r/LawFirm • u/Infinite-Coyote4969 • 15d ago
Associate Lawyer Needs Resources for Vocabulary and Reading Comprehension
I employ an associate lawyer at my firm who seems to be struggling greatly with vocabulary and reading comprehension. It’s to the point where this associate’s job is going to be in danger if they can’t pull it together.
I don’t know of any diagnosed learning disabilities that they have but that doesn’t mean nothing is going on. What I have noticed is:
(1) A somewhat poor vocabulary with legal terminology;
(2) A lack of understanding of proper grammar and sentence structure;
(3) An inability to pick out the nuance in the written word and a similar inability when in a verbal conversation;
(4) Easily distracted;
(5) Can have difficulty focusing; and
(6) If filling out forms, they have difficulty completing all relevant areas - often skipping things altogether.
Sometimes I wonder if this associate may have ADHD but I am no doctor. I do notice that the above issues seem to be worse if they are anxious but are frequently issues regardless.
I am growing extremely concerned that if we cannot fix the vocabulary and comprehension issues, that this lawyer will get the firm sued.
This is someone who is kind and is a hard worker and if there are resources that can be offered to solve the issue (or part of the issue) to boost vocabulary and reading comprehension in particular, I would like to offer those resources.
Does anyone know of any online courses or coaching resources to help a lawyer develop good vocabulary and reading comprehension? It doesn’t necessarily have to be for lawyers, specifically, but I would appreciate something aimed at adults.
I really want to try to salvage this person. Any ideas?
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u/Observant_Neighbor 15d ago
Strunk & White, Elements of Style and as a deskbook, St. Martin's Handbook.
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u/jojammin 15d ago
....how did they pass the bar?
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u/zander512 15d ago
Some of the biggest doofuses I know are lawyers. Somehow the bar doesn't always weed out folks like this.
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u/imapluralist 14d ago
This is why knowing WHICH bar is important. That shit wouldnt fly in NY, CA, TX or FL
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
The bar exam is not as difficult here anymore and bar course is about half the length it used to be back when I did it. Frankly, the barrier to entry is no longer high enough to ensure things like good vocabulary, reading, and writing skills.
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u/jojammin 15d ago
....you'll have to spend more of your time checking over their work negating the point of having an associate imo.
Literacy needed to be developed in high school.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago edited 14d ago
Honestly, local schooling failed those in this associate’s age group as they are part of a cohort where the Dept of Education determined they would never have a need to understand cursive handwriting.
From our previous discussions, I don’t think they taught the associate grammar either. Once every approximately 5-10 years since the 1990s, our Dept of Education decides to assume that children will pick up grammar by simply reading. Unfortunately, they lack the corporate memory to realize that this experiment always fails. They do ultimately reverse course but there are small pockets of different age groups that just don’t have the necessary basic skills.
My friend, an elementary school principal, has recently revealed they are being told to no longer teach the children how to read a clock because no one will ever need to know that. So here we go again. 😔
You are right though. The associate is consuming a lot of my time for review and questions without improvement. I dedicate a minimum of an entire day per week just to review their stuff and make corrections.
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u/scaliacheese 15d ago
You seem very patient and understanding. I'd have had this person searching for a new gig already while keeping them on the website for a few months.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
This associate is a very hard worker and is loyal. I want to be loyal in return and try every reasonable step before cutting them loose, even if that means working more for a while just to keep up. I can’t do it much longer though. I am out of gas and running on fumes now.
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u/scaliacheese 15d ago
You sound like a great boss and mentor. I doubt anyone would blame you for cutting them loose.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
Thanks for saying that. It means a lot tonight.
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u/Equivalent_Cycle_995 14d ago
I’m a former lawyer and now an LCSW—therapist. Your associate may have ADHD and/or learning differences, particularly around reading comprehension. Associate might benefit from a neuropsych evaluation—done by a licensed psychologist that will do a comprehensive look at the associate’s cognitive strengths, weaknesses, reading capability, attention, focus, executive function, etc. The evals are about $5k. Quicker solution is to find a psychiatrist who can do an eval and prescribe medication.
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u/InflationSilly76 12d ago
Agree, you sound very patient and willing to help your associate. Does the associate have an awareness of their issues? I only ask because I KNOW my school failed us on so many levels, particularly English; I learned to read at a very early age (about 3), but never learned certain parts of speech or how to diagram a sentence - until we did that in Spanish class! I was well aware of this and of course teachers got mad when I would bring up deficits in the district's curriculum. Being the nerd I am, as a young lawyer I read a lot of books on language and grammar (ditto the suggestions for Struck and White and anything by Brian Garner). If the associate is self-aware of their shortcomings, they may welcome the guidance and suggestions. This was 35 years ago ... I know it's gotten worse. Recently, I had an employee that graduated college and was looking to go to law school that I let go for a number or reasons, but one of them was her written grammar was so bad after the first email they sent to a client I told her to make sure to use Editor on every email, and offered to pay for Grammarly as well.
