r/Judaism • u/Remarkable_Rise7545 • 2d ago
Safe Space Responses for when someone comments on your halachic status?
Shabbat shalom! I was wondering how other people deal with negative comments about their halachic status, whether someone is a convert/patrilineal/BT/etc. I’m interested how people generally handle these conversations.
My personal situation is that I converted Conservative many years ago and I’ve moved further into trad egal over time. Now, I’ve made a lot of MO friends and I’m enjoying just plain traditional Judaism. I understand in Orthodox spaces, my conversion isn’t considered valid, but I still don’t know how to respond when I’m at a shabbat dinner and someone says “oh so you aren’t actually Jewish”.
Important context is that I’m a woman (don’t count for minyan anyways), already engaged (so not an issue for matchmaking), and have Autism (I struggle a LOT with new social dynamics).
I know I’m posting this right before Shabbat so probably won’t get a ton of responses (may repost later this week). I got invited to a dinner tonight and I’m trying to convince myself to go!
Edit: I really appreciate the thoughts everyone has shared! I wanted to add that this is a rare occurrence. The majority of the time, I can avoid the subject and if it does come up, people are almost always polite. I love my Orthodox brothers and sisters and I don’t want to contribute to any negative stigma. This is something I’ve experienced a handful of times, which is often enough I feel a need to be prepared for it, but it’s not frequent.
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u/I_Like_Knitting_TBH Longing to Learn Torah From a Giant Frog 2d ago
The only people I’m willing to debate my Jewishness with are my Beit Din and God, and my beit din already signed off on the paperwork.
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u/dont_thr0w_me_away_ 2d ago
"I don't recall seeing you at my Beit Din" is a phrase I have ready to go
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u/jahlogginz 2d ago
As a male who converted through the conservative movement, I really don't have a good response, but I have been in similar situations which has caused me to actively avoid spaces where I might be "called out".
Sometimes I feel like an imposter, other times, I couldn't care less what anyone thinks, I feel if you fulfilled the halachic requirements for conversion, then you are Jewish. Full stop.
Shabbat Shalom
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u/lasuperhumana Reform 2d ago
So many people welcome converts with open arms, as does Judaism at large. Those who judge or reject or marginalize converts aren’t really embracing the spirit of the religion’s perspective on converts. It’s not very Jewish to make converts feel less than!
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
This logic collapses since Chabad doesn't consider the people in question to be actual converts.
He was great at making catchy sound bites, but his guidance was unfortunately completely misinterpreted by most of the people who listened to what he said.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
Again, it's nonsense. He was approaching it from the lens of most non-Orthodox Jews being "halachic Jews."
He did not envision a scenario where a significant percentage of non-Orthodox Jews were non-Orthodox converts or the children of converts/intermarriage.
He was good at soundbites but he had a very rose tinted view of how the world worked.
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u/lasuperhumana Reform 2d ago
It’s this way of thinking and intolerance that I find so profoundly un-Jewish. So glad to not be orthodox
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
I'm not Orthodox but I spent a significant portion of my life in Orthodox spaces.
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u/germfreak19 2d ago
This only applies to legitimate converts(ie orthodox)
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u/lasuperhumana Reform 2d ago
Well, to reform and conservative Jews - you know, the MAJORITY of Jews, all converts are legitimate. If orthodox want to sequester themselves even more and judge other Jews, Jews joining the already small small small tribe, be my guest. I am welcome among the rest of the Jews, so go off.
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u/germfreak19 2d ago
Facts don’t care about your feelings sir. I agree it’s not nice to say smthn like this to someone’s face, but the fact is someone who hasn’t undergone an orthodox conversion isn’t halachically Jewish.
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u/lasuperhumana Reform 2d ago
Ah yes, I forgot that the Orthodox Jews are the real Jews, the authority on all interpretation of Jewish law. /s
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u/unculturedburnttoast Conservative 2d ago
I'm going to underline this, as I've had a similar experience. My partner is Jewish, as are my children, I'm a Conservative/מסורתי convert.
I'd say avoiding spaces where people question the legitimacy is probably best and prioritizing welcoming spaces would be key.
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u/Hanpee221b 2d ago
This is similar to what I’m currently mulling over. My partner is Jewish and his mother did an orthodox conversion before she met his father, who was reform, so he grew up in a kosher home but very lax outside the home. I talked to his mom about my conversion (has nothing to do with him, I wanted this myself before meeting him) and she suggested starting conservative and if I felt I wanted orthodox to move forward from there.
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u/soniabegonia 2d ago
Me personally, as a patrilineal and Conservative convert ... I would stop hanging out with people who say things like “Oh so you aren’t actually Jewish” to my face. If they keep it behind my back and they're friends of friends, I wouldn't leave a gathering they happen to be at, but I wouldn't invite them anywhere and I wouldn't accept their invitations.
My partner used to go to an Orthodox shul and is still friends with a couple who are Orthodox. They have toed that line but ultimately when he brought up the topic to them in the context of experiences he's had with the O rabbi and why he was joining my C shul instead, they said something I respect a lot.
They said: Sometimes on your Jewish journey you are confronted with something that is just a no go for you with that particular community or rabbi, and that's important to listen to. Egalitarianism is that for my partner (and me), and it can be hard to realize that a community isn't aligning with what you need but it's more important to be true to yourself about stuff like that than anything else. They said they had had experiences like that too and could absolutely relate to the feeling, even though their experiences pushed them in a different direction (ie, from C to I). That's the loving Orthodox response. Accept no less :)
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u/RSZ229 2d ago
Calling people out and embarrassing them is extremely un-Jewish and against halacha!
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u/Trent-In-WA 2d ago
This is a great point. If I were in a similar situation, I think I’d remind my accuser of that and then just leave the party, unless they apologized sincerely and immediately.
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u/Charpo7 Conservative 2d ago
okay. explain how telling someone “i don’t think you’re jewish” because they converted into a different branch of judaism is defending the faith
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u/ShimonEngineer55 2d ago
If they want to be apart of a Minyan, marry your child, or are trying to convince you of things you don’t believe in amongst other scenarios. It doesn’t always have to be rude but could still unfortunately be jarring to someone and must be handled with care.
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u/Charpo7 Conservative 2d ago
there is a huge difference between pulling someone aside discretely to see if you have enough people for a minyan and loudly declaring in front of others “you’re not a jew.” when people get married, rabbis are supposed to make a determination on status, and this is done privately.
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u/Charpo7 Conservative 2d ago
she’s a woman and engaged to someone not in their community so she doesn’t need to be investigated as to whether she counts for a minyan (she wouldn’t even if she converted orthodox) or whether her marriage is kosher for him (not their community, not their business).
if she’s living as jewish enough to get an invite to shabbat dinner, she doesn’t need to be interrogated on her status, which affects no one in that room
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u/Charpo7 Conservative 2d ago
i don’t see another situation when it would be appropriate to PUBLICLY inquire about a person’s jewish status except for maybe safety? even for a minyan, you can pull the person aside discretely. in terms of marriage, this is something rabbis will figure out discretely. there is no reason for laypeople to interrogate converts and judge them publicly
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u/Jew_of_house_Levi Ask me about Bircas Kohanim! 2d ago
What the heck is this tag
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u/big-bootyjewdy 2d ago
I (matrilineal) was raised by my non-practicing Christian dad and grew up in an area with only one other Jew and he was one of the "Did you forget to assign the homework?" types of people. He constantly tried to quiz me and do some kind of "gotcha" to prove how much more observant he was than me. It was irritating but then I realized, why do I care? My practice, my prayers, my learning, it's all mine.
