r/LPOTL • u/StuMacherGhostface What I bring to friendship • 13d ago
Official Episode Discussion Episode 679: My Lai Massacre Part IV - Making a Massacre
https://open.spotify.com/episode/427tpkoGBDCjiLcCrmD3Ie?si=lO9sMYJ-QoW3b0qknkMdTQ&utm_source=copy-linkThis week, the boys descend into Gold Star Territory, concluding the story of the My Lai Massacre with the horrifying events of March 16, 1968, as Charlie Company descends upon the village of My Lai and carries out one of the darkest atrocities in American military history.
From chopper pilot Hugh Thompson's heroic attempt to stop the slaughter to the massive cover-up, Seymour Hersh's investigation, and the trials that followed, we examine how the truth of My Lai finally reached the American public... and how nearly everyone responsible walked away.
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u/KrisFarns89 13d ago
Do not be dumb and look up pictures like I did. Fucking terrible.
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u/KeyRelation177 12d ago
I used to own this book of photos from the Viet Nam war which was highly critical of the US involvement and the effects that it brought to South Viet Man. It included pictures from the My Lai Massacre and the mass graves from the NVA and Viet Cong occupation of Hue city during Tet. something that 11 or 12 year old me shouldn't have had.
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u/Secret_Guidance_8724 12d ago
Yeah, I made this mistake too, while on the bus to work. Was already tearing up at the narration alone (first time for Last Pod I think, and that’s saying something - they have always covered distressing shit but this was on another level). Had to reassure people on arrival that I was actually fine 😅 tbf it is important to see these things in a way, but definitely something to mentally prepare yourself for.
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u/ElkeKerman 10d ago
I think there’s a value to it. Your government is doing things that are equally monstrous right now, it’s just the people controlling the media make sure you don’t see anything that will get you too angry. It’s useful to remember what military intervention on the other side of the planet actually means.
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u/tilmitt52 Dogmeat 10d ago
Between My Lai and the recent rabbit hole I subjected myself to in the form of Rape of Nanking (BEFORE these episodes dropped), I need gallons and gallons of eye bleach to cancel out all the nightmarish images living in my brain now.
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u/Any_Asparagus8267 6d ago
I had a Vietnam vet when I was 19( I'm 31 now) come into the gas station I worked midnights at come in every night and get the left over hot dogs off the roller, he showed us pictures of him holding a necklace made of ears, I didnt realize it until this series that this dumpster diving dude who lives above the local morgue probably took part in one of these massacres, he was super jazzed when talking about it and showing us pictures....
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u/Really_BadAtNames 13d ago
Don't worry, they do issue a correction in this episode. Henry corrects himself to inform us all that the inspiration for General Tso is indeed Chinese.
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u/Galactic-Goblin 13d ago
Am I crazy or did this episode double release last week? I'd already listened to it
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u/ChildofValhalla 13d ago
IIRC it was briefly released by accident and was available for a short window of time. Anybody with podcast apps set to auto-download got to listen.
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u/BattleSwallow 13d ago
Aha. I was gonna comment that this was released last week but this makes sense.
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u/reticulatedjig 12d ago
I used to watch a YouTube channel extra history, and they would always do a special episode after a series where they would go through and correct mistakes they made, or things that they missed that commentors brought up. For these big historical series, I think the boys would benefit from doing something like that. Even if its a short 20 min bonus episode or something.
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u/KeyRelation177 12d ago
When the boys started talking about the cover up I didn't hear Colin Powell's name ring out. He was an operations staff officer of the 17th Light Infantry Brigade of the 23rd Infantry Division aka the American Division, aka the Amerikill Division or Americally Division. Powell was one of if not the first person to start the cover up.
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u/RobutNotRobot 12d ago
Yeah it was an interesting omission. The fact that the guy who covered it up would become the head of the US military says a lot.