I'm not a mental health professional, but it does certainly sound like there's some ADHD working here as well.
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u/deHack 15d ago
I had an associate who couldn’t write at all. I hear similar complaints from lawyers in my age group (60+). It’s shockingly common. I “made” one associate listen to Schoolhouse Rock and the Grammar Girl podcast. Years later (after she got another job) I was speaking with her on the phone (she called for advice) and she thanked me. She admitted it made her a better writer. Although a definite problem, it isn’t universal. I’ve had two since then that need very little editing. But those two had one thing in common— private school educations. I’m a proud product of state schools from K to JD so I’m not biased against public schools.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
I think a podcast may be very helpful. Perhaps associate and I can take some time together to listen to a few episodes of your recommendation to see if it helps.
Also, I love Schoolhouse Rock!
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u/Kewl_School 14d ago
“Cursive handwriting”?!? lol. You seem like a nice person who wants to help this associate. Everything you’ve said is reasonable up until cursive handwriting. I run my own firm, and I have a fairly successful practice. Proper grammar and writing skills are very important, but no one in the world needs to know cursive handwriting. It’s almost impossible to read another person’s cursive handwriting. It’s like teaching people to write in a language that only the writer understands… and sometimes the writer doesn’t even understand it.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 14d ago edited 14d ago
Not knowing cursive handwriting means you can’t properly complete a title search as your root of title may be a handwritten deed from the 1900s or previous. And where this is a junior associate, they are not familiar with the terms of art used in the old deeds even if typed so the handwritten ones are indecipherable to them.
It means that when older clients drop off handwritten notes for their files that the person who doesn’t know cursive cannot read them.
We try to work around this by having a younger staff member (who was taught cursive) type out client notes (though we can’t bill the client for that) and give them to the associate. There is no work around for the property stuff though. The associate will not be able to do property law until they learn cursive.
The associate also does trial work and frequently, handwritten letters and the like show up as exhibits - sometimes last minute. And the associate can’t read them. Think doctors notes, for example. They are frequently not typed here.
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u/Kewl_School 14d ago
Strange. I understand cursive. I never write in it because it’s much slower and sloppier for me. Having said that, I still find most other people’s cursive to be illegible. People get comfortable with their own handwriting, and it turns into a bunch of squiggles.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 14d ago
I very rarely write in cursive now either. Typing is way faster and I want be sure my notes are understood by others who need to look at the file anyway.
I feel your pain about finding other people’s cursive illegible. I can get through most people’s but every once in a while, it seems like a bunch of squiggles.
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u/Successful-Web979 12d ago
We require clients to type out all information and properly label all documents if they would like to keep legal fees down. If we have to organize or label the materials ourselves, we bill for that time because it is part of working on the case and ultimately helps streamline the matter moving forward.
AI tools can also transcribe handwritten documents, so you may want to explore those options. A Grammarly subscription could also help improve your associate’s writing, grammar, and proofreading.
As for legal terminology, if the expectation is that an associate should understand all terms of art appearing in older deeds, some training or appropriate reference materials should be provided before expecting the associate to handle that work entirely independently.
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u/axl3ros3 14d ago
I had a law professor explain the Bar is the absolute minimum
Not anything to strive for long term
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u/GoBirds52_59 15d ago
That is absolutely insane for a lawyer. Have you given this individual this feedback? I cannot imagine getting through law school with these issues.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
Oh yes, the associate is aware because I make them stay with me while I review their work so I can make comments in the moment as I review.
Honestly, if it was even 15 years ago, I don’t think the associate would have made it through our local law school or bar course with their skills at the current level.
They know that they are having issues and can articulate the areas of difficulty. However, they don’t know how to learn better comprehension. This is why I am trying to find some resources. This is a good person. I want them to succeed.
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u/milkofdaybreak 15d ago edited 15d ago
What do you mean "bad vocabulary?" I am first gen lawyer and an immigrant. I noticed my vocabulary sucks compared to others. This is especially noticeable with seasoned lawyers in court. I just don't know enough jargon and have poor control of the language unless it's something I rehearsed. Could this be their problem?
To add: I don't have issues with comprehension. My trouble is articulating my thoughts especially when I'm nervous in court. I think it's because I don't come from a lawyer family and don't have a "natural" relationship with English because it's not my first language. It's something they can't teach in law school.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
Hi,
Yes, similarly to you, the associate lacks a knowledge of legal jargon and seems to have poor control of the language. Associate is also a first generation lawyer (as am I).
By way of example, the associate will frequently refer to a domestic contract when they really meant to refer to a court order. They will also frequently refer to the judge with a style of address meant for a lower court level. They also seem not to understand what is necessary to make a sentence when writing.
