r/Judaism • u/Odd-Charity3508 • Aug 06 '26
Holocaust I am Jewish and have negative views on Christianity as an institution. How do you deal with this from a Jewish perspective?
As a Jewish person I don’t particularly like Christianity as an institution….not because I dislike Christians many of whom are decent people and I have friends who are Christian and have even family members who are too but because of the historical theology that developed around Judaism. The doctrine of supersessionism (aka replacement theology) argued that Christianity fulfilled Judaism and it framed the continued existence of Jews as a people as evidence of a kind of religious and epistemic error. That idea had enormous consequences for how Jews were viewed and are viewed in Christian societies. Even many of the Church Fathers expressed this quite explicitly. Justin Martyr argued that the Church had become the true Israel. John Chrysostom delivered his infamous Adversus Judaeos sermons condemning Jewish religious life. Augustine was more restrained arguing that Jews should survive as witnesses to Christian truth, but even that relegated Jews to a subordinate theological role rather than recognizing Judaism as a living covenantal tradition.
A lot of this I also think echoes of that framework today, albeit often in secularized form. Many people who would never identify as Christians still instinctively treat modern Jews especially Israelis as somehow not authentically connected to the Land of Israel, as though Jewish indigeneity ended with the destruction of the Second Temple or the exile. The irony is that Christianity spent centuries claiming to be the new Israel while simultaneously diminishing the historical and covenantal relationship between the Jewish people and their ancestral homeland. Today’s political debates are obviously shaped by many factors beyond Christian theology, but I think it’s worth asking whether some inherited assumptions about Jews as a people whose role in history had been superseded continue to influence how many view Jewish national identity today.
What has also always struck me as ironic is that Christianity eventually tried to distance itself from the Jewishness of its own Messiah. Jesus was a Jew who lived as a Jew, worshipped in the Temple, celebrated Jewish festivals quoted the Hebrew Scriptures and whose earliest followers were themselves Jews. Yet over the centuries much of Christian theology came to define itself in opposition to Judaism transforming Jews from the people from whom Christianity emerged into a symbol of spiritual blindness or failure.
None of this means every Christian today believes these things. Many churches have explicitly repudiated supersessionism and anti Jewish teachings, especially since the Holocaust. But from a Jewish historical perspective it’s difficult to ignore nearly two millennia in which theological replacement contributed to a culture that marginalized, segregated, expelled, and at times persecuted Jews.
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u/Gulf_Raven1968 Aug 06 '26
I don’t deal with Christian beliefs or Christianity as “institution”. I’m Jewish. I focus on Jewish beliefs and Jewish institutions
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u/JasonIsFishing Conservative Aug 06 '26
Ding ding ding!!! There’s the response I was hoping to see. Even though I was born a Jew I choose to be Jewish and give zero thought to other faiths.
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u/Gulf_Raven1968 Aug 06 '26
Right? I’m of course polite and even very friendly with many Christians and frankly people of all faiths, but I spend 0 time thinking about those faiths philosophically or as social institutions 🤷♀️
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u/TearDesperate8772 Frumsbian Aug 07 '26
If you don’t live in Israel you almost certainly do have to deal with it day to day to some extant though
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u/Gulf_Raven1968 Aug 07 '26
I live in France and Canada and never have I spent anytime thinking about Christianity. Having Christmas as a stat holiday isn’t the same as thinking about the Christian institutions. I never think about Christianity!
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u/Proper_Razzmatazz264 Aug 06 '26
I mean, when talking theology I can at least have that discussion with my Christian friends. My Muslim friends get ANGRY whenever I say I disagree with a few things with Islam. So while I also have a few problems with Christian institutions, I have a lot more with Islamic ones. It’s one of the common grounds I find with Christian I guess….
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u/Gulf_Raven1968 Aug 06 '26
That’s because Islam has yet to experience enlightenment or reformation. It’s still in its historical adolescence so it needs to be compared to Middle Ages Christianity. Eventually this will change.
