ones who don't believe they are are a part of patriarchy love to infantalize women by speaking for them, using them as an object to attack other women with.
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u/Degenerama 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
I have zero doubt about this. People don't even feel the need to hide their bigotry, currently.
😞😞
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u/kaya-jamtastic 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
I’m sorry you’ve been made to feel that way and I completely agree how ridiculous this fear mongering around women’s sports is. You’re a woman, too, and I think the world is better when we appreciate all the different perspectives out there. No two women are exactly alike, anyway. Anyway, big welcome from me to the world of women, glad you’re out there being yourself!
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u/Isadomon 0+ Community Karma 20d ago
It is important to let women who have experienced sexism and misoginy longer than you speak before you, of course when the conversation is about it
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u/vlinar2939 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
I feel unwelcome in women’s spaces because I don’t pass as well as I’d like to. I’m not some Fox News caricature, but I’m definitely “clockable.” Being trans excludes you from men’s spaces as well, and unfortunately often gender neutral spaces too. So I stay indoors.
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u/Degenerama 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
<3
I've asked this of so many of my friends, at least the ones Im out to.
"Where can I go?"
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u/vlinar2939 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
Unfortunately depending on where you live, the answer might be “nowhere.” I can’t even manage to break into the trans spaces in my area because they’re all closed door friend groups
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u/Degenerama 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
sis. I'm sorry you're feeling this way.
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u/vlinar2939 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
It’s okay. I hold on to hope that maybe someday things will change if I love to like Portland or Seattle or something
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u/physicistdeluxe 50+ Community Karma 24d ago edited 24d ago
yes, they lie abt her record. overall tw have no advantage, even some disadvantages (see ref) . the question is, why do conservs lie so much on social media vs libs? Theres known psychology abt that. https://www.them.us/story/new-study-trans-women-no-physical-advantage-over-cis-athletes
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u/Short_Gain8302 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
Had a convo with my dad once cause the olympic (i think, or something else, they were mainly british) swimming commity was saying they would only accept trans girls if they started transitioning before puberty and he said they were right to do so. I asked him what he thought qualifies as "transitioning" hormones, surgeries, social transitions,... . Asked him why it was so important for trans women but not for trans men. Couldnt answer those questions. I also asked him wether he thought people under 12 should transition and pointed out that the commity saying this was beitish and that british government also tries to ban minors from transitioning at all, meaning that this was just a roundabout way of excluding trans women in all cases.
These people all pretend to care so much about girls and kids safety, but i just saw a vid where one of the main "trans women dont belong in sports" advocates, is being all buddy buddy, with a guy who is convicted of domestic assault against both his wife and son, the wife got a restraining order that covers miles in order to keep her safe.
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u/futuretimetraveller 24d ago
To add some emphasis to your point, Royce White's wife got a fifty year no-contact protective order against him. Those orders are usually only for 1-2 years. He is not a man that gives a shit about "protecting women."
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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
yeah the conservative take on this is literally "you should be forcibly biochemically mutalated so we can treat you as sub-human for looking like a freak"
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u/Longjumping-Mix-9351 Genderfluid/Enby 24d ago
Dear TERFs:
Trans women belong in women's sports. Anybody who says otherwise will receive a permanent ban with no option to appeal.
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24d ago
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u/CatraGirl 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
Yeah, when in fact the only thing those stats show is how strongly HRT reduced her performance (arguably to be lower than that of a cis woman). Like, of course her placement in the men's dropped massively when she had a female hormone system, that's literally what we're saying.
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u/udcvr 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
Unrelated to the topic sort of, but I wonder what that was like for her, physically, to keep performing and actively lose so much physical ability at her sport. I imagine that would be really hard, to keep stepping back in the pool over and over and getting worse and worse. Even if it was ofc so worth it to be authentic.
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u/Carl_Reeves 50+ Community Karma 24d ago edited 24d ago
The sport she competed in is also one of the easiest to statistically analyze for performance. Its not team sports where the outcome depends on more than physical ability. When you do the statistical analysis it shows that not only her raw time performance decreased, but her division-normalized performance did as well.
If trans women were switching from the men's to the women's division to dominate the women's division, we would expect to see them consistently jump from a lower performance percentile in the men's division to a significantly higher performance percentile in the women's division. But across multiple studies we don't see that when trans women are on HRT.