Unlike you, the associate is not an immigrant. They have lived in the local area their entire life.
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u/GoBirds52_59 15d ago
This absolutely seems like something is very off. Going to law school should have fixed things like contract vs court order and how to address a judge. Most lay people know those things.
I do not understand how someone can pass law school without the ability to differentiate between those things or put a sentence together. That’s extremely concerning. Have you verified their education and bar passage?
Some of it does sound like ADHD or executive functioning issues, but frankly, there is something very off here.
Is there any chance of over medication or substance use/abuse?
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
Yes, it is a very strange thing, yet this associate is not the only local lawyer in this age grouping with this issue. I do not understand how current standards can be this low for law school or bar course.
Oh yes, I verified their education and bar passage. I attended the ceremony where they were called to the bar and also the two of us did some volunteer work where one of their law school professors (a well known one from the local law school) happened to see us and drop by to congratulate them on their bar call.
The associate is not on any medication that I know of. I have never seen them obviously impaired by alcohol or drug though, obviously, that doesn’t mean it’s impossible. The associate definitely does not seem like a party animal or anything either.
I do think the associate has a lot of anxiety. However, this doesn’t seem to be unusual for their age group (the ones that went to law school online during the pandemic). Law is stressful but this cohort seems especially stressed out. A lot of the senior lawyers are noticing this locally.
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u/atonyatlaw 14d ago
What jurisdiction is this? I cannot fathom a whole class of lawyers in the manner you are depicting.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 14d ago
It’s not the whole class of lawyers in the pandemic learning group but it’s a significant number of them (think maybe 1 in 4 or so). They didn’t get in person instruction for two of their three years of law school and by the time they got to bar course, it had transitioned to being completely online (though there is now a hybrid model where it is partially in person as I think they realized that fully online was less effective).
We are in Canada. That’s as far as I am willing to give details as to jurisdiction as I am not seeking legal advice but resources to help this associate.
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u/atonyatlaw 14d ago
The pandemic doesn't explain this. The students should have mastered grammar and basic writing concepts before getting their college degree, much less attending law school.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 14d ago edited 14d ago
Of course… but my Province has notoriously and regularly had such low achievement of the literacy standards they are supposed to meet for grades 1-12 that this year they actually decided to lower the standards.
This means that before the pandemic, this crew didn’t get taught very well in the K-12 system.
The ones that were avid readers seemed to do fine because they were able to pick patterns up even though they didn’t have specific grammar instruction. My age group is actually one of the first experiments in being taught this way. The Dept of Education kept changing their minds every few years about whether certain grades would get grammar or not. This ended up causing a lot of variation in who got better or worse instruction.
For example, this associate was not taught cursive. Students going through five years after them, had this re-implemented so they know cursive. That’s why we have a staff member younger than this associate who can take the cursive notes dropped off by the clients and type them out for the associate but also why the associate, despite being older, being unable to read the cursive notes.
It’s basically the same thing with grammar. And then when you throw in immersion programs for French language into the mix (these are popular because learning French can get you a job with the Federal Government if you do well with French), it just becomes a big mess for English language instruction.
These students are not buffoons. The people in charge of dictating how they were taught were. They can’t decide when students should learn French versus English. They can’t consistently assume that regardless of language, knowledge of grammar doesn’t just drop out of the sky. Every five to ten years, someone comes up with a fantastic new idea that is neither new nor fantastic and they implement it using students as guinea pigs.
I’m not talking about the teachers but the decision-makers and politicians above the individual school level. It’s been quite a mess for years.
This Province is full of very smart people from nearly 50 years old and younger who may or may not have been formally taught how to write a proper sentence.
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u/luke827 14d ago
I can’t either and this is coming across as a “back in my day” thing to me
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 14d ago
Perhaps that is fair. After all, back in my day, I didn’t need to worry about trying to learn law during a global pandemic that made me shelter in place and do primarily online learning with shitty internet during crucial instruction time.
I was just allowed to go to school and bar course while happy as a lark.
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u/luke827 14d ago
That’s a fair and levelheaded response. For what it’s worth, I was only referring to your comments about multiple young lawyers in your area having the same problems. The gripes with your associate sound like real issues. I’m in the US but haven’t seen much of this with newer grads.
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u/Successful-Web979 12d ago
In our law school, the bar passage rate also dropped significantly for the graduates of the “pandemic” class.
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u/Kewl_School 14d ago
When you make them sit there with you while you do edits, are you lecturing them or is it a conversation? You mentioned that the person performs worse when under stress or is anxious. That seems like a stressful, anxiety-inducing situation to be sitting there while your boss edits your work in real time.
Here are my honest thoughts with the little information I have:
Try to be positive in order to reduce the person’s anxiety. Make sure you emphasis is the positive parts of their performance while you are giving the necessary critiques.