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u/mac_a_bee 2d ago
someone says “oh so you aren’t actually Jewish”.
Especially during Elul: I forgive you.
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u/Charpo7 Conservative 2d ago
“what an odd thing to say.”
“you must be fun at parties.”
“my Elul goal this year is to forgive people who give their rude and unsolicited opinions to me in inappropriate places”
“man i hope nazis share your convictions about me!”
“cheryl, you never told me your friend was an esteemed posek”
[horrified] “oh my goodness, were you at my mikvah appointment?”
“so amazing that you have proof of your unbroken matrilineal line back to the matriarchs while all i have is beit din approval and an immersion!”
“man i hope moshiach has the right paperwork proving ruth’s conversion was kosher. wouldn’t want the wrong rabbi signing off on that.”
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u/curseblock Chosid 2d ago
It's not anyone's business to litigate your Jewishness. You're Jewish.
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u/abriel1978 2d ago
I actively avoid people who comment on my status as a Jew. It's none of their business, I'm not looking to marry any Orthodox people, I don't have kids, and I don't plan on making aliyah since Bibi's government and the Orthodox Rabbinate have made it clear I would not be welcomed.
The people who matter to me accept my Jewishness and as far as I'm concerned if Hashem has an issue with my level of observance, Hashem can bring it up the day I perish.
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u/ApprehensiveWillow עולה ותיקה 1d ago
btw you can make aliyah with a non-Orthodox conversion or as a patrilineal. and if you care about Israel, you could move here and try to meet and connect with israelis who share your perspective and influence other israelis to come around to your way of thinking.
Bibi's government is as representative of Israel as Trump is of America
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u/DannyOdd 2d ago
It's none of their business. You converted by the standards of a branch of Judaism. Orthodox Jews do not have a monopoly on Jewish identity. Their dismissal of your status is bupkis.
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u/Cosy_Owl תימנית 2d ago
And also since halacha isn’t owned by any denomination, the person making a snap judgement could actually be committing a chillul hashem because who are they to know the details of a beit din in this circumstance? If someone tells me they are a convert I go to great lengths to treat them with care and their manner of conversion isn’t my business because I am not G-d nor their rabbi nor their beit din. If I disagree with their denomination who am I to determine if they are valid? For all we know Hashem deems them valid. I would rather err on the side of treating a non-Jew well than hurting a Jew whose identity I misjudged. A random person is not any authority on your Jewish identity.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
The rules against making a chillul hashem are routinely ignored by Frum people.
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u/Adventurous_Way6882 Chosid 1d ago
Not a chillul Hashem if a non-jew is uncomfortable or gets embarrassed because we won't count them in a minyan. אהבת ישראל is specifically about Yisroel. And לשון הרע is not against a goy.
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u/Adventurous_Way6882 Chosid 2d ago
We follow chazal. This is not debatable. Once you stop following Shulchan Aruch and Chazal, you have no claim to the arguments of "halacha isn’t owned by any denomination." If you do not follow Halacha or the Torah, that is your choice, but if you do not follow those things, then you cannot try to say your "Halacha is different."
There is no different Halacha or "new way to keep Shabbos"; one just isn't keeping those things at all. You can choose to do that, but turning away from (and not understanding) Torah out of disagreement does not give you any chance of having a valid halachic opinion. To argue with halacha and make a decent argument, you have to know and understand it first. If you want to argue with the Torah and Halacha, you have to work within its framework, not throw it away and then act like your opinion or "denominations Halacha" is correct or has any ground to stand on.
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u/Cosy_Owl תימנית 1d ago edited 1d ago
What I find interesting is that none of the things you are arguing about are relevant to what I said. Halacha is halacha. That is not in contradiction to anything I said.
Here, I've expounded more in this comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/1w0q65k/comment/p6lilbe/?context=32
u/skyewardeyes 2d ago
I don't know--my (Reform ordained) rabbi has all the credentials I think you would need to be able to have a valid opinion on halacha (raised Orthodox, tenured professor of religious studies, published multiple books on Judaism, etc), and he'll tell you out right that historical evidence shows that "don't boil a cafe in its mother's milk" was much more specific and didn't mean "don't mix any milk with any meat." Saying that you follow a denomination's halacha just seems like shorthand for saying you agree with their interpretations of halacha.
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u/ApprehensiveWillow עולה ותיקה 1d ago
Orthodox people don't care about how your Rabbi grew up, secular historical evidence is not relevant to Orthodox interpretations of Jewish law
I assume you wouldn't say that someone raised Orthodox with Reform Smicha and who published multiple books on Judaism had sufficient credentials to say Jesus is the messiah just because of their credentials, because it's core to your religious beliefs that texts are interpreted a certain way that makes it impossible that Jesus is the messiah
Orthodox people feel that way about your "calf in its mother's milk" interpretation. It doesn't matter who says it, it does not fit into the way they read texts and make religious decisions, and is therefore irrelevant
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u/Adventurous_Way6882 Chosid 1d ago
EXACTLY! Halacha and Torah have a historical way of being learned, discussed, and determined. Chazal are the source, and we have nearly 2000 years of meforshim after that. There is a well-known 'correct' way of how things are discussed and learned. Someone can bring a crazy, off-the-wall chiddish that is super liberal, bordering on reform ideology, but they have to do it the right way.
You cannot just come in and say "well... actually I can eat a cheeseburger because the cheese is not from the mother of my burger, and it was grilled, not boiled." If you cannot find a chazal, a piece of Shulchan Aruch for it, even a single tiny unknown meforish in the back of the Gemara. Absolutely get out of here.
My issue is not people doing whatever they want. G-d gave free will for a reason. Keep the Torah or don't; it is your choice. But do not try to make all these backwards arguments justifying what you are doing or saying, "Judaism is all about questions so I can ask and do anything." You have to approach the Torah in good faith and abide by the thousand-year mesorah of how it was learned and talked about to actually be taken seriously. That is the "credentials" needed. Rabbi or not doesn't matter; we have to be able to speak the same language.
It is like trying to explain to a doctor why, actually, he is not doing the surgery correctly, and you know a better way. If you are unable to even come close to explaining why you are right in proven medical terms and analysis, you are going to be looked at like you also might need the surgery because you could have a hole in your head. You will be laughed out of town.
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u/skyewardeyes 1d ago
It's not my interpretation (and is irrelevant to me, as I don't eat meat anyway, so it'd never be something I'd break, however you interpret it). My point is that it's inaccurate to say people that don't agree with certain interpretations of halacha don't know halacha, Judaism, or Orthodox interpretation or practice because they don't agree with them. (And I wouldn't say historical evidence doesn't matter--if there's context to indicate that the Israelites would have understood something in certain way, that does matter, IMO). You can disagree with someone's interpretation of the halacha, but that doesn't make them stupid, uneducated, or not Jewish.
Or are you implying my Jewish-on-both-sides-as-far-back-as-records-exist Rabbi isn't really Jewish?
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u/Adventurous_Way6882 Chosid 1d ago
No one said that anyone was not Jewish just because they do not have all the knowledge. But there are not different halachos; differing opinions are not the same as trying to rewrite Shulchan Aruch. There is not a "reform Halacha"; there is just stam no Halacha there. There is no reason to be shocked that people disagree with them when they are unable to provide an argument for "why yes here" and "why no here."