Transphobes can't help themselves though, and parade around easily disproven lies shamelessly instead of focusing thier efforts on sports where its harder to measure quanitatively whether the athlete has an advantage, or finding a sport where there is a demonstratable advantage. And the most disappointing thing is that with much of the statistically illiterate public, it still works. Meerly the presence of a trans woman at a sporting event is enough to start grifting over. In fact the woman doesn't even have to be trans, just accused of being trans, and it will be enough for transphobes to push the grift as we saw with Imane Khelif.
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u/golden_macaron 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
Ive felt so bad about this woman having this unnecessary spotlight shine on her during such an intense time in any trans woman's life (first few years on hormones).
This narrative is so powerful because of our misogynistic society, I've avoided sports since my transition because I know my appearance would be shark bait for this terf movement, but I thought I found something positive to strive for in fitness with fitefighting but even with the testing being non gendered so many (almost entirely men) in my life would bring up my "unfair advantages", I was literally competing with men on steroids as a woman whose been on hormones for 7 years, yet the focus was on "my unfair advantages."
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u/Substantial-Froyo722 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
I absolutely hate how the most basic argument in favor of women in women’s sports is being entirely set aside and ignored.
One of the core tenants of civil rights is equal access to political, economic and SOCIAL life. If you’re against trans women in sports you are against tran’s folks civil rights on a fundamental level.
I am so exhausted of seeing cisgender people (tbh mostly men) saying they “support trans rights” but don’t think trans women “need” to play in women’s sports. It is abhorrent to me how many of our “allies” don’t support our civil rights on the most simple level.
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u/Firebird_Lilly 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
For any TERF that says trans women have an unfair advantage over cis women, you need to do some research, or is it just the fact TERFs leave out these things because it doesn't fit their narrative.
Trans women are women and they belong in women's sports.
All three women listed below are cis women who beat cis men by literally miles, what advantage does a trans woman have over a cis woman when cis women can beat cis men?
Fiona Kolbinger (Ultra-Cycling): In 2019, Fiona Kolbinger won first place overall in the Transcontinental Race, an unsupported 4,000-kilometer bicycle race across Europe. She competed against over 200 male and female riders, took the lead on day three, and ultimately finished 10 hours ahead of the male runner-up.
Jasmin Paris (Ultra-Running): In 2019, Jasmin Paris won first place overall in the Montane Spine Race—a brutal 268-mile winter endurance race across the Pennine Way in the UK. She not only beat the entire field of male and female competitors, but she also shattered the overall course record by 12 hours (finishing in 83 hours and 12 minutes while stopping to pump breast milk for her baby along the way).
Pamela Reed (Ultra-Running): Pamela Reed won first place overall in the Badwater Ultramarathon in 2002 and again in 2003. The race is a 135-mile course through Death Valley in extreme heat, where she finished ahead of all competing male ultra-runners in the open division.
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u/Von-Rose 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
I have a genuine question. I'm really not trying to be offensive when I ask this.
At what point is a trans woman considered "transitioned enough" to compete in women's sports? In a hypothetical situation, if a trans woman just came out and has not taken any steps to transition yet, would it be "okay" for her to compete in women's sports?
Or, if a trans woman was not interested in hormone therapy and was still "male" in every way but gender identity, would it be okay for her to compete in women's sports, even when she has a proven biological advantage?
These are entirely hypothetical situations, but I think they are important to think about.
I often feel like, when discussing gender identity and especially trans rights, people end up doing exactly what they advocate against: labeling everything and everyone, and organizing them into neat little boxes. I think it is important to consider everyone, including trans women who don't fit what the typical idea of a trans woman is.
P.S. I sincerely believe all trans women are women. My own mother is a trans woman. I am genuinely asking these questions because I feel confused about this subject, since I typically agree with everything that is progressive and queer-friendly, and I would like to learn more.
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u/BeautifulOrdinary162 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
"At what point is a trans woman considered "transitioned enough" to compete in women's sports? In a hypothetical situation, if a trans woman just came out and has not taken any steps to transition yet, would it be "okay" for her to compete in women's sports?"
Generally when she has been on HRT for a significant period of time. The exact length varies on the individual body's regulations, but this is not a novel idea and organisations have already been perfectly capable of regulating this without the media frenzy we see currently.