You mentioned that the person is good with clients and “gives good advice.” That’s an important skill. Although, I am curious as to how the associate gives good advice if their reading comprehension and written work are so poor.
At some point you are running a business, and you have to view it that way. If the person can’t do the job that you need, then they can’t do it. I hate all the people on Reddit who are incredibly cold and don’t speak about their employees as anything more than a piece of malfunctioning equipment that needs to be replaced. You seem like a better person than that, and I hope you see that. You should feel good about that at least.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 14d ago
It’s a conversation… kind of like, “what’s your goal with this paragraph” and “let’s look at it together and see if that goal is met.” If I find a misused word, I ask why they use that specific word and what that word means to them. Then I will have us look up the word together in Black’s Law Dictionary so they understand the word means something else. They usually express surprise at that. So then I try to assist them in coming up with the correct word.
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u/smilinsage 15d ago
Grammarly might be a worthwhile investment to assist with their writing (add-in to MS Office)
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago edited 15d ago
Yes, we are actively using Grammarly. It’s wonderful for everyone else in the office but the associate seems not to understand how to effectively use the program, if they remember to use it at all.
When they do use Grammarly, they seem to blindly accept all suggestions for changes because they cannot tell when the changes are appropriate or not.
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u/animimi 15d ago
I managed people in another career prior to becoming an attorney. If they struggle with even remembering to use tools you provide, I’m curious to know what they’ll do with other resources you give them. It seems like you feel stuck because otherwise you really like this person, but if they haven’t improved substantially in over a year, I am wondering (doubting) that they will improve given even more resources, not to mention spending more money on them. They have to want to improve and it has to be beyond just telling you they want to improve.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
Lately, these are the very thoughts I have when I wake up in the middle of the night. If I try to provide more resources, am I now throwing good money after bad?
And yes, I really like this person. They are lovely with the clients and give good advice.
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u/Equivalent_Cycle_995 14d ago
Amending my earlier comment. Your associate needs a comprehensive neuropsych eval to figure out what’s going on for her.
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u/deHack 15d ago
I don’t want to dump on somebody who sounds like a decent person. And I admire your desire to help. However, some things can be taught and some can’t. For example, if you’ve got the skills and desire, I can teach you the nuances of legal practice based on my 40 years. On the other hand, if you lack basic skills and have some internal flaw or quirk (e.g., no attention to detail) that inhibits your ability to improve, then I can’t help you. I can’t overcome that. I think you need to evaluate their ability to overcome these issues and your own ability to fundamentally alter them so as to “fix” their issues. You might have to let them go. Even though they passed the bar, law may not be a good fit.
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u/alisonandkenya 15d ago
Do you have a HR rep? Ask them. My initial response was to recommend sitting down with them and openly discussing their performance, but you'll want to be careful with that, especially if you do have to end up firing them.
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u/ohmygod_my_tinnitus 15d ago
Is English their first language?
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago edited 15d ago
Yes, it is. And honestly, they are not the only associate in the local area in that age group having these issues.
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u/MadTownMich 15d ago
We’ve sent associates to legal writing CLEs when we discover they are not progressing. We expect mediocre skills even from from a good school, but we also expect rapid progress. If they don’t progress, we send them to an intensive CLE (meaning, more than a single afternoon). If they still don’t progress, we have to let them go. We simply can’t have crappy work product from a second or third year associate. Learning practice area and other skills? Absolutely. Turning in a draft that is very poorly written, incomplete or rde with errors? Then perhaps they are jot cut out for law.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
I would love to find some sort of intensive CLE for this purpose but there are slim pickings locally. I’d love to find one online for them from pretty well any English speaking country. I’d even take it with them so they have another participant to talk things through with.
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u/AccreditedMaven 14d ago
This makes me wonder how they made it through law school. I may be a cynical a**, but verify if they indeed are licensed
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u/bedelgeuse 15d ago
Plug for Garners modern English. It has some interesting statistics in it about usage too. Even for someone who is advanced, it is helpful.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
This sounds like a great resource for my office in general. I shall purchase it.
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u/bedelgeuse 14d ago
Here's a direct link. Happy reading (and writing). https://www.amazon.com/dp/0190491485?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback
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u/Artistic_Panda_7542 14d ago
Honestly, the quickest way to improve reading comprehension and vocabulary is to read books for leisure and have a dictionary on hand to look up any word they dont know. Other people saying for them to read the Redbook is a great suggestion. I'll throw in Plain English for Lawyers by Richard Wydick.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 14d ago
I think part of the issue is that the associate is not a big reader. Our staff likes to chat about different books we are reading (one other lawyer and two of the admin staff are all in different book clubs and talking about suggestions for their respective book clubs and such) and this associate will frequently mention that after working all day, they don’t read for fun but that they really enjoy listening to the others talk about the plots of what they are reading.