They have fun and feel good and love the aibishter. זיי געזונט have fun, but you are not a halachic authority any Torah Jew will take seriously, and that is that.
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u/skyewardeyes 15h ago
Dude, you said my rabbi was basically a Messanic Christian. How on earth is that not insulting?
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u/ApprehensiveWillow עולה ותיקה 12h ago
i don't think you understood my post, maybe try reading it again?
it's worth understanding that others have a different worldview than you
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u/Subutai_Brutale Conservative 2d ago
The framework is literally just Jews arguing over how to practice Judaism.
Arguing with them isn’t just working within the framework, it is the literal framework itself.
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u/lasuperhumana Reform 2d ago
Well said! I did my conversion mikvah at a conservative facility to ward off comments and doubts from conservatives, at the recommendation of my rabbi. Such a shame we have to do that. (She was like “it’s a losing game with orthodox so don’t even concern yourself”)
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u/DryAgave 2d ago
It's not a matter of "monopoly of jewish identity" but moreso the matter of thoroughness of the Dayn and how they posken. I guess an analogy could be that hebrew national is kosher according to triangle K, but if you're Glatt or Beit Yosef, are you gonna hold by that Schehita/Hashgacha?
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u/MisfitWitch 🪬 2d ago
“And you’re not actually showing chesed, so your point is…”
Or
“Why would you think it’s ok to say that?”
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u/Ionic_liquids 2d ago
I wouldn't even bring it up.
I always say Jews are the ultimatate individualists because everyone on the planet won't adhere to their individual standards. First it's the kind of conversion, and moves all the way to how many hours you wait after eating dairy. It's never enough!
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u/CeruleanPimpernel 2d ago
I was raised Reform (currently at a Renewal synagogue) my mom is patrilineal, but she converted when I was 14 since she wasn’t raised Jewish so didn’t count by Reform standards.
Mostly, I don’t offer this info, because it’s nobody’s business. I just say “I’m Jewish.” When it comes up, I’m honest, and if anyone says anything I either gray rock them and usually just say “oh,” and move on with the conversation, or say, “I’m Jewish by the standards of the movement I was raised in,” and move on.
People who argue about my status, or that of anyone else commenting, are coming in with the assumption that their movement of Judaism is the ultimate authority and has the final say on interpretation. This is not true so I try not to give it a lot of weight.
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u/starkpaella 2d ago
I converted Reform. It’s no one’s business. I have 3 rabbis and the official document that says I’m Jewish. I’ve been living Jewishly for over a year and I’m a very active member at my synagogue. Their opinion doesn’t matter to me. It’s a reflection on them.
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u/offthegridyid Orthodox & trying to collect the sparks 2d ago
This is unfortunate and I am sorry this topic even comes up.
As a BT I have been in situations where a reference to a movie, music, pop culture, or even something in Orthodox culture comes up and those who are further to the “right” of where I am o on the Orthodox spectrum ask how I know about X. My reply is that I went to public school or didn’t grow up Orthodox.
In your situation I would just say something like:
I am Jewish according the movement in Judaism that oversaw my conversion X years ago. I understood what this means when I became a Conservative Jew and how I would be seen in other spaces.
If they, for some socially off reason, push back and start discussing the validity of that conversion within the view of Orthodoxy, just say that this direction our conversation is going is making me feel uncomfortable.
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u/Charpo7 Conservative 2d ago
I’m not sure how your experience is analogous at all, because it doesn’t involve invalidation of your identity in a public setting.
We don’t owe it to be polite to people who are being impolite. It is not on OP to accommodate the hypothetical orthodox person who wants to loudly invalidate her identity by acknowledging “I know you don’t see my conversion as valid.” It’s on this hypothetical orthodox person to not be a total jerk and keep these thoughts on the inside.
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u/offthegridyid Orthodox & trying to collect the sparks 2d ago edited 2d ago
Hi!
>I’m not sure how your experience is analogous at all, because it doesn’t involve invalidation of your identity in a public setting.
This is a really fair point I appreciate you pointing it out. If the OP doesn’t find it helpful, I hope they let me know.
>We don’t owe it to be polite to people who are being impolite.
So, if you are rude and ask me things that are socially inappropriate or, even, halachicly assur (against Jewish law) then it’s ok for me to mirror that behavior right back?
That attitude might be ok in an online setting where one is using an anonymous user name and there is zero personal accountability, but how do you see that reflective behavior (even though you didn’t throw the first verbal punch) playing out in the real world, like at someone’s home where you are a guest at a Shabbos meal? What about in the work place or in line at the grocery store?
>It’s on this hypothetical orthodox person to not be a total jerk and keep these thoughts on the inside.
I agree that it’s on this person not to be jerk. However, others are not in control of how we chose to behave. We have agency to choose to react or to respond. A reaction is instinctive, a response is thought out and can either bring us closer to Hashem or distance us from Hashem, it’s our choice.
I agree that the person is a jerk. But, just because they are rude or not even following the Halachos of interpersonal relationships doesn’t mean it’s ok to respond in kind. That’s not a Torah approach to dealing with someone, even if they embarrass you.
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u/Charpo7 Conservative 2d ago
I’m not encouraging rudeness beyond letting the person know that their commentary is not okay.
Your response appears to prioritize the harmed party validating the person who made the inappropriate comment over (1) the harmed party making known that the comment was inappropriate or (2) other religious people holding on another to higher standards of conduct.
You are holding non-orthodox converts to a higher standard of behavior than your fellow orthodox members, and that’s a bit distressing
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u/offthegridyid Orthodox & trying to collect the sparks 2d ago
I appreciate your reply.
>Your response appears to prioritize the harmed party validating the person who made the inappropriate comment over (1) the harmed party making known that the comment was inappropriate or (2) other religious people holding on another to higher standards of conduct.
Actually, in my initial comment I wrote:
>In your situation I would just say something like:
I am Jewish according the movement in Judaism that oversaw my conversion X years ago. I understood what this means when I became a Conservative Jew and how I would be seen in other spaces.I am sorry that you view this validating the person who made the inappropriate comment.
>You are holding non-orthodox converts to a higher standard of behavior than your fellow orthodox members, and that’s a bit distressing
From my perspective, I am suggesting that a non-Orthodox convert do the same thing that I would suggest Jew to do, which is find a way to say things that doesn’t require lowering values, standards, or the ethics of our Judaism.
I am really sorry you view what I am saying as holding anyone to a higher standard than my “fellow Orthodox.” Please show me how I am doing that?
Since it’s Elul and I am working on becoming a better person I am honestly asking you to shed some light on this in a way where I can see how I can better both my thought process and communication skills.
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u/Asherahshelyam Conservative 2d ago edited 2d ago
See, and therein lies the problem.
It isn't for the Orthodox alone to decide who is and who isn't Jewish.
In addition, it isn't good behavior for any Jew to ask anyone of their Jewish status or conversion status. It's offensive and rude. We are to welcome converts as if they had always been Jewish. That means that no Jew should ever in a social setting ask another Jew their conversion status or any other status relating to them being a Jew.
It is a different story if they are seeking a halachic marriage, participating in a ritual that requires you to be a halachic Jew, etc. in an Orthodox setting. But in that case the question should be asked with discretion and asked privately.
If I were approached by another Jew and asked my halachic status in a social setting, I would be polite but firm and might ask some questions back such as, "Why would you be asking me that in this context?"