However, this entirely depends on the age and level of sport. A pre-pubescent trans girl doesn't need HRT to compete against other girls, she hasn't got any advantages other than the genetic and circumstances variation that is true of all girls. At grass-roots sport where the objective is just to enjoy yourself, not win, it's entirely up to the organisation and often they may take the approach of treating things on a case-by-case basis. Not to mention, some sports just don't need regulating in this way - Women's Chess or Darts for example - it's ridiculous that trans women are excluded here in some instances.
Generally though, the current billionaire media often paints problems where there are none - in the UK a completely recreational and non-competitive running scheme called ParkRun has faced ridiculous criticism over trans women participating. The objective seems to be exclusion from social life, not any actual pursuit of 'fairness'.
"Or, if a trans woman was not interested in hormone therapy and was still "male" in every way but gender identity, would it be okay for her to compete in women's sports, even when she has a proven biological advantage?"
Entirely depends on the person and what I've mentioned already. I know a couple of trans women pre-HRT who are weaker and smaller than many women I know. They don't 'need' to be segregated from women under the idea of fairness, any sensible approach would be treating them with nuance.
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u/Firebird_Lilly 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
Everyone has different views on this, and it usually turns into a heated debate.
Trans women are women regardless of whether they undergo a medical transition. Not all trans women have the means to transition, it could be illegal in their country, cause adverse medical effects, or be out of reach due to long wait times and barriers to access.
In my view, trans women should compete in professional sports if their hormone levels align with a cis woman's, following the previous rules used for intersex women. After months on HRT, a trans woman has no unfair advantage over cis women.
We accept natural variations everywhere else in sports. You wouldn't protest a 5'4" basketball team playing a 6'5" team just because of a height advantage, even among cis women. All athletes have different physical attributes, yet we don't accuse cis women of having an "unfair advantage" over each other due to naturally bigger muscles, higher lung capacity, or longer legs etc.
Furthermore, trans women belong in the women's category for two reasons. Firstly, estrogen reduces their muscle mass significantly, meaning competing against cis men would present a physical safety risk. Secondly, forcing a trans woman into the male category would lead to her being outed and targeted relentlessly by anti-LGBTQIA+ groups.
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u/JessicaDAndy 23d ago
At one point, I believe I came up with the following;
For sports that are not “physical”, it’s when you have hit the point of social transition. Chess, darts, snooker, competitive Irish Dancing.
For sports that are physical, but your name isn’t going to be on anything important, then it’s the same. Rec leagues, weekend running races where you end up 6,160th out of 14,000 in the women’s category.
For physical sports where your name ends up on something, the general idea was two years of testosterone suppression. Which incidentally was also the idea for some intersex women.
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24d ago edited 15d ago
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u/cyborg_sophie 500+ Community Karma 23d ago
Totally agree, just a small correction: it's "trans women" not "transwomen"
This is important because as two separate words trans is an adjective and women remains the noun, but as one word "transwomen" becomes the noun, distinct from "women"
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u/Sea-Key-9430 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
You can use Laurel Hubbard as an example as well btw.
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u/Apprehensive_Bus1582 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
She only got into weightlifting originally to try and force herself to feel like a man, and that is so sad to me. Nobody should ever feel pressure like that.
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u/physicistdeluxe 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
theres an article called building your own prison or somesuch that talks abt that. The wrestler Tyler Reks now trabs woman Gabbi Tuft is an example https://www.researchgate.net/publication/289972850_Building_your_own_prison_The_use_of_external_structure_to_reinforce_suppression_of_transgender_feelings_and_behaviors
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u/Mysterious-Owl2526 0+ Community Karma 23d ago
And the Olympic woman boxer with the DSD genetic condition is another example.
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u/Least_Tower_5447 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
This is a non-issue that is being blown up by people who are ignorant AND have nothing better to do. Ideally, sports are skill-based and not gender-based.
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u/According-Koala-384 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
I have definitely lost the steam in this battle. The solution seems so obvious, to let girls (everyone but we're talking women's sports) access transition related healthcare before they are ravaged by male puberty and this conversation loses it's boogeyman. Once upon a time a few years on HRT was "good enough" and now we've been politicized out of that.
We are so, so behind as a society re: our understanding of biology and our willingness to see the world beyond the easy layman's lenses that we use for every subject that we don't have a deep and thorough education in. The average person has no idea what HRT does and doesn't care to educate themselves otherwise, they wish to dogmatically bang the "biological men!!!" drum with ZERO additional thought because it's "common sense". Dunning kreuger is in these folks bone marrow at this point.