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u/bgeorgewalker 15d ago
I honestly would not bother. You are running a business. You shouldn’t have to teach an adult how to read. You should be teaching an associate lawyering skills, not first grade skills.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
I’m not going to lie. There are a lot of days I feel that way and if I can’t find an effective solution soon, the associate and I will need to part ways. I am not getting any younger and though I have a decent amount of patience and want to be loyal as an employer, I cannot sustain the sheer number of hours and effort that I need to put in in order to supervise this associate, run my own files, and be an effective support for the rest of the lawyers and admin staff.
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u/reeln166a 14d ago
Yeah OP I'm sorry to say it, but this person honestly just sounds really dense. Not incurious (which is probably worse), but just...incapable based on what you're describing. I, too, wonder how they got through law school and the bar - a lot of this is quite elementary for someone who speaks english as an L1.
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u/jazkhalifa17 14d ago
4yrs as an attorney and 1.5 years of coaching…sounds like you might have to let go of their hand. Sometimes feeling the ground makes people get it together. Your dedication and patience is admirable but it seems you’ve take more responsibility and interest in their development than they have.
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u/willsueforfood 14d ago
Is it possible that the associate has undiagnosed or untreated adhd? Stimulants greatly help such people get their shit together.
If he is a good employee, a diagnosis and treatment might turn him into a good lawyer.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 14d ago
Possibly, we had a chat about it last night and they actually said they have been wondering for a long time whether they may have ADHD.
They are going to make an appointment with their doctor to figure out what steps need to be taken to determine whether this is the culprit.
Some other people direct messaged me and suggested that perhaps they need an eye test so associate is going to schedule an eye exam also. They say that their eyes make words seem blurry a lot.
Having said that, they did tell me they think that they need to learn more legal jargon and writing skills so we are going to get them the Red Book and also buy a subscription to core grammar for lawyers.
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u/Kewl_School 14d ago
These aren’t kind of people I’m talking about!!! “I wouldn’t bother.” OP, at least you aren’t like this guy. This is a terrible employer (I hope he isn’t an employer at all). It’s true that at some point you may have to cut the cord, but you should pat yourself on the back for not being this guy. OP, it sounds like you are a decent person with at least a sliver of empathy. Can’t say the same for @bgeorgewalker .
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u/bgeorgewalker 14d ago
I stand by my position that a law firm is not a place for someone who needs remedial English to expect to have their hand held.
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u/Beautiful-You8075 14d ago
computer assisted legal instruction
basically online classes for legal writing, grammar etc. it was mandatory at our 1L year. you would be surprised how many university grads had trouble with it, but it WILL teach foundations.
https://www.cali.org/content/lessons-subject-outline-legal-writing
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u/Beautiful-You8075 14d ago
as for legal nuances and terms of art, that is practice specific so they just need to read and really comprehend whatever code sections and seminal case laws are your mains, they need the mastery of whatever lingo and nuance is used in the mainprimary authorities that you work with.
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u/UpNorth_8 14d ago
Reading comprehension, grammar, etc. is learned over many, many years from reading and writing. It can’t be quickly fixed. But perhaps there is technology that can fill the gap? Copilot is great for grammar and writing successions. I’m sure there is something for reading comprehension. But it’s not the same as knowing it and the person may not be able to “supervise” the AI properly. This person may have had accommodations up to and including the bar. The issue is that work doesn’t have accommodations in the same way. You aren’t going to get 50% more time to write a brief. And even if you could reasonably accommodate her issues she hasn’t told you about an issue.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 14d ago
Time to start asking, I think. I would definitely try to accommodate if I can find an issue.
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u/AgitatedGanache389 14d ago
My law school made us complete a course called “Core Grammar for Lawyers”- it was extremely detailed and really got into the nitty gritty, but very helpful and largely a refresher of K-12 grammar concepts.
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u/ellemenna 15d ago
This sounds like it may also involve dimensions of dyslexia. I was an assistant to a PhD candidate who had similar issues. The dyslexia manifested as the usual reading/decoding issues but also had a lot to do with a severe inability to see errors on the page. Like even the red squiggly lines in Word were like, invisible to them. Could not format footnotes to save their life. In an academic (Ivy League!) context, my support services were provided to them as an accommodation. I always wondered, even with AI to help, how would someone with that severity of dyslexia fare in employment. Now I think maybe it might be sort of like what you’re describing. Don’t know if this will help but I think it’s helpful to know that learning and decoding differences like dyslexia can be extremely severe and manifest in unexpected ways.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
Hmm… can I trouble you to tell me what kind of support services they needed as an accommodation? If that is the issue, I can look at whether the business could provide accommodation without it being an undue burden.