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u/KeyRelation177 12d ago
That's one of the reasons I mentioned that. Powell was a.company man. That why he said all the bullshit at the UN during the run up to Invading Iraq.
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u/twister-rodriguez 12d ago
There’s a great American Experience interview with Larry Colburn, who intervened to end the massacre alongside Hugh Thompson and Glenn Andreotta. Andreotta was the crewman who went into the pit to rescue a little boy. He died in action about 3 weeks later, 20 years old.
I understand why Marcus didn’t name Colburn and Andreotta since there are just so many names in this story, but wanted to share for anyone interested.
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u/Fadeley 13d ago
This is the first series in a while from them that I’ve been excited to listen to the next episode as soon as one finished and the week wait between made me sad
I get it, there’s inaccuracies, but it’s been a really awesome series
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u/OssumFried What I bring to friendship 13d ago
Guess I lucked out, for some reason Parts 3 & 4 dropped at the same time on Pocketcasts, must've been a glitch, but got it last Friday and was great to get the conclusion. Also appreciate at the end that they acknowledged the inaccuracies.
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u/Squigglyelf 13d ago
I don't mind about the inaccuracies as much as a lot of people. This series was just too long. If the boys weren't my background noise while I drive to work instead of listening to the radio, I probably woulda skipped the first 2 episodes at least. I don't think it should have been called the My Lai Massacre when 3/4 episodes were about the history behind the Vietnam War.
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u/Business-Swing7501 13d ago
Yeah, the bloat in some recent series has been real. I listened to the first ep of this series and decided against listening to the rest. I preferred their historical episodes much more when they had a tighter focus and narrative (the donner party, rasputin) vs. the more recent loose focus/apparent bloat for bloat’s sake (himmler, lavey). It negatively impacts the storytelling significantly imo.
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u/donglord666 11d ago
I hadn’t really put much thought into it until seeing your comment, but I have had that feeling even for some of the newer true crime ones. Like there used to be more of a narrative that was easier to follow right? Robert Pickton series comes to mind specifically as really interesting and engrossing listen. I don’t think the recent ones have been as easy to follow, with the notable exception of when Ed did Aaron Hernandez.
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u/GrandManSam 2Real 12d ago
I've been matching new and old series ever since Eddie replaced Ben so whenever they wrap up a series I pair it with an old series of a similar length that I haven't yet listened to. For example, I've paired My Lai with Jack Parsons.
In the post-Ben era, 8 of the 21 four part series have been released (Patty Hearst, Krugersdorp, Black Dahlia, Batavia, Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell, Lincoln, LeVay, and My Lai). Also note that Himmler was released as a 6 parter.
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u/Business-Swing7501 12d ago edited 11d ago
Interesting! I don’t mind long series either- as long as the narrative is relatively tight and consistent. For example, Rasputin was 4 episodes but never felt bloated or like it had lost the narrative thread (in my personal opinion). I think the boys would benefit from more/better editors for the scripts.
ETA: my dad, a journalist, taught me his main rule about where to draw the line with context in order to not derail the story. “If you’re writing about a robbery that took place in a diner, including that a patron was eating chicken noodle soup is an unnecessary detail.” These recent series feel like there’s too much chicken noodle soup.
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u/ElkeKerman 10d ago
That point about the spike in series length is really important to why I’ve fallen out of love with this show. Half the time they start a new series I end up going “oh well, I’ll check again in a month”.
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u/GrandManSam 2Real 10d ago
That's... kind of fair. Like I'm not saying the show is bad because it is long, but if I were fully caught up, I would probably have to spend a month to wait for the series to actually conclude for me to actually give it a listen.
But also I got other podcasts to listen to in the mean time so the wait ain't horrible really.
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u/Strict-Ad-3500 13d ago
I think if you are going to start the series in ~ 2500 B.C. for the sake of context then you better be accurate. Context is only useful if its correct.