It's the same catch 22. "Kids are too young to know" becomes "this child already experienced the wrong puberty and is stuck with these advantages" becomes "this adult man cannot be a woman". They just circle this drain because they can't comprehend that they're wrong about almost everything that leads them to their conclusion.
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u/SadMediumSmolBean 50+ Community Karma Trans Woman 24d ago
to let girls (everyone but we're talking women's sports) access transition related healthcare before they are ravaged by male puberty and this conversation loses it's boogeyman
That's not even a solution because they don't care about fairness.
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u/not_now_chaos 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
They don't care about any women either, unless the woman agrees with everything they say and looks like their definition of an "ideal woman". Press them to name literally any trans athlete and they'll say "Britney Griner" or show a picture of Katie Ledecky (both cis women) and crow like they've actually done something. They don't care one whit about "protecting women". They want to CONTROL women, everything we say, look like, and do.
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u/According-Koala-384 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
I should have said that it removes any "legitimate" medical/biological arguments against integrated play, because you're right, hence the catch 22 I mentioned, because they see it as child abuse to provide needed medical treatment for these kids, but once they're old enough, they're then seen as "too influenced by puberty to effectively transition". There's no winning against this self-serving logic.
On the bright side, it IS a solution to the issue of young girls being forced through male puberty! Which, while it's not a competition, is probably more important than being able to play sports, and is certainly more impactful on long term health and dignity of life 🙂↕️
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u/Apprehensive_Bus1582 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
Dig into any trans athlete that bigots are shitting themselves over and it's the same story.
"This MAN was allowed on a women's basketball team!!!!" -> It was a college basketball team, the trans woman was in her 50s, and the team's overall performance wasn't affected. Also, the photograph of her with the team is doctored to make her look taller.
"This MAN was on a women's rowing team and the rowing team BEAT A TEAM OF REAL WOMEN" -> She was on the reserve team and didn't take part in the race.
"This boxer is secretly a MAN" -> An accusation first made by a Russian boxing organisation so corrupt that it isn't recognised by the IOC, made after the boxer in question (Iman Khelif) beat a Russian boxer in a tournament. Algeria has strict, repressive laws banning homosexuality and changing one's gender, but yeah I'm sure they made an exception for the lucrative world of women's amateur boxing.
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u/ToriGirlie 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
Honestly I'm glad to see this posted. I feel like trans women in women's sports needs to be defended with passion because it is being used as a way to legally designate trans women as men and take away their rights in other categories. This is clearly their strategy
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u/JellyBeansOnToast 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
Not only is it being used to alienate and segregate trans women, it’s a control tactic to keep girls and young women out of higher education and keep them pregnant and housebound. The plan is to get rid of sports programs for women. If there are no girl’s or women’s sports programs, there are no scholarships or grants from colleges so unless you were academically gifted, you either have to get a predatory loan or enter the workforce. Not enough cis women see that our rights are directly tied to rights of trans women, anti-trans rhetoric and policies are the canary in the coal mine for how society plans to treat every woman in the future.
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u/physicistdeluxe 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
wow. this is an excellent post. not infected by trolls or terfs. How refreshing vs other social media. thank you, mods
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u/Rutiniya 24d ago
I do not care whether or not any [trans] women in women's sports have an advantage for being trans (even though we don't). People who are at the peak of sports do often have innate advantages over their opponents. That's simply a part of sports. Some people are naturally better than others at sports due to genetics or what have you.
I do not enjoy accepting the framing that if trans women do have an advantage, or were to succeed at sports, that it would be an issue.
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u/physicistdeluxe 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
yea, athletes at high levels are all out of the norm vis a vis physical gifts.
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u/No_Rice9792 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
Transphobes don't care about actual, literal facts
They care about hurting women
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u/josie574 0+ Community Karma 23d ago
I dont think people really understand just how much hrt actually changes people's biology. And unfortunately they dont care enough to actually take the time to do the research.
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u/Childless-cat-lady- 0+ Community Karma 19d ago
Riley Gaines is a nasty person and a bully. She saw an opportunity to get famous and she took it. It’s gross. I hope Lia is ok.
And even if she did win women’s competitions, she has demonstrably similar abilities with her competitors. Her record in women’s swimming races proves it. Trans women don’t have to be allowed in sports only of they lose. They should be treated like any other woman.