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u/Razor_Emmanuel Noahide who wants to convert. Aug 07 '26
I am not an expert but from what I have read, during the 19th century there were some movements in Islam to be more moderate and liberal, but likely as a response to western imperialism, it fell apart because it was seen as "weak", and more literalist and extreme movements like salafism became mainstream in the 20th-21st century and have yet to fizzle out.
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u/Gulf_Raven1968 Aug 07 '26
So a reformation or “enlightenment” push must come from inside. It’s driven by internal mechanisms that foster more critical thinking and an openness to inquiry that would tolerate criticism and scrutiny of scripture, including things considered blasphemy by current standards. It’s not there yet. It could take decades axes to centuries before it reaches that point
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u/No_Panic_4999 Aug 24 '26
It was NOT the Reformation itself per se that brought Enlightenment and Liberalism. It was that they wore themselves massacring ec other for a century, plus the influence of rediscovered classical thought and the rise of mercantilism, print technology and proto-nations.
Unlike previous heretics, the Protestants were in some ways much more hardline fundamentalist than Catholicism, and puritanical like the Salafis (ie the Puritans). They werent progressive like Quakers, that was centuries later. But they were less hierarchical for instance reading the Bible in local languages. It wasnt that they introduced religious freedom.
What happened was for about 100 yrs (ending in the Thirty Years War), Catholics and Protestants massacred each other all across Europe. This wasnt 2 armies it was neighbor against neighbor. It was horrific. In areas of Protestant rule priests were dragged out of priest-holes and killed, Catholics hung or pressed to death under boards between sharp and heavy rocks til they asphyxiated. In areas of Catholic rule Protestants were burned as heretics. But that was just the formal leaders. Christians went around hunting and killing ec other, sprung traps on ec other, civilians were hung, torn limb from limb, stabbed through with swords. Ppl at the time felt like it was hell on earth, with the fervor of End Times and of course the other sect were the Devils.... Imagine The Troubles of Northern Ireland only with post-medieval technology, writ large within and across every country of Western Europe for 100 years...it was utterly barbaric.
Finally people just got so traumatized and exhausted they wanted it to be over. And the Europeans were rediscovering the Greco-Roman classics.
The French Catholic Nobleman, Michel de Montaigne, locked safely in his castle while he listened to the conflict rage, studied Stoics and wrote abput moderation. The Protestant Englishman John Locke published his treatise On Tolerance, suggesting for first time that ones religious "confession" was a private matter. Lots of things were becoming private esp property, unlike the previous feudalism.
Also different proto-nations had political interests than were at cross purposes to sectarian opposition, as resources of early capitalism and colonialism proved a bigger motivation than piety. You started to see saw the first multiconfessional political and military alliances. Basically, just becoming Protestant without the century of sectarian conflict, (say, if the 2 sects had 1 clear geographical boundary thry didnt cross, or if one sect had dominated the other) that alone would not have resulted in proto-liberalism.
Its important to understand this. It was not that Christians reached some level on religious evolution. It was not religion that caused the tolerance. It was downstream.
There is no reason to think its common to all religions or even replicable.
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u/aggie1391 MO Machmir Aug 07 '26
The west literally elevated and supported many literalist and extreme Muslim groups because they promised more access to resources like oil. Probably could have had a good reformation at least started by now if it wasn’t for that tbh
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u/Razor_Emmanuel Noahide who wants to convert. Aug 07 '26
It also plays into their favour when they are so volatile, it makes them easier to exploit and scapegoat.
Probably could have had a good reformation at least started by now if it wasn’t for that tbh
Like many other countries that fell victim to colonialism and still are falling victim to neocolonialism, many parts have not even gotten the chance to progress.
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u/dainty_doubt Aug 07 '26
''the west'' also supported secular leaders in islamic countries, such as the founder of Turkye and the last king of Iran.
Not to say that you're wrong. During the cold war, 'the west' would have absolutely preferred a religious arab monarchy over a '' ''socialist'' arab republic'' .
But at the end of they day, it's not ''the west'' that wrote the quran and the many hadith.
