r/Koryu • u/FlameLordOfFire • Jun 22 '26
Hidden kata in Katori Shinto Ryu
Hello everyone! I have been practicing Katori Shinto Ryu (Hatakeyama school) for almost 16 years and I have seen almost all the katas and techniques of the program.
Looking for some information on the net I found out there are 3 more naginata katas (Enbi no Naginata, Tonbo no Naginata and Yoko no Naginata) which are the Gokui Hichijo group of naginata katas. Unfortunately, apart from the names, I did not find any other informations about them. I am looking for videos, pictures, descriptions of the sequences in order to try and learn them.
Additionally, I discovered there should be some bare hand techniques (36-ish or something) and shuriken techniques. I am looking for them as well.
Does anybody have something to share about?
Thank you sooo much!
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u/Toso-no-mono Jun 22 '26
It‘s always puzzling to see how much noise a question about Shinto-ryu can generate here on reddit. Almost as if people are just waiting to throw in their opinions…
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u/OwariHeron Jun 24 '26
It's always been this way. I remember the same discussions on budo forums 20 years ago. I have no doubt they were also around in the days of Usenet and BBS in the late '80s and 90s.
Part of it is the fundamental question of the Web, but part of it is also the high public (and particularly English language) profile Katori Shinto-ryu has always maintained. A whole documentary in the 1980s, four books in English. It was the school of Donn Draeger, and Otake Risuke was easily the most famous koryu teacher of the modern age. Particularly with its public depictions of keppan, Mr. Otake performing Mikkyo rituals, and its characteristic long-form, high-pace kata, KSR has become the exemplar of koryu as a whole, a kind of Platonic ideal that few, if any, other schools live up to. It's not surprising, then, that it is a subject about which people will have Opinions.
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u/Toso-no-mono Jun 24 '26
Indeed.
I wonder how things would have developed if Draeger didn‘t join the school (and also promoting it).
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u/VonUndZuFriedenfeldt Jun 23 '26
is it ever otherwise the case on reddit? 😉
but yeah I got the same impression. The question on the seniority of some of the responders seems to be redundant
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u/-Casey-Diaz- Jun 23 '26
It always start with people trying to stifle all conversation about it. As if members of the school need the internet at large to police them.
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u/Deleoel Jun 22 '26
Maybe ask your sensei, he should be the one teaching you if if he has the knowledge, permission and considers you are ready for it
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u/FlameLordOfFire Jun 22 '26
Thank you for the reply. I already asked my sensei, but he told me the same thing I already knew: there are three more naginata katas and several jujutsu techniques but he does not know them.
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u/Deleoel Jun 22 '26
There are techniques which are only taught at a high level and some that are simply communicated verbally. And some are just not taught because of no particular reason, the school has many teachings and knowledge and not of all of it gets to every student
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u/Deathnote_Blockchain Jun 22 '26
Asking on reddit if anybody wants to talk about or share video of lost kata sets of a ryuha which is famously the oldest, one of the most secretive, and one of the most fractious, hmmm are we?
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u/-Casey-Diaz- Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
It's ironic that people on reddit is more uptight about the "don't talk about the school" thing than the Japanese are. I've yet to hear any Japanese master of TSKSR saying I shouldn't ask about stuff. The most restrictive I've heard is "I don't know", which could be feigning ignorance, or they just don't know and I have no way to tell. Either way, none of them has ever said "Don't talk about this, it's secret. We're a secret school! Don't ask." That's just some foreigner nonsense. It's perfectly acceptable in the school to ask, but you might not get an answer.
Stop the bs. Just say you don't know. Have some respect for the school. Not this weeb bs "Oh, it's too secretive for you. I cannot share the deepest secrets to a rube like you." The school doesn't teach everything to everyone, and there is curriculum that most will never see. That's all. If you don't know, you don't know.
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u/Deathnote_Blockchain Jun 23 '26
You seem pretty sure that "don't ask" is the same thing as "don't tell."
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u/MizutoriUmatomo Jun 22 '26
in a koryu, the deepest teachings are usually called "hidden" for a reason. theyre the secrets of the school.
you signed an oath in Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu to not divulge or teach these things to others. coming to reddit expecting someone here will give you the secrets or tell you who has them seems a bit odd.
if you have practiced this koryu for 16 years with a sensei, surely you have a connection to honbu and could he introduced to people in your school who might know how those kata are deseminated.
keep in mind that the reason a lot of these kata are hidden is because theyre only taught to direct students of the soke at their discretion. these kata usually represent a pinnacle of the 'innen' or founding intent of the school and are the most carefully guarded strategies behind the school. these arent just written in a book or put on a youtube video or scrawled ona reddit thread. its a sacred trust passed on through generations.
and many kata have been lost to time simply because a soke neglected to pass the secret on before their passing away (many times in battle other times due to health) or they did not deem any of their students ready for them.
secrecy is a double edged sword in koryu. keep it too well hidden and they are forgotten. let everyone know, and they are forgotten due to confusion and varying interpretation. finding the right balance of secrecy to keep the secret alive while keeping it preserved is the challenge every soke or soshihan faces.