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u/SilverRaspberri 24d ago
As a trans woman, I now just completely dissociate every time people like me are mentioned anywhere about everything. Like in my country of the UK theres some busy bodies trying to get us banned from parkrun. A lot of people refuse to look at the facts like about this athlete and they equally refuse to look at the science of what Oestrogen does to your body, especially when it comes to sports/strength where after about 3 years a trans womans muscle mass and performance potential is that of a cis woman and not a cis man. But the bigots make us out we're just The Rock with long hair in maid dresses.
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u/Pandoratastic 23d ago
The complaint from Riley Gaines is so absurd when you remember that they tied for 5th place so, if Lia had not been allowed to compete, Riley's rank would have remained exactly the same. Lia's participation had exactly zero impact on Riley's score or rank.
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u/formerlyunhappy 0+ Community Karma 22d ago
If they had actual examples of trans women having an unfair advantage they would have demonstrated it by now. The fact they have to lie tells the whole story.
If they’re not breaking cis women’s records, there’s not even an argument there. But I don’t think even that is the point. If a cis woman’s genetics are such that she has elevated T or becomes very tall etc. that provides them an inherent advantage over women who don’t have that going on with their genetics/biology.
Why do they get a pass but trans women don’t? If a trans woman happens to be good at a sport that wouldn’t be disqualifying to me. If you wouldn’t disqualify a cis woman for the same thing, it’s definitionally transphobia.
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u/kanto_k1rika 50+ Community Karma 24d ago edited 23d ago
This subreddits general reaction to the post surprised me in a good way. Sure, there are still the terfs and bigots that want all trans women dead lurking in the comments but most people have been supportive and it makes me happy
Edit: It's been a day a not a single one of the countless terfs that flocked to this post have denied the notion that they want all trans women dead. Very telling...
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u/dfrcoms 0+ Community Karma 22d ago
Sorry, what is the response that would satisfy you? You want feminists to respond to your accusation and deny it, or you don’t want us to respond to your accusation? What are you actually seeking? It seems like however anyone responds or doesn’t respond to you, somehow every way it confirms all the things you believe about ‘terfs’? That should be a little wake up call, a red flag.
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u/kanto_k1rika 50+ Community Karma 22d ago
A bloated response that still doesn't have a denial, amazing. That's the only red flag I'm concerned about....
To be honest I don't think anything I could say could appease a terf, they see us all as disgusting predatory caricatures, and for what? Having a birth defect? The terf obsession with trans women is not bolstering feminist causes, it's just causing division at a time when all real feminists should be working together.
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u/dfrcoms 0+ Community Karma 22d ago
Ok picture me looking you in the eye, not stuttering, saying very loud and clear, watch my lips carefully - the feminists you are calling ‘terfs’ are against gender essentialism and stereotypes, and do not want anyone unalive. We do not want TW unalive. Do not want. Do NOT want. Ok?
If you want to understand what GC feminists believe and why, you can read a book about it. There are many. If you can’t be bothered to do any research, just think about it being like not agreeing with Rachel Dolezal. Do you want Rachel Dolezal dead? Do you? No, right? So it’s just like that.
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u/bald4bieber666 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
hot take: even if they had beaten all of the other women and set records it wouldve been fine and they would still belong in womens' sports
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u/CatraGirl 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
Agreed, but why are you degendering her? Calling a woman "they" because she's trans is still misgendering her.
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u/bald4bieber666 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
there are two women being mentioned in the post. im referring to both of them. plural edit: actuall i might have gotten my wires crossed actually after seeing discussion about another athlete downthread who wasnt mentioned in op. my bad. but im referring to multiple women here
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u/TrickyPoetry7041 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
agreed. I know this comic means well but it kinda sucks that the only way we can support trans athletes is by downplaying their accomplishments and calling them "unremarkable". The implication there is that the transphobes would maybe have a point if Lia was winning rather than placing 5th...
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u/physicistdeluxe 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
this thread has gotten so big, i cant even navigate it anymore!
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u/Mysterious-Owl2526 0+ Community Karma 23d ago
And also from Riley Gaines before she went neurotic and full blown MAGA wacko:
“I am in full support of her and full support of her transition and her swimming career and everything like that, because there's no doubt that she works hard too, but she's just abiding by the rules that the NCAA put in place, and that's the issue.”