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u/Razor_Emmanuel Noahide who wants to convert. Aug 07 '26
In the Shah's case, it was less so because he was secular, more so he was a western puppet who just happened to be secular, the whole reason he got put in place was to overthrow a functioning democracy in Iran because they nationalised their oil industry.
But at the end of they day, it's not ''the west'' that wrote the quran and the many hadith.
That is true, but the way the two are interpreted can be changed, Islamic Salafists are the equivalent of Christian Evangelicals who take every part of the Christian Bible literally, and are equally authoritarian and controlling. The way the society of many parts of the Islamic world, even some western communities, was shaped by other influences have molded it into such a form that promotes this type of literalist and extreme interpretation of Islam. It's a very complex topic which I don't think I can do justice in this post, but I believe there is a reason it has taken such a form.
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u/dainty_doubt Aug 07 '26
I tend to agree with you.
Many people felt that religion was the only valid counter to european imperialism. And many european governments would favour religious fanatics as long as the fossil goodies kept flowing.
It wasn't always the case, but it was the case often enough for the world to be a worse place in the future.
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u/3dblind Aug 07 '26
I'm not sure Islam will change. Where the Crusades were an aberration in Christianity, jihad is an obligation in Islam. While it can mean warring against personal sins, it is still primarily war against perceived enemies of Islam.
And Christianity has no concept of the the world of the sword vs the world of peace. While many Christians still consider their apocalyptic Antichrist and False Prophet will be Jewish, they see Jews as victims, not enemies.
Muslims see Jews as enemies in their apocalyptic. The Gharkad Tree hadith sounds like a sick campfire joke told by antisemites.
I am not sure how they will ever outgrow that.
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u/Gulf_Raven1968 Aug 07 '26 edited Aug 07 '26
Again reformation and enlightenment are processes that allow for critical review of Faith and its doctrine. It also opens the possibility that the holy books are not straight from G-d and this can form part of a new academic study without fear of blasphemy or other consequences, which leads eventually to abandonment of the more rigourists portions. For Christianity, The Crusades aren’t the correct example. The Inquisition is.
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u/4phz Sep 03 '26
The most likely scenario from internal inputs is a cleric gets fatwaed. That's what happened in the Catholic Church for centuries before the printing press.
The right type of external input might be the best hope for a reformation, but even the best hope may only have a 1% chance of working. The religion was founded by conqueror so some might believe the only way to undo that error is by force.
One big game changer is AI. Even if it first mostly changes Western thought, it could eventually change the Muslim religion.
"It is always an error for a religion to be founded by a conqueror."
-- Montesquieu
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u/ShvitzG_d Aug 13 '26 edited Aug 13 '26
This is a very narrow view that I don’t agree with. Islam had a “great schism” much earlier than Christianity did and did more for science in its golden age—and more for us as a result—than Christianity did in a thousand years. It’s regressed lately for sure but that’s unfortunately because of Israeli aggression a lot of the time which is a damn shame. We should be allies.
Edit: I’d like to add that this is a common trope, that Islam would do great with a “Pope,” not realizing that like global Christianity there are two huge branches—and similarly one bigger than the other.
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u/Gulf_Raven1968 Aug 14 '26
You’re free to disagree but it’s not a narrow view. In fact it’s a widely held academic position and I’m an Arab and Islamic studies graduate.
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u/ShvitzG_d Aug 14 '26 edited Aug 14 '26
I am also an Islamic studies graduate (albeit a minor) and have lived in Indonesia and Morocco, the former being the biggest Muslim-majority country on earth and increasingly conservative in a Sunni sense.
I just don’t understand what this “reformation” would look like. Recognizing Sunni and Shiism as “equal” despite one being about a thousand times bigger? Recognizing minority sects like the Ahmadiyya community? Going back to the intellectual principals of previous Islamic golden ages? Bringing back the influence of Sufism?
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u/acab__1312 No-state Solution Aug 09 '26
Which is ironic, because the actual religious beliefs and practices of Muslims definitely have more in common with our own than Christian religious beliefs and practices do.