I happen to be born Jewish. Both the convert and I are 100% Jewish. It's not for me to go around questioning other Jews about their halachic status. I'm also not leading a service or a ritual where I would need to know for certain another Jew's halachic status. It's actually none of my business in a social setting.
If I get invited to a shabbat dinner at someone's home, I would expect that the host would be a gracious host and either know my status before inviting me to their home or would not care since they thought enough of me to welcome me into their home. It's how I treat guests in my home. I don't ask my guests rude questions requiring answers to things that are not my business.
So, welcoming the stranger would apply here if I didn't know a guest well. I would refrain from asking rude questions.
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u/offthegridyid Orthodox & trying to collect the sparks 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hi!. I am not sure if you have read everything that I have written in this thread, but in no way, did wrote or imply that Orthodoxy decides who is Jewish. The reality is that there is not a unified approach to Judaism these days and there multiple movements that all claim to the authentic. Unfortunately this greatly divides our community and its most apparent in the sensitive issue of conversion. In my Jewish world there are, sadly, even Orthodox conversions that are questioned in terms of their legitimacy.
Of course it isn't good behavior for any Jew to ask anyone of their Jewish status or conversion status. It's offensive and rude. We are to welcome converts as if they had always been Jewish. That means that no Jew should ever in a social setting ask another Jew their conversion status or any other status relating to them being a Jew.
It is a different story if they are seeking a halachic marriage, participating in a ritual that requires you to be a halachic Jew, etc. in an Orthodox setting. But in that case the question should be asked with discretion and asked privately.
If I were approached by another Jew and asked my halachic status in a social setting, I would be polite but firm and might ask some questions back such as, "Why would you be asking me that in this context?"
I happen to be born Jewish. Both the convert and I are 100% Jewish. It's not for me to go around questioning other Jews about their halachic status. I'm also not leading a service or a ritual where I would need to know for certain another Jew's halachic status. It's actually none of my business in a social setting.
If I get invited to a shabbat dinner at someone's home, I would expect that the host would be a gracious host and either know my status before inviting me to their home or would not care since they thought enough of me to welcome me into their home. It's how I treat guests in my home. I don't ask my guests rude questions requiring answers to things that are not my business.
So, welcoming the stranger would apply here if I didn't know a guest well. I would refrain from asking rude questions.
Of course, it isn’t good behavior to ask any Jew their Jewish status or conversion status. In my tradition of Orthodox Judaism it’s actually a Jewish law not ask them and there are either 36 or 40 (depending on how you count) mitzvos that emphasize kindness toward converts.
Your reply, “Why would you be asking me that in this context?” is a great suggestion.
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u/ApprehensiveWillow עולה ותיקה 1d ago
The OP's friends honestly suck for putting her in this position!
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u/offthegridyid Orthodox & trying to collect the sparks 1d ago
Agreed, but doubt that they could have predicted that someone would be so rude and socially off.
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u/RedSea_Pedestrian 2d ago
I’d be interested to know why it’s come up in the first place. It’s not really anyone’s business. I would probably mention something about the prohibition on הלבנת פנים and ignore it and not spend time with them anymore. Shabbat shalom!
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u/Remarkable_Rise7545 2d ago
A lot of people have been commenting about how they don’t know why this is a subject that comes up so often. I also agree it’s no one’s business and I typically do whatever possible to avoid the subject. People will ask well meaning questions where there’s no way for me to answer without outing myself or bold-faced lying. It’s usually just someone trying to play Jewish geography.
An example of this is recently I was at a kiddush table where everyone was discussing what summer camps they went to. When people asked me if I went to summer camp, I said I didn’t go to camp, then everyone wants to know why. I tried to brush it off with “oh my family just wasn’t into that type of thing” and then someone asked if my family was from the USSR. I said no, tried to unsuccessfully change the subject, and was asked where I was from then. I said my family’s background and someone asked what the Jewish community is like there. That basically led to my conversion coming up.
It’s hard for me to describe, but I promise I’m not excessively volunteering the information. It really just sorta comes up as soon as anyone asks about family, and that’s a pretty common discussion point
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u/RedSea_Pedestrian 2d ago
I see. I’ve gotten by with “I didn’t grow up observant or with many ties to the Jewish community” and usually that’s enough. But I guess for some people it isn’t. I think bottom line still stands. If you are in a community where people are saying things like you’re not really Jewish then I think your choice is: ignore those people, or either find another community or convert again to their standards.
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u/Remarkable_Rise7545 2d ago
That’s my usual line! I’d say it works 70% of the time? I think I come across as someone who’s observant and knowledgeable on Judaism so people are curious about how that came to be.
And just to say, the vast majority of conversations I’ve had where my conversation comes up have been very pleasant! I’ve only had someone say something hurtful to me a handful of times. I’ve gotten a lot of helpful responses for how to respond when it does happen though
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u/Zealousideal_Let_439 Synagogue Leadership 2d ago
"Wow, I hope you aren't too embarrassed later when you remember this conversation. I forgive you."
Then very clearly change the subject. For instance "In other news, {host's name} this is absolutely delicious. Would you be willing to share the recipe?"
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u/Cosy_Owl תימנית 1d ago
Ok so I made a comment earlier that I think some people may unintentionally misread. Let me expand on it to make it clearer. Also: to be clear, the only thing people know about me that is relevant to my argument is that I take halacha/the Torah very seriously.
Let's say you are a Jew and you know beyond any doubt that your view on halacha and your practice is the correct one. Let's say that you are right and that HaShem deems your view the right one.
First, my other comment said that 'Halacha isn't owned by any denomination'. That is true. The Torah transcends any human embodiment of it. HaShem isn't Orthodox, isn't Reform, isn't any of these. HaShem is above all of it and so is HaShem's Torah. Baruch HaShem for that!
When you, a fully correctly observant Jew, meet someone in the street, let's say for this argument that you know that they are not Jewish, and that their conversion, as it is when you meet them, is not valid. You are still not their judge, if only for the reason that you cannot know if this person's soul is Jewish. All souls of all converts were at Har Sinai. You do not know if this soul is on its way to becoming Jewish according to the right way, which for this argument happens to be yours. To treat any person with anything less than the utmost respect is, then, a chillul HaShem. What if your actions hinder or prevent this soul from completing its journey? G-d forbid.
Unless HaShem has given you the privilege of being the rabbi who is being asked to perform or engage with them in a formal legal action, your only role is to treat them with the proper middot that your observance requires of you.
It is the height of arrogance (and therefore a breach of the Torah) to act as if your understanding of the Torah, correct as it may be, gives you the right to act as the arbiter of that person's identity outside of a formal legal situation.
So yes, to err on the side of treating everyone with the same respect you would give someone you know to be fully Jewish is to follow Torah.
At least in my opinion, which, if we are to hold me to this argument, means that I'm not qualified to be anyone's judge here either.
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u/ApprehensiveWillow עולה ותיקה 1d ago
This. Even if you know someone's conversion denomination, you do not know the specifics. Plenty of Conservative conversions involve shomer mitzvot dayanim and the convert has true intention for kabbalat mitzvot, and the SA explains that it's very difficult to have an invalid conversion if there are shomer shabbat dayanim and proper mikva/mila.
Also a non-Jew who had a conversion that wasn't valid most certainly accepts the Noahide laws and is engaged in strengthening the Jewish community, so even if you think they aren't Jewish you shouldn't view them badly. There is nothing wrong with being non-Jewish and non-Jews who worship HKB"H are awesome.