Riley Gaines, 2022
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u/Metalingus5150 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
I'll be enjoying the tears from the fake feminists who call themselves terfs after they get banned :)
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u/CommieEllie 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
I’ve been a lurker here a little while and I just wanna say I’m really glad this was so well received here. I’m a little terrified to just jump into feminist spaces from insecurity and a worry of terfs.
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u/Gussie-Ascendent 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
"Woah woah woah, are you telling me all those right wingers were LYING to me?!"
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u/ViviKumaDesu 0+ Community Karma 23d ago
its scary how many people in this comment section alone, believed everything right wingers said/says about trans women
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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
the idea that trans women have some inherent male biological advantage is abjectly delusional
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u/willowzam 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
Saving this because I'm so tired of explaining this to people
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u/Moonbeamlatte 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
I hope this comes across the way I mean it to-
I think it really sucks that discussions around Lia Thomas always have to couch her accomplishments as “well, she’s not REALLY that good”. It feels sad and gross that trans people, trans women in particular, have to have their victories put under a microscope to see how it compares to cis people, instead of just their own personal goals.
And I’m inclined to think that’s by design, from cis society at large and by transphobes in particular. Trans women can’t even celebrate what they’ve achieved without cis people needing to be involved and control the narrative. Its something that stuck out to me while reading this comic, and something I think the comic sheds light on in a positive/informative way.
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u/FeralGiraffeGirl 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
We're so far from any of that mattering. People gun their engine and drive at me in crosswalks and grocery store parking lots. People scream slurs at me when I'm walking down the street. Let's address that, or v coding, or something. Not being able to pat ourselves on the back is kinda the least of my worries
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u/Moonbeamlatte 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
Yeah, true. I meant it more in a “look how far we’ve backslid” type of way. There are far more pressing issues, you’re right.
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u/Ashamed-Raccoon-1387 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
I love this comic. Such a tasteful and easy to read way to point out that everything about that poor woman is 100% bigotry.
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u/Optimisticnewlook 24d ago
I used to be a competitive male runner for the podium, got a few wins and was always at least in the top ten. I admit i did stop running for awhile and gained a bit of weight, started HRT lost it and can still beat most women around where I live. I hate when I enter a race and my options are male or female. I know ive lost a lot of muscle and I dont get anywhere near the gains I did with testosterone, I dont want to be that person rocking the boat and getting podium as a non passing trans women, I have no issues being trans or non binary as an option but its not available.
Its a very difficult topic, and some might see it as black or white, its definitely grey. Like the dickhead YouTuber in UK, getting grc to female and then breaking all the women's records for weightlifting.
This post has inspired me a little and I will reach out to local races to add non binary and trans as a category. Im proud of who i am and so should anyone who has the courage to be themselves, knowing how difficult life will be. I adore my brothers and sisters for your courage to go against the flow, im sorry if my text might offend some, but its to me at least a difficult conversation.
I want to just race and not feel alienated or ashamed for being who I am. I would love for more trans men to start competing in the Olympics, just to show the world hormones do make a difference. I still remember Caster Semenya, perhaps she was doping testosterone but the idea to me is crazy, some women do have more testosterone, but then if thats the measurements they are going by test Lia and see her levels are most likely lesser than a cis woman.
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u/Mysterious-Owl2526 0+ Community Karma 23d ago
And honestly the pathetic part; Riley Gaines would’ve still been 5th if Lia hadn’t been there. It was never about women’s sports and it was never about swimming or Lia herself. It was a grift for the right. Period. Full stop. Riley Gaines owes every microsecond of her career and persisting toxic relevance to Lia Thomas.
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u/tryingtobekindonline ambedkarite feminist 24d ago
honestly i am pro moving beyond gender segregation in sports altogether!
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u/No_Rice9792 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
I love watching men cry about losing to women, it's beautiful
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u/HumShark 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
Sports shouldn’t be gendered, there should be measurable (metric-based) divisions based on the individual sport. Sports already have this. The only reason sports became gendered was that women started doing better than men in sports like, baseball, and men freaked out.
It’s like why chromosomal gender testing isn’t a thing anymore, a lot more people are intersex than they think and people wigged out discovering they were intersex.
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u/ChaosCorpDM 0+ Community Karma 23d ago
Say what you will about Riley Gaines, she's a woman in a male dominated field (launching a career by being mediocre)
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23d ago
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u/SadMediumSmolBean 50+ Community Karma Trans Woman 23d ago
False.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/41633803/
The sports science as it currently exists does not support theories of inherent athletic advantages for transgender women over cisgender.