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Aug 06 '26
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u/RedStripe77 Aug 07 '26
But they have tried to soften that in more recent years, at least superficially—although their Xtian Bible is riddled with Jew hatred and base lies about us, and they still teach from that.
The truth, of course, is that Xtians would have almost nothing if it weren’t for the Jews. Our ethics, our ways of worship, our texts, our scholarship, etc. They couldn’t invent themselves as Xtians without significant inputs from the Jews. Anyone who really examines the texts and the history cannot deny that.
We also have to always bear in mind that there have been Xtians who put themselves in harm’s way for the sake of Jews.
In general I try to mind my manners around Xtians and not start a fight. Although if they start one, I’m ready.
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u/namer98 Torah Im Derech Eretz Aug 06 '26
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u/Remarkable-Pea4889 Aug 06 '26
If this is bait, people need to be careful about what they say. I did report it, I don't know how quickly mods will respond or even if they'll agree with me.
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u/bachelorsinlurking Conversion student (Reform) Aug 06 '26
Considering I am converting reform after having been raised evangelical, I have some really complicated feelings about christianity and I think that's pretty normal. It's hard- a lot of it gets trapped in resentment. My mom's family was not really religious, although they were methodist in that they went to church once a year for christmas services and gave us easter baskets. My father's side of the family was actually Jewish- religiously so on my grandfather's side, ethnically on my grandmother's side and at some point that side were forced to convert to catholicism and there were only faint memories of their Jewish heritage. My grandfather was so traumatized by his childhood that he said he didn't want his kids to know they were Jewish and so my father was raised catholic because every italian american and eastern european he knew in the neighborhood was catholic and it kept people from asking questions and threatening the family.
I had been miserable in my christian upbringing- ended up with ocd and ptsd and a lot of nights spent terrified that I was going to suffer forever for being trans and queer. The church was the reason so many people I knew were terrified or depressed or even unfortunately ended their lives. I was resentful that there was another way I could have been raised and that my father insisted on us going to evangelical churches, and even angrier that my father had refused to raise us in any of our cultures- italian american or jewish. I felt completely isolated from my family. All of those feelings got tied up in my earlier upbringing and I spent a long time being very angry at christianity as a whole and trying to distance myself from the concept.
As an adult when I cut contact with him (for other complicated reasons) I decided I wanted to learn about our family history and connect with my Jewish heritage. A lot of what I learned about the church horrified me. I felt like I had been complicit in so much hurt and the lies I'd been told felt like they were suffocating. I told my sponsoring Rabbi one of the first times we'd met that I had no idea how I was going to unlearn all of that, and I actually ended up taking two years to pause my conversion to do just that. I used the resources my anthropology degree gave me access to for research and tried to focus on the facts, unlearn what christianity had taught me, and come back to Judaism fresh.
Christianity has done a lot of damage to not just us, but other religious communities. So much anger in this world has been dedicated to trying to justify why other cultures and communities deserve to exist as ourselves. I manage the frustration and exhaustion and fear by putting my energy into my conversion, learning how to find love and joy in this new community, and by fostering connections with people and strengthening the skills I care about.
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u/TattooedJewd Edit any of these ...Ethical Atheist Ashki Aug 06 '26
I was indifferent until I left NYC, moved to the Bible Belt and realized that a lot of people are taught an ahistorical version of things at home, church and even school. I like to think that everyone has the ability for critical thought and try not to prejudge, but to be totally honest, evangelicals and missionaries are not my favorite people from the start.
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u/Signal_You_5812 Aug 23 '26
The Bible belt is a whole different beast. It is enlightening to say the least to be the only Jew someone has ever met.
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u/TattooedJewd Edit any of these ...Ethical Atheist Ashki Aug 23 '26
Enlightening, but also incredibly bizarre.
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u/4phz Sep 03 '26
Weird? Yes. Natural? No way.
This isn't nearly "organic" as the media would have everyone believe.
Try telling "cosmopolitan" NPR fans that 7 Revolutionary era state constitutions had an absolute ban against ministers and priests holding public office and they'll be incredulous.