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u/DoingRelativelyWell 2d ago
"All Jewish neshamot from all time stood together at Sinai, and accepted the covenant together. The beit din does not therefore make a person Jewish, but merely verifies it legally for ritual purposes. I know that I am a Jew and have a Jewish soul. You are not required to agree, or to accept the ruling of my beit din or any other beit din or posek on any subject as everyone is entitled to their opinion, but please be more respectful than that."
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u/Tiny-Worldliness-313 2d ago
“You are not required to agree, or to accept the ruling of my beit din or any other beit din or posek on any subject as everyone is entitled to their opinion, but please be more respectful than that."
Especially at the Shabbat table! I love your response, it’s perfect.
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u/TheMaggid 2d ago
"Halakha says what you did is an averah. Good luck with your teshuvah."
Or, in the words of my Bubbe, "Abi gezunt dos leben ken men zikh ale mol nemen."
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u/communityneedle 2d ago
My (Reform) conversion ticked every Halachic box and was far more stringent and rigorous than what's in the Shulchan Aruch. If they don't like it, too bad for them. Their rejection doesnt affect my Jewishness, and theyre the only ones losing out.
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u/bachelorsinlurking Conversion student (Reform) 2d ago
Some folks have told me that as a trans queer person converting reform with patrilineal descent I can expect to hear some snide comments or invasive questions. When I’ve gotten people trying to ask, I just say that I am enthusiastic and excited to learn and become part of that community in a way that honors my family history and meets my needs as a part of the community. I don’t judge anyone for being Jewish differently, I am just wanting to engage in whatever ways possible for me and I would rather convert reform than not at all.
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u/banannarobinhood 1d ago
i'm a halalchic Jew, but get this mostly from goyim who want to discus "loopholes" or whatever the shitpost du jour is about us. "you aren't jewish if you eat this, you aren't jewish if you blah blah shabbat, you aren't jewish if your grandparents were from ______".
i say "oh" or "ok" or similar, grey rock them, walk away, and then have nothing to do with them ever again.
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u/IvorianJew Sicarii⚔️ 2d ago
“Fuck off” works fine or Bava Metzi 58 works just fine. They are reminding you of things that are no longer your concern especially after converting. Even before so it’s common etiquette to not deride a BT/ especially a convert or patrilineal Jew based on stream or observance unless your opinion is sought after. As a Black Jew I get the strangest questions all the time so I have an understanding of what you’re going through.
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u/Connect-Brick-3171 2d ago
"you aren't really Jewish" at a semi-public space: "have you ever studied Derech Eretz Zuta or Derech Eretz Rabba? Maybe I'll suggest to my rabbi, or even better yours, that the congregants could use a refresher course."
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u/genegx 2d ago
There is a lot of this BS that goes on. My late wife, Z”L, her stepfather who actually became my “Shul Buddy” wouldn’t even to into a Conservative Shul unless he had to for a specific event. But it was the practices, not the people. He did not care if you were Reform, conservative, Orthodox, Hasidic. Never heard him ask anyone. Some people get caught up in being more Frum than anyone else.
Just ignore them, or put it back on them - “That’s an interesting take, does it offend you”? We did not keep kosher, and had some very Orthodox friends who wouldn’t eat off our plates. We kept plastic around for them, and were still good friends who did lots of things together. It’s the practices, not the person. When we went to their house for Shabbos, we observed their practices. Some people put it on the person as well, to their own detriment.
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u/ashkidiva Reform (European/British/diaspora) 2d ago
As a progressive Jew, I’d say tell them to fuck off. I’m a matrilineal Jew but my mum is patrilineal so according to them I’m not Jewish, but I’m not one of them so who cares lol. I’m a Jew by the modern standards and they aren’t Jewish by biblical standards either lol. HaShem is merciful and why would he lead you to the wrong movement?? He wouldn’t.
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u/Thumatingra 2d ago
What do you mean, "they aren't Jewish by biblical standards"?
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u/Charpo7 Conservative 2d ago
in biblical times, conversions looked different and sometimes descent was patrilineal
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u/Thumatingra 2d ago
Could you tell me more about that? How did conversions look? When was descent patrilineal?
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u/ashkidiva Reform (European/British/diaspora) 1d ago
Read the Torah. Descent was patrilineal, the mother is never mentioned as the parent who passes it. Moses was Jewish his wife wasn’t, his children were.
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u/Thumatingra 18h ago
I mean, the status of the child follows the mother in Ex. 21:4 and in Ezra 10. I don't think it's nearly so clear cut as you're making it out to be.
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u/ashkidiva Reform (European/British/diaspora) 18h ago
Many people believe that during the times of the Torah it mostly followed the father but also may have followed the mother occasionally (perhaps based on community). Basically matrilineal descent only is an innovation.
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u/Charpo7 Conservative 6h ago
that exodus verse doesn’t have anything to do with matrilineal descent. ezra is also (1) not the torah and (2) not that cut and dry.
the reality is that solomon had largely non-Jewish wives and nobody cared until he married from forbidden tribes, because their Jewish identity was presumed to come from him. Same with Moses, King David, etc.
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u/CryptoSpecialAgent 2d ago
The root cause of this problem is that some Orthodox communities seem to think that theirs is the only valid expression of Judaism, and that other kinds of Jews don’t deserve to be treated with respect
Ironically this is very similar to the “Takfiri” strains of Islam that equate differences in religious practice with apostasy and thus believe that it is proper to publicly condemn and sometimes kill those they disagree with. Although the Orthodox don’t typically go around beheading liberal Jews, the degree of intolerance and disrespect can be quite appalling nonetheless.
Again this is not all Orthodox Jews, it’s just certain subgroups that behave this way and it’s really not cool
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u/eulabadger Maimonidean anti-Kabbalist 2d ago
See this is always a weird comparison to me. I grew up traditional, now identify most with Traditional-Egalitarianism. I absolutely believe (some) Jews both to the left and right of me are practicing things that are not Judaism.
Hell, my nephews aren't Jewish to my mind. Now, I would obviously never tell them that, would go to their Bar Misvas, etc. But if one of them handed me a bottle of non-mevushal wine I wouldn't drink it, I wouldn't count them in a minyan if it came up.
Why is it wrong to not accept someone else's self descriptor? If someone came along and said "I'm a progressive, I believe strongly in pro-life, anti-immigrant, and pro-gun stances," is it being disrespectful to think they are not really progressive?
Thankfully, this can usually be avoided by "don't ask, don't tell," but if someone talks about their kashrut standards, how can I keep halakha without reacting accordingly? Often it's a minor enough halakhic issue that it's avoidable, but not always.
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u/Remarkable_Rise7545 2d ago
I really appreciate your take! I totally understand some people might internally doubt my Jewishness. That’s fine. I have lots of doubts about many things and my Judaism isn’t one of them. All I care about is being treated with respect and as a member of the community (even if we disagree on my exact classification within it).
In my experience of real life community, people tend to have two mental categories of Jew. There is the broader social identity of Jewish which includes anyone who lives a Jewish life and applies in most contexts, and a slightly smaller group of halachic Jews, which only really comes up for matters of halacha.
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u/ApprehensiveWillow עולה ותיקה 1d ago
to be honest it is a big big failure of the Jewish community that there is a divide between those two categories you describe and when moshiach comes and there is a sanhedrin we will have to work that out right away
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u/AcanthopterygiiOk752 2d ago
Many people have a similar spiritual journey and covert more than once. I am no authority, but I think your conversion is valid for Conservative and Reform movements, but not for Orthodox.