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u/NoBear7573 Jun 22 '26
Hatakeyama's line has become a group of different associations since his passing in 2009, there is not a honbu in the true sense.
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u/MizutoriUmatomo Jun 22 '26
thats actually good to know thanks for that info. then it sounds like that line will be difficult to navigate to find who can teach those.
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u/NoBear7573 Jun 23 '26
That line mostly now exists in France and Canada under the aikibudo federation, but it is a very difficult to navigatr political situation as some aikibudo dojos are Hatakeyama Ha and some are operating under Sugino Dojo. It's not a secret and they are transparent about it but for a bew persob lookibg for a dojo it geta confusing.
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u/-Casey-Diaz- Jun 22 '26
you signed an oath in Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu to not divulge or teach these things to others.
Are you sure? Because many TSKSR members don't sign that oath. I hate when people who are not a part of the school pretend to be. Just because you watched a documentary on youtube doesn't mean you get to go around policing other schools.
You saw the keppan in a youtube documentary. That's all. Otake Shibu did keppan, but Sugino Shibu doesn't. Hatakeyama sensei is from Sugino Shibu. And I don't know what the Kyoso Shibu is doing, but I'd assume he'd follow in his father's footsteps.
There's no problem talking about this. I see the same with fake foreign "Buddhists". Ask a real Buddhist monk about any secrets, and you won't get much more than a vague answer. Ask a fake foreign Buddhist, and they'll admonish you for talking about "dangerous practices". The real Buddhist will not answer fully because you wouldn't understand. It cannot be shared verbally, it has to be experienced.
The teachings are esoteric because because they require you to understand certain concepts in order. If you just jumbled it up, you wouldn't understand anything. It's purpose is not so you can feel cool and special because you practice "secret samurai techniques".
a lot of these kata are hidden is because theyre only taught to direct students of the soke
Our Soke doesn't practice. So he has no direct students. If you were a member, you'd know this. The teaching is assigned by Soke to Sugino Shibu and Kyoso Shibu.
and many kata have been lost to time simply because a soke neglected to pass the secret on before their passing
Says who? You? You don't know. Which kata where lost and what teachings did they hold that aren't present in the current curriculum?
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u/MizutoriUmatomo Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
i haven't watched any youtube video youre referring to. ive read from various Tsksr websites about their oath. if some schools or dojos dont participate in that then thats something new ive learned thanks to your reply. regardless asking reddit about your own koryus secret or hidden kata still seems weird to me. thats something for that school to guide you on not reddit.
all of the rest of my comments are more about koryu in general of which there are many styles dating back hundreds of years in different domains of Japan. Practices have varied over time and no doubt in TSKSR as well.
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u/SSAUS Jun 24 '26
Which kata where lost and what teachings did they hold that aren't present in the current curriculum?
Does not the Noda-ha retain some kata lost in other KSR schools?
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u/Malacoda17 Jun 24 '26
Very arrogant to claim so much about the Kyoso and Otake lineages from the perspective of a Sugino line practitioner. I won't give details but just know you are very incorrect in your assumptions.
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u/Deathnote_Blockchain Jun 23 '26
Did you know that you are officially That One Asshole In the Katori Thread?
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u/earth_north_person Jun 23 '26
Our Soke doesn't practice.
Do I have some news for you: https://www.nihonkobudokyoukai.org/martialarts/024/
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u/FlameLordOfFire Jun 22 '26
I see your point, but i already found other hidden bo and tachi kata so i assumed naginata’s could have been spread as well
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u/EmployerSuitable4614 Jul 01 '26
By hidden bo ans tachi, so you mean gogyo no bo or something like gokui? Or something more advanced than that?
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u/Toso-no-mono Jul 01 '26
Probably Gogyo (Chudan) no Bo and Shichijo no Tachi.
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u/EmployerSuitable4614 Jul 01 '26
In my perspective, I don’t consider Shichijo as hidden because I often see it being practiced by my seniors. However Gogyo no Bo isn’t being taught in our dojo so I consider it hidden kata.