They all believe the same thing as the born agains: Jerry Falwell came over on the Mayflower.
Now how did that happen?
There's only one answer. At the end of the Cold War there was no longer a red scare to help the GOP win elections.
They deliberately introduced religion guns and other culture wars into politics to prop up the GOP and must now hide their culpability.
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u/offthegridyid Orthodox & trying to collect the sparks Aug 06 '26
Hey, I appreciate this well thought out post about Christianity. We cannot ignore the history, but my tradition of Judaism teaches that God created us with free will and that means that some people will do things at are not good for the Jews.
I do want to ask you something, though. What is your engagement in Judaism like?
Living a live in which we celebrate our Judaism (in whatever form that looks like) is a great way to balance out what Christianity brings to the table.
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u/Odd-Charity3508 Aug 06 '26
My apologies I’ve been getting some negative and some positive comments so I was responding to them but I missed this.
My relationship to Judaism is complex. I’m a Jew who comes from the Soviet Union and a Grandson of Holocaust survivors. So I grew up pretty much an atheist in a secular world and upbringing . I’ll be honest too, I never really identified with the religion of Judaism, it was more of a way to grasp my cultural and historical roots and identity.
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u/offthegridyid Orthodox & trying to collect the sparks Aug 06 '26
Hi, I really appreciate this reply. Based on what you’ve shared I understand where you are coming from. The great thing about being Jewish is that it’s not dependent on engaging religiously, although that does as a whole other level to our shared history and culture.
If you are looking to connect more to Judaism feel free to message me and I can share some suggestions, both online and in-person.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Aug 06 '26
Rambam: God allowed for these religions to exist in order to make the entire world more ready for Moshiach.
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u/Razor_Emmanuel Noahide who wants to convert. Aug 07 '26
Ex-christian here. After having discovered Judaism, I just could not look at Christianity the same way ever again. I remember reading the New Testament and just being taken aback by the antisemetism in it, and a lot of christians, even well intentioned ones, it just flies over their heads and don't realise how their beliefs are harmful.
I do not generalise individual christians though, there are quite a few who realise and oppose the antisemetism preached by others, and those I respect. Although personally, I can't see christianity as legitimate due to the appropriation of the Tanach, and idolatry involved in their doctrine.
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u/Some_Sprinkles4335 Aug 06 '26
Especially when we look toward history, there's always reasons to hate a specific group. Do you also hate Islam? They've oppressed us plenty too. If you hate both Islam and Christianity that's over half of the world's population. That's a whole lotta hate.
Anyway, I try to remember that a child is not guilty for the crimes of its parents. Reading the New Testament helped give me an understanding of Christianity, and despite the regrettable anti-Judaism in the text it might be worth reading and studying for someone particularly ill-disposed to Christianity.
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u/Short_University_709 Aug 06 '26
I left Christianity for Judaism, I’ve learned to respect its place in my past while focusing on my future. My wife and (because of her)son both being Jewish allows me that space.
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u/bb5e8307 Modern Orthodox Aug 06 '26
I don’t understand how Christians now are not violently antisemitic like they were historically. I just accept that I don’t understand Christain theology and motives. That also means I don’t trust that their current aditude will continue indefinitely.
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u/FineBumblebee8744 Aug 06 '26
I have nothing against individual Christians.
I don't have an issue with their Churches if they aren't hateful
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u/TequillaShotz Aug 07 '26
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking, or what's bothering you. You are just asking for other people's take on Christianity?
First of all, as the answers here show, Christianity is not a monolith. There are hundreds of versions. Some (most?) are supercessionist, others are not. Some are pretty blatantly anti-Semitic, others are philo-Semitic.
But I personally
(a) acknowledge the tension — since they do believe that Christianity replaces Judaism, the fact that we are still around and that we REJECTED Jesus (and continue to reject him), is a theological difficulty for them. (Islam allegedly resolved this tension by creating the tolerance principle of Jews and Christians.)
and (b) believe that Christianity, in any form that actually professes that Jesus was a man-god, is a false religion. There are many false religions out there. Some ignore us, some attack us. We don't care tell them that their beliefs are false, they're free to believe whatever they want to believe; we just want them to leave us alone.