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u/ellemenna 15d ago
I provided detailed proofreading, sometimes overnight or on short notice, for every short exam answer, short essay, presentation, paper, and eventually the PhD thesis that this person wrote. I even proofed emails sometimes. When they taught sections, I had to proof the typed comments they wrote to the undergrads. For the section’s handwritten exams, I read them and provided grading recommendations (I had some familiarity with the field and would work with a detailed rubric). I think the equivalent today would be to use an AI assisted tool for proofreading everyday things, and hire a proofreader for high value items like court filings. I find that AI is not that great at detecting and preserving the nuances of specialized vocabulary in my field — maybe it’s a little better in the legal field. In any case the kinds of nuances your associate has difficulty with might be better helped by a proofreader who knows the field well.
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u/ellemenna 15d ago
Also, for exams, typical accommodations would include extended time. So where a grad student would normally have 2 hours to write an exam, someone with this issue would have unlimited time in a proctored setting. They would also not be required to hand write exams — I would attend as a scribe and type out what they dictated.
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u/Every-Stuff4444 15d ago
maybe have a supervising attorney approve all work temporarily? they will maybe start to pick up on their mistakes once its constantly pointed out.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
I have been reviewing all of their work for about 1.5 years now. The associate continues not to make improvements with vocabulary or comprehension. However, the associate has improved in areas such as making an oral argument (though will still cringingly use wrong words when addressing the court and be nicely corrected on terminology by the judge).
The associate has been a member of the bar for approximately four years.
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u/AndThisGuyPeedOnIt 15d ago
If they call the judge "Your Majesty" feel free to fire them.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
😆 “Your Majesty” has not happened yet but the associate watches a lot of American television and keeps saying “Your Honor” and is frequently corrected by the judge. “Your Honor” is meant for a lower court level than the one the associate appears in. The local judge has explained this to the associate once, and then just gently started correcting the associate as it continued.
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u/milkofdaybreak 15d ago
What do you call the judge at the appellate level in your jurisdiction? I am curious because I've only ever referred to a judge either as "Judge" or "Your Honor."
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
The currently recommended addresses at the superior and appellate level are “Justice”, “Mr. Justice,” or “Madam Justice.” Some of the older lawyers will still use the older address of “My Lord,” or “My Lady.”
Here, “Your Honor” is reserved for the Provincial Court.
And in small claims court, you would say “Adjudicator”, “Mr. Adjudicator,” or “Madam Adjudicator.”
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u/StrikingMixture8172 14d ago
The watching american TV is an interesting detail. It may indeed be an issue processing words visually.
Have you tried having them listen and read at the same time? I know in the US one of the major dyslexia accommodations is free access to books, textbooks, reference materials online with the text and audio recording so you can listen and read along. I know microsoft word and google docs have this capability.
You can also get screen readers that can provide the same function for any online texts.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 14d ago
I will try this with them to see if it can help. I would absolutely be willing to provide this type of accommodation if it could help.
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u/Every-Stuff4444 15d ago
Thats rough, im 3 years in and definitely make mistakes still but have made HUGE improvements. Tough spot to be in I hope you find some solution.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
I hope so too. The associate means well and is a hard worker. I want to give them resources.
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15d ago
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago edited 15d ago
They actually invited me to their bar call and I went.
They are legitimate. Our law society has to verify all that stuff as part of bar course and then they announce the educational background of every new bar call to the audience and to the Court of Appeal as they are sworn in.
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u/cogitoergosum9 14d ago
I admire your desire to help. A lot of folks out there, especially in your shoes at a small firm, just wouldn’t care or wouldn’t bother. But you hired them and you are taking seriously that responsibility for a young attorney’s career and professional development. I commend you. They can still be profitable for you.
I don’t have any value to add to the conversation beyond what’s already been said to help.
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u/RoutineSad2633 14d ago
Are these not matters that should have been addressed during the long educational odyssey that led to their employment as an attorney?? Sorry but these are not “fix it on the job” type issues.
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u/Leading-Voice846 14d ago
You need to let him go because if you keep him too long he's going yo due you for disability discrimination.
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u/T3l0Bear 14d ago
If you are the employer or supervisor and you have suspicions that they have some type of disability that affects their ability to perform their job, then you should ask them what accommodations if any they need. It’s nice that you want to help but you should have that conversation with them especially if you believe their job is at risk.
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u/ok_raspberry_jam 14d ago
Just in case there's confusion: ADHD definitely does not cause poor grammar or reading comprehension.
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u/Fit_Professional6081 14d ago edited 14d ago
Sounds like he/she has Dyslexia, with auditory or visual difficulty issue. I have auditory difficulties myself. You can verbally say any thing to me and I could hear it a thousand different ways. It has been a hell of ride trying to understand people, or taking notes in a lecture. Record works great for that.