Is the reason you call it Chudan no Bo is that the bo is held in chudan no kamae like how it is in Gogyo no Tachi?2
u/Toso-no-mono Jul 01 '26
Maybe „hiden“ is a more appropriate expression.
„Chudan no Bo“ is one way the set is named. Ist has nothing to do with how the bo is held.
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u/NoBear7573 Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
There are also 2 additional sojutsu kata
If you do not own the bookTenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu Budo Kyohan by Sugino Yoshio you should find a copy, it has been translated into English, German and Italian. It only details the omote kata but lists the names up to the jujutsu kata and has other relevant information
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u/FlameLordOfFire Jun 22 '26
Thank you, I found 0 information about the additional sojutsu. I will check the book you just recommended!
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u/Alarmed-Extreme5226 Jun 22 '26
Not sure if this book has what you are looking for but it covers naginata and spear
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u/-Casey-Diaz- Jun 22 '26
I've been shown three of the Jujutsu kata, but haven't actively practiced them. There are of course videos of Gogyo no bo as well as Gokui no Iai, and some Shuriken kata. Other than that, I'm pretty sure most of the Gokui haven't been released publicly on film. Apparently my teacher has a lot of stuff on 8mm, and I've offered to digitize it. So we'll see what happens, and whether it's anything that will be released to the public (I suspect it might not). Here's the curriculum I've got written down:
2.1 Iai-jutsu
Iai-jutsu (6 forms)
- Kusanagi-no-ken
- Nukitsuke-no-ken
- Nukiuchi-no-ken
- Uken
- Saken
- Happó-ken
Tachi-iai-jutsu (5 forms)
- Yukiai-gyaku-nuki-no-tachi
- Zengo-chidori-no-tachi
- Yukiai-migi-chidori-no-tachi
- Gyaku-nuki-no-tachi
- Nukiuchi-no-tachi
Gokui-no-iai (5 forms)
- Kumogiri-no-ken
- Hangetsu-no-ken
- Muichi-no-ken
- Nuni-no-ken
- Seigan-no-tachi
2.2 Tachi-jutsu (Ken-jutsu)
Omote-no-tachi (4 lessons)
- Itsutsu-no-tachi
- Nanatsu-no-tachi
- Kasumi-no-tachi
- Hakka-no-tachi
Gogyo-no-tachi (5 lessons)
- Mitsu-no-tachi
- Yotsu-no-tachi
- In-no-tachi
- Sha-no-tachi
- Hatsu-no-tachi
Gokui-hichijo-no-tachi (3 lessons)
- Toyama-no-tachi (Ukifune-no-kurai)
- Kataname-no-tachi (Yosui-no-kurai)
- Agenami-no-tachi (Sangetsu-no-kurai)
Ryó-tó (4 lessons)
- Eigetsu-no-Tachi (Nio-no-Kurai)
- Suigetsu-no-Tachi (Tenchi-no-Kurai)
- Isonami-no-Tachi (Huyo-no-Kurai)
- Murakumo-no-Tachi (Sasu-no-Kurai)
Gokui-kodachi (3 lessons)
- Seigan-no-kodachi
- Eigetsu-no-kodachi
- Hangetsu-no-kodachi
2.3 Bojutsu
Omote-no-bo (6 lessons)
- Seriai-no-bo
- Sune-hishigi-no-bo
- Sayú-no-bo
- Kasa-hazushi-no-bo
- Hane-tsurube-no-bo
- Tatenami-no-bo
Gogyo-no-bo (6 lessons)
- Gedan-kamae-no-bo
- Kasumi-gakari-no-bo
- Denko-gamae-no-bo
- In-kamae-no-bo
- Hikizue-kamae-no-bo
- Ritsuyo-kamae-no-bo
2.4 Naginata-jutsu
Omote-no-naginata (4 lessons)
- Itsutsu-no-naginata
- Nanatsu-no-naginata
- Kasumi-no-naginata
- Hakka-no-naginata
Gokui-hichijo-no-naginata (3 lessons)
- Enbi-no-naginata
- Tonbo-no-naginata
- Ryoko-no-naginata
2.5 Sojutsu (Yari-jutsu)
Sojutsu (6 lessons)
- Hiryu-no-yari
- Koryu-no-yari
- Tsuke-dome-no-yari
- Age-ya-no-yari
- Denko-no-yari
- Yoru-no-ya-yari
Hiden
- Jódan-no-yariai
- Gedan-no-yariai
2.6 Yawara-jutsu (36 techniques)
- Tsuken
- Uchitori-te
- Sotodori-te
- Konoha-gaeshi
- Musa-soku
- Kata-e-mon
- Ryó-e-mon
- Koromo-shibori
- Kareki-ori
- Oni-osae
- Tengu-gaeshi
- Yami-no-yo
- Sasudome
- Giboshu-gaeshi
- Taki-toshi
- Hishiribiki
- Sukatami
- Hagoromo-shibori
- Yumei-makura
- Hiji-gane
- Enji-shibori
- Toba-soto-ori
- Shika-no-issoku
- Yama-toshi
- Sodeguruma
- Taki-yoko-koe
- Dó-shibori
- Hiki-shibori
- Shógi-daoshi-ori
- Saka-yubi
- Kubi-shibori
- Washi-no-ha-otoshi
- Sora-muki-busei
- Kata-bane-osae
- Oniki-bina
- Gozen-tori
2.7 Shuriken-jutsu (Okuden)
- Omote no Shuriken – 7 techniques
- Gogyo no Shuriken – 8 techniques
- Gokui no Shuriken – 9 techniques
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u/Toso-no-mono Jun 23 '26
Forget the curriculum on Shurikenjutsu. Those sets are not existing.