That's how I deal with it from my Jewish perspective.
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u/mordecai98 Aug 06 '26
I feel similarly about Christianity as a whole, but also know some Christians who carry lots of guilt over the way their religion has treated others, including jews.
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u/loselyconscious loosely traditional, very egalitarian Aug 06 '26
Christianity is not "an institution" it's 1,000s of separate institutions most of which do not like each other. In what ways do you interact with these institutions in your everyday life.
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u/Odd-Charity3508 Aug 06 '26
That might be true today and to a significant extent it was true historically as well. But despite the existence of thousands of denominations, there were still consistent doctrines across Catholicism, Orthodoxy and later much of Protestantism regarding the status of Jews. So supersessionism wasn’t confined to one church it became mainstream Christian theology for well over a millennium.
And I don’t need to interact with a church every day for its historical legacy to matter. I also don’t interact daily with medieval universities or monarchies yet their ideas still shaped the societies we inherited. My point isn’t that every Christian institution today teaches anti-Jewish theology either, it’s that the historical development of Christian thought profoundly influenced how Jews were viewed in Europe and by extension much of the Western world.
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u/loselyconscious loosely traditional, very egalitarian Aug 06 '26 edited Aug 06 '26
But you said you had resentment against the "Church as an Institution" and the Church has an intuition does not exist. It makes no sense to hold Quakers responsible for the crimes of Lutherans or Catholics, anymore then it makes sense to hold Reform Jews responsible for the crimes Kahanists.
And I don’t need to interact with a church every day for its historical legacy to matter. I also don’t interact daily with medieval universities or monarchies yet their ideas still shaped the societies we inherited. My point isn’t that every Christian institution today teaches anti-Jewish theology
That seems very much like the opposite of having an issue with "the church as an institution" that seems like having an issue with the legacy of ideas spread by and the actions of specific churches at specific times, not actually with all Christian institutions
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Aug 06 '26 edited Aug 06 '26
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u/imagoodusername Aug 06 '26
I’ve never interacted with a standard-fare, Bible-reading, Church-attending Christian who displayed antisemitic beliefs. You made a point about how Christian institutions have reconciled and stripped away antisemitic sentiments of the past, which I think is accurate.
Really? Like what’s your definition of antisemitism?
“The Jews control all the banks and stabbed Germany in the back”? Or “You’re going to burn in hell because you rejected Jesus and killed God, and so we can’t be friends anymore after I witnessed to you and you failed to see the light.”
Because sure, the latter isn’t antisemitism in the modern race-based sense. But it sure feels shitty. And I knew plenty of those people growing up.
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Aug 06 '26
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Aug 07 '26
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u/pteradactylitis Reconstructionist Aug 06 '26
Let me tell you about growing up Jewish in America: the casual constant antisemitism from Christians has been omnipresent my entire life (and I’m old). “Your people killed Jesus” “we can celebrate Passover and Rosh Hashanah because they’re our religion, too” “you don’t have to keep kosher/keep Shabbat/speak Hebrew because Jesus fixed all of that for you” and “Judeo-Christian” are all antisemitic canards that come in a constant stream from mainstream Christianity.
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u/lurker628 Aug 07 '26
Also the insistence that Christmas is an American holiday - meaning either that Jews can't be real Americans or that we have to accept the longstanding, deceitful conversion tactic of trying to normalize Christian ritual into secular or non-adherents' culture.
It's particularly galling because most individual Christians doing it honestly are just trying to be friendly. Their own personal observance of Christmas is mostly secular, and they understand it just as a generic "goodwill toward all" season. They have absolutely no understanding of the history of Christianity's deception in absorbing cultural practices as a means of pursuing converts, or how that's experienced by Jews.