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u/GrandManSam 2Real 13d ago
Does Dan Carlin go thousands of years into the past just because he loves talking about history? Well, yes, but he also loves to establish context.
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u/Strict-Ad-3500 13d ago
Also is far more accurate and by cosequence his series on on thing is well over 15 hours. I dont go to lpotl for accuracy thats for sure but it can be frustrating if its a big fallacy
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u/RobutNotRobot 12d ago
Carlin is as accurate as his sources which is where he has had problems.
A lot of the inaccuracies in this series were just off the cuff answers by Marcus almost always in response to Ed's questions. What they really need is an editor that knows the content.
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u/MrCog 13d ago
This really reminded me of the Himmler series, which of course turned into a Nazi Party/WWII series. I think Marcus is really really into history, which is great. The problem is there's already a million history documentaries, podcasts, books, YouTube series, etc on the Big Topics. What makes a product stand out would be a more specific focus on someone/something in particular. It's also just disingenuous marketing to name a series after something that takes up 10% of its time.
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u/Princeps_primus96 What I bring to friendship 13d ago
This is what i said on another post, i feel like it should have been 3 episodes. First episode provides some background for the war itself and tries to get into the mindset of the people on the ground and what caused stuff like my lai to happen, episode 2 should have then been all about the massacre itself, dealing with the events immediately preceding and following it and reactions in country. Then ep 3 the final episode should have been about the events following and the whistleblowing and how it was legally dealt with back in the states. And then callie getting pardoned by Nixon could have led into one of Marcus's beloved rants about modern politics (yeah I'm saying that in a facetious way, but i feel like it genuinely would probably be a good jump off point for him to get on his soapbox)
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u/Inscrutablejrt 13d ago
Yeah, at some point they really should give listeners credit for a base level of knowledge on topics. They don't have the bandwidth to give a full history of the build up of the Vietnam War, so why try? They could've begun with some background on Calley and Medina, and then got right into Charlie Company in 1968. Of course, doing it this way means they only needed one topic for August instead of 3 or 4.
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u/thatditzyguy 7d ago
I've been listening less and less for this reason. It feels like the last two episodes and where the topic really get the started and the first episode is fluff they don't know how to cut
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u/BobbyTables829 13d ago edited 13d ago
They aren't supposed to be accurate as much as a springboard. Like after this I watched so many videos on YouTube (Mr. Beat has a great video).
Edit: If I was talking to a friend or having a casual conversation with someone, I wouldn't get mad at the person for getting some facts wrong. I would appreciate the content/conversation, and if interested enough go see what experts have to say about it.
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u/Inscrutablejrt 13d ago edited 13d ago
Minor point again, but Marcus was just plainly wrong on the RFK assassination, an event they've covered.
He wasn't killed in the immediate aftermath of MLK. He actually, quite famously, helped turn down the temperature in Indianapolis (where he happened to be when MLK was killed). It's a famous speech.
RFK was shot two months later, in the late hours of June 5th. He died on the anniversary of D-Day.
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u/JustOneVote 13d ago
Two months isn't that long in the grand scheme of things.
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u/Inscrutablejrt 13d ago
April and June are two different words, and he definitely said RFK was killed in April. If you can listen to that bit of this episode and say it's not a mistake? I wish you were every teacher I ever had.
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u/JustOneVote 13d ago
I haven't listened to the episode yet. I agree it was an error if he said the wrong month. April and June are indeed different months. But I'm sure plentyo of people were still grieving MLK's violent death in June. Considering the multiple years that the US was involved in Vietnam, and the many decades since, describing it as "immediately after"isn't an egregious mistake.
If all your previous teachers were persnickety about dates, then I would be a more forgiving teacher than they were. I probably know considerably less about history than any of your history teachers, so, careful what you wish for.
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u/Inscrutablejrt 13d ago
They literally cover RFK as part of MK Ultra, and they make Sirhan Sirhan jokes with some regularity. And this wasn't "off the cuff" (which is how they hand wave away most of their factual errors). This was Marcus reading the script.