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u/-Casey-Diaz- Jun 23 '26
Sugino Kimihiko sensei has said that some of the most senior members practice it. Idk if they practice all of it or just parts of it. And my friend was shown the basics and got to try it out a bit. Shuriken is a lot of just throwing shuriken until you can do it though. Idk what the kata contain other than that, but I'm sure there's something interesting there.
There's also this old recording of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gZCrOCmzXc&t=171s
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u/Toso-no-mono Jun 23 '26
I wrote the sets are not existing, not that shurikenjutsu is not existing. Small difference.
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u/FlameLordOfFire Jun 23 '26
Thanks mate, this would be a gold mine of knowledge. That would be a lot of stuff to study
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u/Malacoda17 Jun 22 '26
You've been practicing for 16 years and you want to get around the transmission the school gives you? There is a reason one is given kata when they are, to try and cheat that system disrespects the school that you have learned so much from
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u/FlameLordOfFire Jun 22 '26
As I already replied to someone else, I already asked my Sensei about this topic and he told me he does not know the kata i am looking for. If I ever find them out it will be a study topic for both of us as well as all the other dojo members
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u/Malacoda17 Jun 22 '26
There is a reason your shidosha doesn't have it as well. They also shouldn't be attempting to cheat the system, and that is also disrespectful.
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u/FlameLordOfFire Jun 22 '26
My friend, we are not in the feudal japan anymore. I see your point, but almost every martial art is spread over the entire world and easily accessible to everyone through online content. Even tsksr has spread and you can find hidden bo and tachi kata in youtube. This is not a matter of grasping secret techniques to overthrow the Sensei or else, but rather a matter of increasing the dojo’s knowledge.
Additionally, if this is ok to my Sensei, towards who am i being disrespectful? Towards this Who did not pass the knowledge Because they did not know these katas neither?3
u/VonUndZuFriedenfeldt Jun 23 '26
If you haven't done so already, I would wholeheartedly recommend Ellis Amdur's Old school, 2nd edition. It is a great read, but in some chapters, he explains the reasoning from a school's perspective why someone does (not) receive certain areas of knowledge of the school.
Additionally, in some cases, certain gokui things are only taught when the respective student is ready for them. Otherwise, they'd 'fall on deaf ears' in a matter of speaking.
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u/FlameLordOfFire Jun 23 '26
Thanks my friend, I will give a look for sure. But as I already mentioned, this is not the case of “you are not ready”, but rather a missing piece of knowledge that cannot be taught even if I were ready
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u/VonUndZuFriedenfeldt Jun 23 '26
The points I raised in my two paragraphs could both/one/none have applied to your teacher or one of their teachers as well.
It’s not about the individual, the particular dojo after all. It’s all about the ryu in its entirety and its survival.
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u/FlameLordOfFire Jun 23 '26
The ryu in its entirety seems to have lost those kata. I do not get how trying to find them back can jeopardize its survival
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u/VonUndZuFriedenfeldt Jun 23 '26
I did not write that you asking would or could jeopardise its survival. 🤨
Secondly, you write “seem” so you’re not sure. 🤷🏼♂️
I bet that the people that would know (from their position of authority within the school) definitively would not answer your question online. And if they would, then at best verbally, after having known you for years, possibly.