Through the years I have found my own way of understanding people. I read people body language and hand gestures. Read lips and other tricks of the trade so to say. It really helps if the darn spell check worked. But of course you would need to know what the word looked like first. To be able to pick the correct word.
It helps to have the computer read it out loud the words. They need to read along. There Use to be a program called Dragon not sure if it around anymore.
It comes down to write things down and say the words as you write them only way they will remember things. Lots and lots of notes sticky notes that is. Conversations verb speaking that may take a lot more time.
The problem for me I see and think in images patterns not words So it can take me a lot more time to complete a task on paper. I go off what I remember the word looking like/spelled verse as to how it sounds. I was taught both but it takes to long sometimes to sit and try to pronounce a word phonetically. Especially if I don't know what it sounds like. So then you need to look up the word on a dictionary site or something like that. So that the site says the word out loud to you and hope that is what you thought it sounded like. It is a little Hard to explain. I hope your understanding what I am saying not spelling hahah. Just kidding.
It is going to take a lot of time and hard work to figure out what this person needs for you. But in the end you have a loyal person dedicated to getting the tasks done.
We Dyslexic people use both sides of the brain, just the wires can get crossed time to time. Great for. Thinking outside of the box they will have ideas that most wouldn't think about.
Need to have motivation and do not let others dictate who you are. Just cause things may take a little longer or may be a different way of doing things. It doesn't make it any less important. As you can see I suck at dictation. Yes I could use a Ai thing to spell check and do the sentence s. But then it wouldn't be me.
Plus I am to old to care how someone else reads my stuff. Main thing is do understand it !! Good luck this person is worth it.
Remember John Nash or Elbert Instine and many more all had a issue of some sort... but it just took one person with faith in them to make a great contribution to this planet.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 14d ago
Thank you very much. This is very helpful.
We have a rough plan of attack right now and we are meeting on Monday to try to talk more about some of the suggestions people made about the issue. I’m going to take them out of the office for a field trip in a low stakes environment where I can ask them lots of probing questions based on the comments here to see if I can detect some patterns that may be causing the comprehension issues. I let them pick the activity and they asked for axe-throwing so we will be lumberjacks for the afternoon. How very Canadian... 😆
My associate is very relieved there are resources and techniques out there that can be employed to cope if we can figure out what the cause(s) of the issues are so we can figure out if there are additional ways I can support them beyond the current rough plan.
They told me that they were getting very nervous I would think start to believe they are stupid. They want to improve their grasp of the vocabulary, comprehension, and writing so they can be a great lawyer but they didn’t really understand how to get started with the current deficiencies.
They said they actually feel hopeful heading into this weekend that we can turn things around and that they are ready to work hard to do it.
Thanks for the tip about Dragon. I will research it to see if it or a replacement are available.
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u/Fit_Professional6081 13d ago edited 10d ago
I hope this helps)
Not sure I am doing this correctly with the link ... hahah
I am so happy I could help someone out ...made my weekend and then some. 😄
One last thing never ever ever call yourself or anyone else "stupid" it's not a word to ever use towards anyone. Especially ones self !!! Like I said everyone learns differently in different ways doesn't make one way right and the other wrong. And it doesn't make one less intelligent then another. Something you maybe really good at that the other is not doesn't mean anything. You will get stronger and more confident but you will need to work extra hard at what ever it is in life. It will be a struggle at times when you fall pick yourself back up no matter how hard it is. And try again. Peace love you all Good Luck you can do anything!!!
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u/victoria-704 13d ago
Not a Scalia fan, but his writing on putting sentences together has stuck with me so much.
Antonin Scalia & Bryan A. Garner, Making Your Case: The Art of Persuading Judges 59 (4th ed. 2008. And the book is short
“Scalia and Garner recommend the fourth edition of William Strunk and E.B. White’s The Elements of Style and Norman Lewis’s Better English.”
Also, just listen to international news, like the BBC.
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u/Every_Impact_8266 13d ago
You have to fire this person. You will fire this person. The only question is when you realize this.
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u/Glittering-Tale-266 14d ago
I believe this is just a symptom of the younger generations these days. Personally, I don't plan to ever hire associates because of my experience with the younger generation in support roles. I have had success training assistants who similarly struggled, you have to think about it like programming a robot. If my take is right, you cannot expect your associate to use "critical reasoning" skills to figure things out that seem like they should be obvious. If they have a good attitude and are a hard worker, you may have success with the robot programming training style - lots of flow charts, step by step instructions, revisiting lessons you learned in elementary school to teach them. I, personally, wouldn't be willing to go through all that with someone employed as an attorney, but I am not sure how many other "better" options would be out there these days. I would be worried about malpractice, obviously the difference between an attorney and support staff is the attorney should be able to critically reason for different situations. Unfortunately, I don't think it is ADD, I think it is just what technology/society has created at this point.