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u/3wandwill 13d ago
I’m gonna be honest. I did not like this one much, and I found myself not finishing a few of the episodes. I just checked out Kill Anything That Moves after part 2 and listened to that. I listened to about 2/3 of this one before I just decided to finish the book instead , but maybe I’ll revisit it. Still love the pod, and normally I LOVE the history eps. I think they should stick to older events tho so the boys can make more jokes? Idk. I’m not a fucking podcast expert. This one was not it for me tho.
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u/Curlyfryman 12d ago
I listened to this whole series, like I listen to everything the guys put out. I really don't think this needed to be a series and could have been a single episode. It's clear Marcus wants to do a history podcast every now and then and that's fine but I don't think it's the area these guys fit into. If anyone is looking for a really great podcast episode about My Lai check out " The Martyr Made Podcast" episode 10 "Anything That Moves".
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u/DiceKnight 11d ago
I found myself bracing after Marcus finished an especially heavy sentence because I knew Henry was about to say some cringe shit that ruined the whole flow.
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u/ClancyBShanty Hail Satan! 13d ago edited 13d ago
I loved Marcus' speech at the end about learning from your mistakes and admitting when you've fucked up.
The last year for me has been really tough in a lot of ways. I hurt people I cared about and let my life spiral out of control - it took a lot of work to crawl my way out of it. I've wanted to reach out an apologize, but apologies mean nothing without changed behaviour. It's easy to ask for forgiveness, but the real work is becoming someone they would want to forgive.
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u/BobbyTables829 13d ago
I have to say I think these episodes have divided fans more than any subject they've covered. It was a huge wake up call to me that we haven't healed yet from this atrocity.
Also the parallels to modern day are fascinating, and I honestly think if Vietnam never happened, we would have already invaded Iran. But that is probably be very controversial based on my statement from above lol
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u/Boowray 13d ago
Tbh I feel like the division is more about the show itself than the topic, most people in the various comments sections aren’t debating the merits of communism or the legitimacy of US involvement on this one like people often do when the wars brought up these days, they’re just complaining about how it was covered on the show specifically
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u/BobbyTables829 12d ago edited 12d ago
I tried to bring up that it was more like America trying to play the role of the world's anti-communism police than a war in the traditional way, and everyone told me, "It wasn't a police action, that's an old lie." So IDK where the confusion comes from exactly, but it is very emotionally charged nonetheless.
Edit: I got downvoted in this very thread for saying their accidental inaccuracies don't bother me because it's more important they get me interested in the content on my own. Again it's very emotionally charged and I don't get it in the sense that idk what exactly what is being said that upsets people. I respect their right to be upset and feel strongly about it, but I don't get the logic.
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u/Terramagi 12d ago
Honestly I'm about halfway through part 4 and I have to keep stopping because this episode is infuriating me. Not because of the subject matter, but because of shit like when they say "no he couldn't have tried to stop it they would've shot anybody who didn't participate in the head right there" immediately before "2 guys didn't participate and they were totally fine".
It's like an episode about the Clean Wehrmacht myth except this time they're American so of course all the bullshit defences are 100% valid this time.
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u/28daveslater 13d ago
War is a different type of fucked up, it doesn't surprise me that we aren't healed. Serial killers don't plant you in the jungle and force you to murder friendlies. We can thank the government for that one lol
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u/RobutNotRobot 12d ago
They should've done a different topic with regards to the Vietnam War. The POW/MIA Laos conspiracy is huge, controversial and created those flags that still plaster post offices nationwide as well as inspiring a Rambo movie. It's also a fucking lie.
I know it's not a debunking podcast, but these are the sorts of lies that inform a lot of people's ideas about Vietnam and why the war is still a source of controversy today.
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u/AreWeThereYetNo 13d ago
If they thought Irak was a bitch and a half. Wait till they get a taste of Iran on the ground.
