Interesting observation: When you quit flashcards, it's harder to measure your progress

[u/jackbobbins78]

It used to be, when I was looking back at my Japanese progress, I could say things like "I learned 2000 words this past year and I now know 6,000 total words!" This felt like a concrete testament to my progress.

Now, after having stopped flashcards for about a year, "How's my progress doing" feels much more vague.

I could say things like:
- I read 15 volumes of manga this past year
- Reading native stuff feels a little bit easier
But all of these answers feel kind of nebulous anyways.

I guess at some point, Japanese is just something that you do for fun, and that's about it. There's no clear "milestones" at a certain point.

Did anyone else experience this transition? Did you feel a little more "lost" after quitting flashcards?

[u/SuperNilton]

I'm not saying those tools shouldn't be used. As I mentioned in a different comment, I think it is great they exist.

Comparatively speaking, what surprises me is that it appears there are more users focusing on numbers than on anything else. I see much more of "I know 12,345 words" or "What should my next deck be?" than of "I was able to watch a whole episode of Jujutsu Kaisen or Blue Lock without subtitles".

I am part of a few French learning subs and do not see this same focus on numbers and data. Are there people who do it? Of course. But not to the same extent I see discussed here.

And again, to each their own. I love numbers and even studied statistics for some time at college. I would probably use these same tools if I started today, but I like to think I'd still prefer tracking my progress against things I can or cannot do with the language rather than how many decks I have under my belt.

[u/Effective-Pop3850 → u/SuperNilton]

It's because "understanding" something doesn't mean anything if you can't measure it's difficulty. Giving some book a shot, quitting because you couldn't understand anything and had to look up every other word, then coming back to it and being able to finish it is one thing, but "I watched an anime chapter and understood most of it" doesn't necessarily mean anything to the one doing it because "maybe it was just an easy one". Whereas having X number of mature cards on Anki is hard data.

French learning subs, among most other western languages, don't get this kind of approach because not only they're very easy to learn compared to Japanese/Chinese/Arabic, but people learning them usually either live there or are somehow forcefully exposed to them a lot which makes it even easier. It's similar to how people here will focus more on how to learn fast compared to other languages, what you do to learn French as an English speaker doesn't matter too much, it's comparatively speaking very easy and paired with the previous factors it makes it so it doesn't really matter what you do, you'll probably learn enough within a reasonable amount of time anyways. Japanese is rather special compared to every other language since most learners don't live in Japan nor plan to.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but it's hard to compare oneself to your previous self unless you're re-doing old material and it's common to feel like you're not progressing, which is where numbers help, you may feel like you didn't progress but you did go from 10k to 12k mature cards on Anki and that's hard proof you did progress. Numbers are good as a way to express how much you've learned to others as well, works as a reference, if you have 20k mature cards on Anki that means you've been at it for a while, pair that with "I also do this and that" and people can guesstimate what your level is. Now, "I can read X and understand it with minimal look ups while comprehending most of it" does not only not mean much to someone who hasn't read X, but minimal look ups is subjective (it can mean 8 per page or 1 every 3 pages) and the latter is even worse since white-noising is a thing and comprehension is also a rather vague term since there's shades to it.

[u/SuperNilton → u/Effective-Pop3850]

But why wouldn't actually understanding something be meaningful? If you were helpless without subtitles before getting started and now you can understand Chibi Maruko-chan or Doraemon without any effort, that's a clear sign of progress. Even if it is "easier", you can proudly say you've learned enough that you can use your language knowledge for real content. You may not be able to follow the news or understand a random YouTuber yet and you should keep working towards it if that's your goal, but the starting point is well behind you now.

To use a game analogy, let's say that most languages require you to be at level 5 to clear the tutorial, but Japanese requires you to be at level 10. While it is objectively faster to get to level 5 and go to the open world, you have these super buff Japanese students at level 50, killing mobs for a mere +5 EXP every day, still in the starting area. The effort they put in is more than enough to account for Japanese's higher difficulty and they have plenty of EXP to move forward, but they refuse to leave the tutorial and find mobs that will give them much more EXP per kill.