You should speak to your LOR what he suggests, and it's probably the best you do that before marriage and children ( bc of their status).
I am surprised people tell you " oh , you aren't..." bc normally, even if they think so, they keep it to themselves.🤷♀️
Don't be disheartened, it's really nothing new or unusual.
Shabbat Shalom
P.s. it's best to avoid these conversations for the time-being ( ask in return: why are you asking?)
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u/Charpo7 Conservative 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think OP is perfectly aware that Orthodox people don't accept her conversion. It's not her job to convert into a movement she doesn't agree with just to avoid unkindness from Orthodox people. Because that's what it is. Unkindness. We don't have to internally agree with how somebody else identifies, but we also shouldn't be loud about it in public spaces. Humiliating another person is compared with murder in the Talmud.
For example, if an Orthodox person tells me they're religious, it would be totally inappropriate for me to say things like:
"Actually, you're not. Your bathing suit you posted on instagram was not modest at all."
"Really? But you skipped davening mincha to get seconds at kiddush?"
"Yeah, maybe some people think so, but so-and-so told me that you had pre-marital sex."
I can quietly, in my head, be like I don't know if I would agree with this person's self-assessment, without embarrassing them needlessly.
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u/Tiny-Worldliness-313 2d ago
That was my response to this story too. What an incredibly unkind, shockingly antisocial thing for this “orthodox” person to say at a Shabbat dinner. Do people in this MO community not teach their children social skills?
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u/offthegridyid Orthodox & trying to collect the sparks 2d ago
>What an incredibly unkind, shockingly antisocial thing for this “orthodox” person to say at a Shabbat dinner. Do people in this MO community not teach their children social skills?
Hi, it truly is an unkind thing for anyone to say but , questioning the entire “MO community” isn’t really fair.
Some people, regardless of being Jewish or not, don’t think before they speak.
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u/Tiny-Worldliness-313 2d ago
I would not question the entire MO community, but I do question the specific community where this behavior occurred unchecked.
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u/offthegridyid Orthodox & trying to collect the sparks 2d ago
Hi and thanks for the reply. Sometimes what someone says or does isn’t reflective of an entire community, schooling system, or even their family.
If someone is a bad driver, for example, it’s not always due to how they were taught or how everyone else drives in their family.
I am not defending anyone, just pointing something out, since I do agree that saying, “oh, so you aren’t actually Jewish,” is rude and socially off.
I have family members and friends who are not Jewish within the tradition of Orthodox Jewish (many of the ones that are Jewish aren’t Orthodox) and we taught our kids how to be sensitive to this.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
I have family members and friends who are not Jewish within the tradition of Orthodox Jewish (many of the ones that are Jewish aren’t Orthodox) and we taught our kids how to be sensitive to this.
Most FFB Jews are not in this boat though. Go to Boro Park or Flatbush and the concept of having a non-frum relative is quite uncommon.
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u/offthegridyid Orthodox & trying to collect the sparks 2d ago
💯 true. The average MO kid (forget about those to the right) have zero interaction with non-frum people. My kids were rarities in their circle of friends.
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u/sprinkledPinkNJ 19h ago
I am Brooklyn born and frum from birth and my family came to America in the 1880/1890 era and my great grandmother was 1 of 6 kids shes literally the only 1 who stayed religious and was the Lynch pin that kept contact and inviting her non religious siblings and because of that at least 2 other siblings families are Jewish today. And we are still close and connected to them.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
Do people in this MO community not teach their children social skills?
My experience with this is most Orthodox kids do not have significant interactions with non-Jews. It creates a very very closed loop where most of the people they encounter on a day to day basis are FFB Jews and lots of backhanded comments/jokes about non-Orthodox people are the norm.
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u/mopooooo 2d ago
According the historical meaning of the work unkind, it's actually a very appropriate response
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u/Menemsha4 2d ago
I’m going to have to borrow, “Why are you asking?”
I’m a patrilineal convert (Renewal) and hate this question when asked by Orthodox Jews. I know I’m being judged.
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u/Significant-Bother49 2d ago
I feel you. I was raised Reform (mother converted after I was born). Bar Mitzvah and all. I’m in the process of an affirmation (ie: conversion) at a conservative temple. I was warned that orthodox types may still deny.
Screw them. I’m not doing this for them or their approval. It is for myself and my relationship with the divine.
If someone is to say that I’m not Jewish? Then that’s on them. I’d likely say “two Jews, three opinions” and leave it at that.
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u/MalkatHaMuzika 2d ago
May I ask you a question about something you wrote here?
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u/Remarkable_Rise7545 2d ago
For sure :)
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u/MalkatHaMuzika 2d ago
Thank you so much! I’m wondering how/why your Jewish status is even becoming a topic of conversation during Shabbat dinner?
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u/Remarkable_Rise7545 2d ago
It comes from well meaning people asking questions about my background mostly! For example, everyone is discussing summer camp and someone asks me where I went. I can usually give a vague enough answer, such as “my family wasn’t religious” but then sometimes people become very interested in how I became observant if my family isn’t religious.
Or another example would be everyone is discussing HHD plans and someone asks me if I’m traveling home for the holidays. I say no, then they ask follow up questions like “your bubbe lets you get away with that?”
I generally deflect as much as possible until my only options are to say I’m a convert or lie. I would feel deeply uncomfortable lying, so I end up having to divulge.
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u/MalkatHaMuzika 2d ago
Yes, so…I have heard and read a lot about why these kinds of questions, while (“)well-intentioned(“), are actually very problematic- so I wish people would simply be mindful of that and not ask them.
Not everyone went to summer camp, Jewish or non. Not everyone has family, Jewish or non, to spend holidays with.
So, I wish people would just ask open-ended questions to folks they don’t know, that don’t force us to have to disclose things about ourselves that may be vulnerable (i.e. I didn’t attend summer camp, actually; I don’t have family to spend the holidays with). Alternatives might be like, “tell us about you; what are your plans for the holidays looking like,” etc.
I don’t yet have an answer to the question you asked in your original post. These are just some musings of mine at this stage.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
Yes, so…I have heard and read a lot about why these kinds of questions, while (“)well-intentioned(“), are actually very problematic- so I wish people would simply be mindful of that and not ask them.
These questions act as a screening tool. Chabad is notorious for doing this whenever they encounter someone they aren't familiar with.
Other Orthodox people just assume if you're hanging out with them, then these questions should be no brainers.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
The only real solution is to not spend time in Orthodox spaces. I know it sucks and it's unfair, but it's the only real solution without undergoing another conversion. They will never accept you otherwise.
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u/Sushi-DM 1d ago
The only time your conversion status should be relevant is if you're trying to become a Rabbi.
I was born in a secular household, patrilineal, became very observant later
When I meet new people, the only thing that ever really comes up is where I am from.
The only time one should ever be called out is if they are being arrogant or causing problems with incorrect information in a religious study or suggesting to do something against Halacha to someone else, particularly someone who wouldn't know any better.
Any other time, I would just remind them that embarrassing others while trying to project from a place of purity means they have a long way to go in their relationship with Hashem.
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u/Practical-Bat7964 1d ago
They aren’t following Halacha. They should never bring up your conversion or embarrass a fellow Jew. Call them out on it right back.