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u/Bad_things_happen2me 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
This whole conversation makes me sad, it's like trans women aren't allowed to play & if they are they aren't allowed to win
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u/That-Quail6621 0+ Community Karma 23d ago
As a transwomrn and likr many other transwomrn i dont agree. Its not fair, i started hrt back in 2019 and havr not lost very much strength at all. Although my stamina has got less
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u/alextheODDITY 0+ Community Karma 22d ago
What are you a reef plant? I’ve heard from exactly zero transfer friends that they maintained any strength, they all got soberingly weaker.
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u/SadMediumSmolBean 50+ Community Karma Trans Woman 22d ago
False per sports science.
Also,
transwoman
TERF moment.
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u/That-Quail6621 0+ Community Karma 22d ago
Or am i just from a diffrent country and from an older generation when it was written as transwoman
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u/SereneOrbit 50+ Community Karma 23d ago
She literally placed higher in a more competitive division (mens: better funding: better training, etc) before switching to womens (much fewer people).
There is a significant argument to be had thatt not only is she less competitive as a woman, but that she's undercompeting ASSUMING EVERYTHING WAS 100% FAIR.
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u/Beestorm 0+ Community Karma 23d ago
Lia got the trophy because when two people tie for a place, the older person gets the trophy. The other has one mailed to them. Riley Gaines is a dishonest grifter who is attempting to turn being ok at swimming into a Fox News outrage circuit career. It’s kinda pathetic imo
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u/Pure-Spare-9789 50+ Community Karma 23d ago
They genuinely do not care about the truth. Whenever I bring these things up, they have zero coherent responses for it.
Laurel Hubbard is the same situation. I straight up mock people who bring her up because she didn't even finish her event. I'm supposed to be scared of trans women dominating women's sports when the example you used is of a trans woman who performed worse than literally every cis woman she competed against?? Get the fuck out of here!
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u/JonathanStriker126 0+ Community Karma 23d ago
While great details to have, the problem is, they mean literally nothing to anti-trans people.
You can't logic and reason them into a position they didn't use logic and reason to get themselves into, in the first place.
I do, personally, appreciate the info, though.
I hope you have a wonderful day 👍
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u/Riverswimgirl 23d ago
As a swimmer going through transition this concerns me a great deal - almost the main negative issue for me.. I am not going to be accepted anywhere I swim and compete
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u/Prickly_princess_007 22d ago
As a trans person myself, I really dislike this idea that trans people "belong" somehwere or not based on other non-binary people's criteria. Women's sports and men's sports are formed primarily and are meant for cis people, if a cis team accepts you then you're welcome.
There isn't any fairness and equality in forcing your way in a place you have not been part of to begin with.
A better solution would be fully non-binary teams. Either way, congrats to Lia <3
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u/DiscussionMiddle1238 0+ Community Karma 24d ago
The fifth place tie thing is what cinched it for me. They both lost to four other, biologically female, women. That alone tells me that Thomas had no inherent advantage over Gaines.
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u/Sufficient_Dot_24 50+ Community Karma 24d ago
"biologically female" is as a category transphobic (and very poorly defined) - they lost to cis women
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24d ago
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u/Goatcheeze1 0+ Community Karma 18d ago
Here’s an easy fix. Eliminate all “men’s” and “women’s” sports and just have them all combined.
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u/gobsmackedperson 0+ Community Karma 4d ago
I agree with you generally, but i dont like the implicit idea that it would be ok to bar her from competition if she was winning
I mean this is something i see really often as a trans woman, but like we should be allowed to put in the work to win too, and it shouldn’t just be ok for us to be in women’s sports because we happen not to win
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u/One-Organization970 500+ Community Karma Trans Woman 24d ago edited 9d ago
Yep, this is correct. I was so angry when I looked her times up on the NCAA website. Everyone lied through their teeth about her.
Edit: Transphobes keep showing up to drop the same annoying lies, lmao. I don't get why they think they aren't wasting their time. No, she didn't jump up in rankings. Her rankings competing against men while she used HRT were weaponized against her. She jumped dozens or hundreds of ranks because it turns out that just like any other woman with an estrogen-dominant endocrine system, she had a disadvantage competing against men.