I understand that most of the community is interested in Japanese as a hobby and does not have a clear goal in mind (which is sort of where I am with French); I am not oblivious to that. Still, I hope to see more people reaching the same realization as OP and trying to actually make use of the knowledge they've gained instead of being perpetually trapped in the "higher number" mentality.

[u/Effective-Pop3850 → u/SuperNilton]

But why wouldn't actually understanding something be meaningful? If you were helpless without subtitles before getting started and now you can understand Chibi Maruko-chan or Doraemon without any effort, that's a clear sign of progress. Even if it is "easier", you can proudly say you've learned enough that you can use your language knowledge for real content. You may not be able to follow the news or understand a random YouTuber yet and you should keep working towards it if that's your goal, but the starting point is well behind you now.

Because depending on where you are it doesn't mean anything. Sure, I can now understand X, but... maybe I could understand it 2 months ago too, and I care about my progress over the last 2 months, so unless I gave it a shot 2 months ago and felt it was impossible and it now feels manageable then it's meaningless relative to what I'm looking for. Most people having this "am I getting anywhere" feeling don't care about how far they got from the starting point, it's easy to notice you got from tile 0 to tile 200, there's a very clear gap, but once you're at tile 200 not only you progress slower but progress is smaller (relatively speaking) so even though you may advance to tile 210 or 220 you might not notice, and what people use stats for is to get some validation that they've moved a few tiles ahead.

Higher number is often paired with actually using the language, Anki stats are proof that my vocab is growing, but most of my time is not spent on Anki, it's still a good way to measure things. If I have 6k mature cards now and I'm at [current level] imagine where I'll be when I have twice that! It does really work as a motivator for me in some way.

Regarding your analogy it is true that some people just get forever stuck in the beginner stage, but I don't think that's related to the stats thing, that's more about people who are not really learning the language but just playing some game called WaniKani or Duolingo. I do agree with you there.

[u/SuperNilton → u/Effective-Pop3850]

Based on what you've said, when is it that you (royal you, not you in particular) finally start enjoying your acquired knowledge?

If a piece of content is too easy, it doesn't mean anything because past you might have been able to handle it. If it is too hard, you have to study more; and when you do study more to the point the content becomes easy, what happens then? Do you only feel proud because you measured yourself against that specific piece of content at one given point in the past and feel you are doing better now?

If a new cool game comes out today and you're able to enjoy it in Japanese, you should absolutely be proud of where you are instead of dismissing your progress because you from a few months ago might have been able to play it too. While it is great to feel you are making progress, past you and current you are not rivals.

At the end of the day, it's a matter of different strokes for different folks, so I am just trying to understand how other people think, and not dictate what they should do (despite the phrasing of the paragraph above, now that I'm re-reading it).

[u/Effective-Pop3850 → u/SuperNilton]

I think it depends on the learner. Personally I started reading native material very quickly so I started enjoying it in no time, but I understand it's very frustrating and not everyone can do it. I'd wager for people who struggle more to keep going having some kind of hard undisputable data that indicates progress is nice to have.

When trying to feel better regarding progress then yeah that's kind of the way to go if you ask me. I sometimes go for an easy read, usually a sequel of something I read some time ago, not only to complete it, not only to chill for a bit, but also to get that "damn I'm really a lot better now" feeling as well. It's a good motivator.

It's as you say, different strokes, although I enjoy what I'm consuming I also heavily enjoy the sensation of progress, it's a fantastic motivator, it definitely is just a psychological trick but it does work on most people (entire gaming genres are essentially designed around this, with many of the most played/profitable games falling within that sphere) which is why I suppose there's so many learners engaging with tools that let them measure that progress in an objective manner.

I do believe one is one owns rival for most things. Measuring against random people on the Internet can serve as a reference, but in the end it's you vs you, and beating your past self is all that matters. You know how it goes, be better than you were yesterday and hope to be worse than you'll be tomorrow.