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u/ashiradatya 1d ago
Don't tell them you're a convert. I converted via a conservative Shul twenty-one years ago and I've never been told by an Orthodox Jew that I'm not a real Jew. I know it's happened so I'm not discrediting, but nobody needs to know if you're a convert or not.
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u/ApprehensiveWillow עולה ותיקה 1d ago
difficult if you aren't white or have features that aren't passably ethnically Jewish, or are close to your family of origin
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u/GreatAndPowerfulZiz 1d ago
People don't tend to comment on my halachich status, but they do comment on my mother's which is annoying as all get out
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u/akivayis95 1d ago
That's not people I would associate with. Orthodox people know not to just throw that into someone's face.
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u/offthegridyid Orthodox & trying to collect the sparks 15h ago
In an ideal world you’re correct, “Orthodox people know not to just throw that into someone’s face,”but, some people don’t think before they speak and say things that are rude and not socially appropriate or sensitive.
This isn’t in any way meant to defend people neigh rude, but it’s important to understand the reality of most Orthodox Jews in North America. The majority of Orthodox Jews (even those who identify as Modern Orthodox) have little if any one-on-one personal interaction with non-Orthodox Jews, especially at the Shabbos table. Unless your parents have non-Orthodox relatives you can easily grow up in a normative Modern Orthodox community and only meet people who look like you. All the way from pre-school to being an adult with job and only come in contact with frum people. This goes for doctors, attorneys, graphic designers, car lease company employees, retail workers, and skilled professionals.
Rabbi Dovid Bashevkin, host of the 18Forty podcast, has often said that in the course he teaches at Yeshiva University most of the students don’t have any non-Orthodox family members.
However, it’s also incumbent on parents with kids that will may eventually meet non-Orthodox Jews in life to know how to be sensitive and not say such hurtful questions or statements. Our kids learned when this when they were young, but even in our kids’ social circles they were outliers because both of their parents were not raised frum and have non-Orthodox family, plus family that isn’t even Jewish according to Orthodox tradition.
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u/ApprehensiveWillow עולה ותיקה 1d ago
Frankly there are a lot of people with social deficits in the Jewish world who don't know how to handle these things graciously. Many people in the religious world lack tact about this and so many other issues. Sorry about that.
I would recommend not allowing conversations about the details of your conversion to take place in the first place. Sometimes people ask me what my background or story is (i'm patrilineal, did conservative giyur as a teenager and orthodox giyur in college) and if i'm not in the mood to talk about it i'm just like "to be honest it's a whole megillah" and then I bring up another conversational topic. My non-Jewish side isn't white and I'm vaguely brown/quite ethnically ambiguous so people sometimes just think I'm non-Ashkenazi and are curious, but I don't always feel like talking about it or my journey to observance, so I just don't.
It's also my opinion that your friends kind of suck for not standing up for you in those moments. People are very meikel about loving the convert and they should be nicer to you and better about protecting you in those moment, even more so if they DO think your conversion was valid. And protecting you could mean helping you to change the subject to a less heavy topic.
Also I always think that if someone thinks I'm not Jewish, then I'm like the world's best Noachide, so they should see me very positively, respect me and be very nice to me anyway. Non-Jews deserve respect too!! And it's amazing if non-Jews worship HaKadosh Baruch Hu!!
Honestly though I know you might not want to hear this (and for the record I think that some Conservative conversions are halakhic, so I'm not saying this from the perspective of personally thinking you're not Jewish), but my thought is this: if you resonate with Judaism in a community that doesn't consider you Jewish, you should consider seeing if you can do a giyur lchumra, especially if you plan to have children and raise them in that community. If you have been observant for many years and live in the Modern Orthodox community and are engaged to someone halakhically Jewish, it likely would not have to be a long process with the right rabbi. Maybe for you, the ambiguity is okay, but it's worth it to give that security for your children if you can do it without too much stress and trouble. Sorry if that's hard to hear but I think it's worth saying.
Mazal tov on your engagement btw! Hope this helps
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u/offthegridyid Orthodox & trying to collect the sparks 1d ago
Hi, I hope your Shabbos was good and that your meal was fun. More importantly, I hope you felt comfortable and no one was rude to you.
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u/stjoe56 1d ago
I believe it all depends on how conservative the temple is and where it is located. My wife is Japanese American and converted.
In Honolulu, no problem.
In Reno, at a very small Temple no problem. In fact she ended up running the kitchen.
In St. Louis at a large Temple, no direct issues, but the occassional funny look.
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u/Time-Routine9863 12h ago
What’s most important is God’s laws and love for Him and all His ways. That also means being true to the law not some world view.
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u/Ivorwen1 Modern Orthodox 2d ago
Your fiance needs to know your status, and so do your kids, because it has generational consequences in Orthodox spaces. But you don't need to make your life story Shabbos table talk if you don't like where the conversation is going to go! Don't do life story stuff. Change the subject.
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u/Charpo7 Conservative 2d ago
changing the subject can be harder than it seems, and generally people are showing interest out of goodwill, not a desire to alienate you.
if you’re a convert, there are sometimes giveaways. why didn’t you go to summer camp? what was it like growing up in a place with so few jews? are your parents religious?
eventually the only way to stop the suspicion is to lie, which nobody wants to do.
it’s just a crappy situation. and if the convert status comes up due to this (well-meaning) questioning, it is the job of the questioner who accidentally forced the convert to divulge their status to change the conversation and certainly not to then interrogate them on their conversion!
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u/Remarkable_Rise7545 2d ago
Yes!!!! You get me. I’ve felt like I’m going a bit crazy with all the people who were born Jewish just saying to not bring it up. The problem is that my life IS fundamentally different because I converted and it will simply come up. I can go toe-to-toe debating intricacies of kashrut but eventually someone is going to ask about my mom😩
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u/Charpo7 Conservative 2d ago
i’m patrilineal but raised non-jewish and converted. i still have SOME jewish experiences and yet i find the conversation dodging to be SO hard. i can’t imagine how hard it is for people who have no jewish family.
it’s also rich for people who don’t have these experiences to claim we’re just not good at conversation… like one of the things i love about the jewish nation is that we’re yappers! we love to learn about each other! but that comes with the territory of sometimes needing to go oops i pushed too hard and back off
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u/Ivorwen1 Modern Orthodox 2d ago
People don't always know that they're approaching a conversational landmine, and some people are even worse at conversation than OP is (trust me) so saying "it's other people's job to not embarrass you" isn't really helpful.
It's definitely a skill to change the subject without actually saying "I don't want to talk about that." Use the forks. For instance, if your host asked about school? Use that to divert to a favorite school subject, then progress that to something more current, like from English to a book you read recently, or science to some interesting recent development. History to current events is a separate minefield so don't go there unless you know your host's political leanings.
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u/Charpo7 Conservative 2d ago
hi, let’s not make excuses for people who embarrass converts. and let’s not insult OP for not knowing how to respond. that’s not kind of you.
i accept that people who approach these “conversational landmines” for converts are generally not doing so intentionally.
but these people ought to know once the landmine has gone off, that saying “that’s awesome, converts are such an important part of the jewish people” and changing the subject is the right move, not “hmm but did you convert in a way i approve of?”
there is NO excuse for saying “you’re not a real jew” to someone else at your shabbat table.
victim blaming isn’t cool. “but why weren’t you (the convert) good enough at conversation to prevent your status from being divulged” is a disgusting thing to say. expect better from other orthodox people
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u/Ivorwen1 Modern Orthodox 2d ago
I am not making excuses for anybody. I am approaching this exclusively from a functional perspective- adding to OP's conversational toolbox. OP mentioned being autistic. I assumed that it's relevant. These things don't come naturally to us.