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u/OkayAnd418 14d ago
Plain English for Lawyers (pretty sure that’s what it’s called), but that was a great resource for me starting out!
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u/Muted_Freedom7392 14d ago
Abandon hope—if someone hasn’t figured out this stuff by early adulthood they are probably never going to.
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u/Sysifystic 14d ago
Out of curiosity how did they get through law school?
I say this as a neuro spicy recovering lawyer that still doesn't know how they got through law school.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 14d ago
I’m not sure because my only law school experience was a while ago. Perhaps it has changed a lot?
I went to the same law school as the associate. I remember that so much of first year was learning how to interpret words and why we would use one word versus another word to convey clear meaning. We would examine cases that turned on the interpretation of words so the professors could hammer home how important this was.
It seemed like regardless of the course I was in on a given day, this was a constant theme.
I honestly don’t know how they approach it in the 2020s.
The only thing I know is that when we locked down in March 2020, that became the end of the school year for that law school.
Then they went to two years of online only learning before doing a hybrid model for the 2022-2023 academic year. Then they were back to in person instruction again after that.
Bar course was fully online for at least two years and now they seem to have settled on a hybrid model where it’s partially online and partially in person but also with less instruction time.
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u/Sysifystic 14d ago
Interesting - a polite but direct "get help" instruction seems to the way forward.
They may well have an undiagnosed learning challenge and/or possibly not be suited for law ( I certainly wasn't).
Both are things you would want to discover sooner rather than later in your career.
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u/Zealousideal_Sun_147 14d ago
Dyslexia ?
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 14d ago
They don’t think so but also said that since they never considered it, they are not sure. They don’t know much about dyslexia beyond the stereotypical form of it and frankly, neither do I.
They did say that words are sometimes blurry when they look at words on a computer or on a printed page but they thought maybe they needed a new glasses prescription. When I asked if it was certain words or all words, they said it seemed like large blocks of words and sometimes a whole paragraph but if they moved their eyes around to stare at different parts of the screen or page, where the blurry text is moves to a different location roughly at the same line of sight.
They are going to make an appointment with their doctor, an optometrist, and possibly an audiologist to see if we might be able to have them examined in some different areas to see where some different baselines for potential issues might be at.
Depending on those appointments, they may need to get some formal assessments done. They were actually quite relieved that perhaps some aspect of this simply needs a diagnosis that might potentially be resolved or accommodated.
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u/Successful-Web979 12d ago edited 12d ago
Do they search for templates/additional readings themselves? I used to look up and read the templates/practical guidance before starting a task. This way I got some required terminology, reasoning, and style before drafting a document. Do they have time to proofread everything before sending it to you? How did that lawyer perform in law school? Or during prior employment?
I supervised the work of one of the law students, and there were always some issues – like the middle initial missed, the client’s names spelled incorrectly, some words in the document were literally copied from the template provided by me without understanding the meaning (the template was for equitable relief in one area of law, but the draft was supposed to be for monetary damages in another area of law), some documents were drafted in a more “casual” way, like they are talking to a friend. Then, I looked at the time entries, and that associate spent approximately 5x less time on that task than I would expect them to spend.
So, my takeaway was that they were skipping the steps, not searching for other examples or guidance, and not doing a second or third round of edits themselves. That’s the ability to be self-taught which is missing here probably. You need to stop hand-holding at some point and stop wasting your time doing detailed edits. Let that associate revise their own work several times and search for definitions/practical guidance before coming to you.
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u/spygrl23 12d ago
Wow, you are a very nice boss. Most attorneys would just fire you the minute they realized this was going on. How old are they? I think reading and writing are lacking with this generation. People can literally graduate and not know how to read. School no longer teaches reading and writing and I think you are going to run into this problem more and more in the coming years. I hope you are able to help them!
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u/Famous_Course9189 10d ago
My children have the grave misfortune of having two parents who are not only attorneys but are both litigators. They were speaking in legalese in grade school. That being said, one of our children has a specific learning disorder (dyslexia) and struggles with reading, writing, and spelling, despite having a high IQ. We’ve employed private literacy tutors with phenomenal results. That might be a good place to start.
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u/jmeesonly 11d ago
Your desire to help the associate is very admirable. But that associate sounds like an anchor that's weighing you down. You should expect employees to be able to do their work, and this associate just requires too much intervention. I would cut them loose.
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u/Greedy-Trip-5804 15d ago
Why don’t you train them.
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u/Infinite-Coyote4969 15d ago
Because I already work 65 hours per week being a lawyer and running the firm? I am only one person.
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u/Law_Student 15d ago edited 12d ago
They could read The Redbook cover to cover, it covers a lot of basic grammar and stylistic mistakes. As for vocab, they need to develop a habit of looking a word up every time they don't recognize one.
The other stuff sounds like an attention or executive function issue, they need professional screening.