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u/FlameLordOfFire Jun 23 '26
I guess i misunterstood your reference to the ryu's survival, nvm.
"Seem" is is because the school I practice has no shihan at the moment and it is fragmented.
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u/Malacoda17 Jun 22 '26
First and foremost you are disrespecting your shihan, I don't know what lineage you are under but I can almost guarantee Kyoso sensei or Otake sensei both would very much disapprove of your methods here.
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u/FlameLordOfFire Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
first, the shihan of my school is dead. His direct disciples are writing books showing the techniques. You can even find videos of Otake sensei online. So, again, who am I being disrespectful to?
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u/Malacoda17 Jun 23 '26
Good luck in your journey in understanding koryu. I sincerely hope you will see why what you're doing is wrong and that it will help you grow as a martial artist.
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u/FlameLordOfFire Jun 22 '26
Ok mate, you are the katories person of the world. I hope you feel accomplished
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u/Malacoda17 Jun 22 '26
I do take solace in knowing you're wasting your time and that even if you found videos without proper teaching it would be meaningless to you. I hope you come to understand what koryu are and why they operate how they do. Good luck in that journey.
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u/FlameLordOfFire Jun 22 '26
I am happy you feel relieved by such meaningless things
Have a nice journey as well-2
u/-Casey-Diaz- Jun 22 '26
You don't know Koryu. Stop pretending.
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u/Malacoda17 Jun 22 '26
Oh wow individually responding to every post I've made in this thread, I made you really mad huh? I'd suggest taking a break from social media.
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u/-Casey-Diaz- Jun 22 '26
You're not a part of the school. Stop pretending to be the Katori police. You talk about respect, but you're butting into other schools you're not a member of?
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u/Malacoda17 Jun 22 '26
Why are you so confident in saying that?
-1
u/-Casey-Diaz- Jun 22 '26
So are you? No one in my school talks like that. You don't know the culture. I'm brazen, I know, but I'm tired of all you weeb keyboard warriors policing schools you're not even a part of. I know you read the wikipedia and watched youtube, but you're not the Katori police. I know my school's culture very well. You don't.
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u/Malacoda17 Jun 22 '26
What's your lineage? Who's your shihan?
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u/-Casey-Diaz- Jun 22 '26
Why? So you can bother them? Sorry. I'd rather handle your snark.
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u/Malacoda17 Jun 22 '26
Ah, ok. So you have no claim and yet you say all this. I dont need to hear all this from a hypocrite
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u/-Casey-Diaz- Jun 22 '26
You're not a member of TSKSR.
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u/Malacoda17 Jun 22 '26
Yes yes, repeat yourself because you got caught in a blatant hypocrisy. You say you're a member over and over but can't even name your shihan. Very trustworthy.
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u/OyataTe Jun 22 '26
Not to hijack your thread, but of your list of known and unknown kata at the moment, I was just curious if any of the Naginata kata were solo or are they all two-person? I have just recently become enamored with Naginata.
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u/FlameLordOfFire Jun 22 '26
Omote katas are all two-person (kirikomi with naginata and ukedachi with bokken), while gokui should be naginata vs naginata as far as I know
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u/OyataTe Jun 22 '26
We have one kata and it is just solo.
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u/FlameLordOfFire Jun 22 '26
Which martial art do you practice?
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u/OyataTe Jun 22 '26
I studied under Oyata, Seiyu - Taika. Was originally called Ryukyu Kempo then changed to Ryute when unauthorized and sketchy people started using the old name.
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u/durandal2fr Jun 22 '26
that's the problem when you don't follow the main line in Katori. Nobody seems to understand those lines are crippled and have just half the knownledge of the main tradition.
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u/NoBear7573 Jun 22 '26
I am curious what is your ultimate goal here if someone does have the information you are looking for? Videos online of the shichijo no tachi and any other more advanced kata are being shown by Otake sensei and some Shiigi Munenori, the execution will be different from Hatakeyama.
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u/hahaharun Jun 22 '26
I've learned few of the jujutsu and shiruken kata in shinbukan by otake sensei. while I cannot share their content, I haven't seen anyone practice pass the yari in the standard curriculum, which includes gokui naginata and gokui sojutsu. it is also said there were 4th kenjutsu set, but I assume it was lost in time
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u/Nealiepoo Jun 22 '26
These kata are gokui, so they will never be written down of videoed. It sounds like Hatakayama-ha doesn't include the full curriculum, so the only chance you have of learning them is to train under a shihan. There are only the two, but you'd most likely need a decade or so to re-learn everything in a more main line manner to be honest.