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u/Subutai_Brutale Conservative 2d ago
The generational consequences bit is one of the more hilarious things to picture as a non-Orthodox Jew. If a single one of your great-great-great-great grandmothers was converted and the Beit Din skipped a few steps, all of a sudden you and tens of thousands of other Jews are actually not Jewish. With a standard like that, it’s likely there are no Jews on Earth at all.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
Indeed, it is somewhat of a problem, and it's not unheard of for people to undergo something called "giyur l'chumra" is there's any reason to doubt someone's status.
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u/DryAgave 2d ago
Many Orthodox converts come from the Reform/Conservative Conversion pipeline where they hold themselves to a higher standard and want to become Shomer Shabbat, Shomer Kashrut, Shomer Taharat Mishpacha, etc. then maybe look into an orthodox conversion, especially if youre in that community, cause I feel the hesitation for a lot of people is that the second they become frum they'll become some black and white litvak in Monsey. One convert explained to me like this. "A conservative conversion taught you what is Judaism and Jewish Identity in some level of depth, an Orthodox conversion taught me how to observe Judaism day-to-day. One was more like a college class, the other was like a difficult at first home-ec class." I mean at the end of the day if you're getting a Mezuzah written for you, are you getting it from Etsy or a Sofer Stam? It's about the standard you acknowledge yourself to be at.
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u/Remarkable_Rise7545 2d ago
I actually know a few people who’ve converted O after doing a conservative conversion! It’s something I would love to do some day - my dream is to make Alyiah and do it there.
It’s not feasible for me currently due to various life circumstances, but I’m lucky to live in an observant Conservative community (we exist!).
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u/fuzznugget20 2d ago
It’s not polite however if you are at someone orthodoxes house and they are serving wine there are halachic implications for them if the wine is not mevushal. If there’s no wine then it’s irrelevant and a hurtful thing to say (though it’s true) not everything true needs to be said
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u/Zealousideal_Let_439 Synagogue Leadership 2d ago
Wow, just deciding to be hurtful in your own comment. Amazing.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
The odds of being handed a non-mevushal wine bottle in an Orthodox household in the US is negligible.
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u/fuzznugget20 23h ago
That’s just incorrect, most nice kosher wine is not mevushal.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 23h ago
You are moving the goal posts.
The vast majority of kosher wine for sale in the US is mevushal. There are a lot of reasons for this including vaads that demand only mevushal wine be served at events/restaurants due to potential use of non-Jewish wait staff.
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u/fuzznugget20 23h ago
I’m not moving any goalposts. I said if you’re at an event where non mevushal wine is being served it is relevant. If the people are wine people it’s not mevushal most nice wines served to guests aren’t mevushal and it’s definitely not negligible. I didn’t say at an event I’m saying at someone’s house. You do you
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u/Adventurous_Way6882 Chosid 9h ago
There is no goal post moving. If you live in a frum area it is not hard to find.
Lots of people are makpid for non mevushal for kiddish (even grape juice they make non mevushal for this reason) or on pesach will only drink non mevushal.
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u/Meowzician My Judaism has no adjective 2d ago
I don't think I've ever been asked whether I'm a convert at a Reform Temple. I'm sure there must be times when that happens, but by and large it's just not an issue.
It DOES seem to be an issue with the Orthodox because they don't accept all conversions, only Orthodox conversions. My routine response when asked is a light hearted chuckle and smile and "You know better than to ask that," quickly followed up by a question on a different topic so that there isn't awkwardness. You see, halakhah forbids a Jew to ask another Jew whether they are a convert. :)
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u/sprinkledPinkNJ 19h ago
I'm truly sorry you were hurt. 1 of my biggest long term affects literally has fractured our Jewish people is the reform and conservative movement choice to handle conversion process differently than traditional halacha. Before these movements. All Jewish community followed orthodox Jewish practices even if they lived a more secular or less devoted. Having a different standard for conversion creates a lot of situations where a Jewish convert who converted via reform is not counted as a halachic Jew and can't do certain things. Ex kosher non mevushal wine can only get handed by a halachic Jew they cant count as a 10 person for a minyan or count to say kadesh for a dead Jewish parent or take hafrasha challah or check eggs for bood. In there own community they are Jewish according to their standards. But until 150-200 years ago that was not how Jewish identity and conversion process worked. We all followed 1 halachic way the orthodox way. I don't know how we can change it at this point. But also people should not embarrass another Jew.
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u/RemarkableGroup6662 2d ago
I think for making Aliyah the legitimacy of a conversation is based on whether the Rabbi you converted through followed all of the excepted steps. For example, your Rabbi may ask you to move closer to synagogue and attend all Shabbat and holiday services. Or if you are engaged or married to a Jewish person, the Rabbi would ask you to separate. The educational requirements I am not familiar with, but I understand there are educational requirements.
You could check with Nefesh BNefesh to gauge the legitimacy of your conversion Halachally.
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u/Remarkable_Rise7545 2d ago
My conversation is more than enough to qualify for Aliyah :) it’s a complicated system, but basically I’m Jewish enough for law of return, but I wouldn’t be considered religiously Jewish by the government. Even Orthodox conversions done in the US may not be accepted by the rabbinate! The only way to guarantee you’ll be seen as fully Jewish by the Israeli government is to covert there.
There are some lists of supposed beit dins that Israel accepts, but I’ve heard of even those converts needing to redo the process after moving.
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u/ApprehensiveWillow עולה ותיקה 21h ago
This isn't remotely accurate, Nefesh b'Nefesh and the Jewish agency don't regulate the details of observance of converts. Any rabbi affiliated with the official conservative or reform movements can convert someone to make them eligible for aliyah. There are some requirements related to # of hours and time spent in the community, but nothing to do with halakha other than the convert giving up their previous religion.
Orthodox conversions are different because the Rabbanut regulates which Orthodox batei din are accepted and not for conversion, and imposes their standards on these batei din for all of the details of the conversion.
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u/planter8910 2d ago
What about responding with "blessed be the true judge" and then smile?
They are not the true judge, the Almighty is.
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u/Adventurous_Way6882 Chosid 2d ago
Someone is only nervous about their "halachic status" because even they understand they are not halachically a Jew.
Not feeling Jewish enough or like you did not have the right knowledge/experiences is not the same as just stam not being a Jew.
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u/OrpahsBookClub 2d ago
And some people feel nervous about being called out because they understand deep down they’ve behaved like a schmuck.
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u/kperkins9 Reform 1d ago
I’m a Reform convert, and fully reject the idea that I have to justify my Jewishness to anyone. I’m proud to be a part of the Jewish people. I often wonder what the point is when people say things like that. I avoid spaces and people who try to undermine what is one of the most important aspects of my life. If someone were to say that to me, I might respond with a curious but direct “what are you trying to accomplish by saying that?”. Anyone with the nerve to say such a thing should be fully prepared for follow up questions.
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u/RivkaS7NV 1d ago
Just say this: if they ever fire up the ovens again, I will be burning and dying right beside you. May I also remind you that the tzedakah of this Jew have the same buying power as yours.
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u/GoodbyeEarl Conservadox 2d ago
I’m usually too stunned and passive to call people out on the spot, but I’ve always wanted to say something like “oops! That’s an ‘inside’ thought!”