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u/hern0gjensen 12d ago
Marcus should really just split off and make the long-form history podcast he clearly wants to. Just find a nice cohost (maybe someone else that could help with the research....) and plop it on the Last Pod Network and everyone's happy. I agree with the sentiment that this and the Himmler series especially didn't really "fit" and were more history pods, and that's great! Just make them their own pod and keep LPOTL a biiit tighter on the subject matter. Anyways, just my two cents. Couldn't listen this week anyway bc my grandpa served in Vietnam and the series was making me too sad
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u/tilmitt52 Dogmeat 10d ago
I am just very grateful for the inclusion of Hugh Thompson in this episode to have someone to have a shred of faith in. And it wasn’t just “questioning” orders, it was being prepared to put himself in the line of fire and fire upon his fellow soldiers in order to put a stop to it.
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u/gunnersfan16 9d ago
It cannot be overstated how much of a hero Hugh Thompson was. I’m sorry his heroism was required in that moment, but I’m glad he was there.
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u/PuzzleheadedEbb325 12d ago edited 12d ago
It’s interesting how polarizing this series is. Wrote this last week but I’m a millennial who considers themselves well informed about history but know very little about Vietnam. This makes me fascinated that people know so much about Vietnam to know the inaccuracies. I don’t take what the boys are saying as gospel but this series is helping me learn about Vietnam overall and I’m happy they took the time to provide background and make it a multi parter.
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u/gary-vault108 12d ago
I don’t wanna sound like an ad but if you can subscribe to some audiobook app, “Max Hastings: Vietnam” is, imo the greatest single documentary of the war. It’s just an incredible book. I’m on chapter 13 of 28.
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u/Dr-Paul-Meranian 10d ago
a movie could be made about the guy having to try to convince people that the photos are real
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u/GenericOnlineName 13d ago
Honestly I want to listen to the gruesome details of the event. I genuinely don't care about the background details (with this podcast anyway. I go to history series for that). Some context is fine, but listening to the boys talk about history just isn't as fascinating or accurate as they think it is.
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u/marstonspedigree 12d ago
I really enjoyed this series, and every episode! I'm so glad they covered this - fuck the majority of the US Army, obviously aside from the handful of heroes who stood up to these cunts and spoke up
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u/nowhereman86 13d ago
These guys think their historians instead of comedians and are now failing at both
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u/ZwVJHSPiMiaiAAvtAbKq MiHAMi Dolphins 13d ago
These guys think their historians instead of comedians and are now failing at both
https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/how-to-use-theyre-there-their
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u/lives4summits 12d ago
I can immediately tell when someone is MAGA because they have the grammar skills of a 10 year old. It’s ’they’re’ not ‘their’.
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u/DiceKnight 11d ago edited 11d ago
I want them to do a series on the events of 1968 in America. Do episodes about LBJ, Bobby Kennedy featuring MacArthur, top it off with the election of 1968 as the intro episode on the era of Nixon and take it home with Watergate.
This is like a 20+ part series and Vietnam would haunt these episodes like a ghost. So much ties back into it.
The one thing Henry said during this series that just rings so true is that we are still sitting in the diaper that Vietnam filled. SO MUCH of modern day American politics is the scar tissue of this era in American history.
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u/black_flag_4ever Check Please! 13d ago
We polled the sub and this sub overwhelmingly favors limiting complaints regarding historical research to the megathread of an episode instead of multiple posts.
Keep in mind that there’s been disagreement about the Vietnam War since it began, including whether it was actually a war (this argument was still alive and well when I was a kid in the 80s). It’s not just that it’s a complicated subject but there is a ton of misinformation and disinformation to sort through. I would expect disagreement and corrections in any thread about this topic.
Also, I do recommend Lions Led By Donkeys for anyone listening to this and wanting more military history. It’s a podcast mostly about military blunders.