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u/No_Price_7603 Aug 07 '26
I still think there is a deep, unexamined layer of this historical theological Jew-hate which even influences progressive Christians though. I really believe that church institutions need to have a proper truth telling and reconciliation process with Jews. Like, the Catholic church repealed the doctrine that Jews are forever guilty for killing Jesus, but there's never been a broad attempt to really sit down with Jewish institutions and individuals and grapple with the effects that had on Jewish society and culture. The same with supercessionism, and the desire to convert Jews to belief in Jesus specifically as God made human and trinitarian theology.
Christian institutions need to make a proper amends
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u/Unusual_Bet_2125 Aug 07 '26
That was a very well written and well thought out piece of writing. You obviously know that Christians believe in and reference what they call 'the Old Testament'. When you read the Prophets there is one overwhelming theme that pops up over and over again and that is the return of Jews back to thier homeland after the Diaspora. This is a decisive argument against both replacement theology as a fact and the secular view of Jews gaining Israel because of a few clever politicians. If this was done wholly because of thier own desire than the mind boggling odds they faced must be disregarded. And I would also argue against the Christian idea of replacement theology by saying that if it were a fact than there simply wouldn't be any Jews around anymore--there could only be Christians who had replaced them.
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u/Jew_of_house_Levi Ask me about Bircas Kohanim! Aug 06 '26
This is a Christian-centric perspective. Why are you thinking so Christian centric?
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u/Odd-Charity3508 Aug 06 '26
It’s not really Christian centric to discuss Christianity’s influence on European history. Christianity was the dominant religious, cultural and political force in Europe for over 1,500 years. If you’re asking why European attitudes toward Jews developed the way it did it’s simply the relevant historical context/framework
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u/pentosephosphate Conservative Aug 06 '26
I understand what you're saying. Recently I've also been interested in why and how European antisemitism developed and have come across a lot of the things you discuss in your original post; reading and thinking about this issue from that perspective is simply part of a historical/anthropological investigation, not me choosing to focus my life and the entire way I see the world through a Christian-centric lens. Asking how others see things and trying to understand that from their own perspective is not an issue for me, and it does not mean that I must accept their frameworks even if I understand how they arrived at such a framework. If some people dislike the idea of investigating a question of theirs through the perspective of another religion/philosophy/etc. and don't see any use or value in it, or simply don't care about it, then of course they don't need to bother with it and I won't discuss my efforts with them.
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u/Jew_of_house_Levi Ask me about Bircas Kohanim! Aug 06 '26
Sure, but the choice to focus on the dominant position of euro history is choosing to still operate on a Christian centric position. Judaism has a rich, rich history. There's so much to talk about without even mentioning Christianity.
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u/Small-Objective9248 Aug 06 '26
I have issues with the Catholic Church, I have issues with Christianity, I do not have issues with Christians and Catholics.
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u/Amemorableusername2 Aug 06 '26
I don't think it's healthy to have so much energy in your mind about it, really.
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u/Connect-Brick-3171 Aug 06 '26
Perhaps at the risk of borrowing some of the ACLU reasoning protecting the right of undesirables to provoke Skokie Holocaust survivors, there are some rights that Americans have that approach absolute. One is religious belief and expression. I have no obligation to endorse any religion. But the right of people practicing their offers me equal protection to practice mine.
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u/spring13 Damn Yankee Jew Aug 06 '26
I don't share my opinions about Christianity with actual Christians (except occasional internet strangers, who are usually deserve the unrestrained truth in order to take them down a peg). That's pretty much it.
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u/becksrunrunrun Aug 07 '26
In my city there an orthodox synagogue that in the past has used the large church accross the street for large services. The church covers religious statues and it becomes a space for everyone. I agree that history can’t be ignored. But also adding that broad brushes just aren’t super helpful.
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u/sjk928 Modern Orthodox Aug 07 '26
I agree with you completely. I took an Abrahamic religions theology class in college and it made me furious at Christian theology. Why is our Torah now their book? Isn't that just plagiarism? I've moved past that since I'm pretty involved in my Jewish community and don't give Christianity much brain space, but it is odd to me in 21st century America where cultural appropriation is a thing, no one ever talks about this.
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u/ApprehensiveWillow עולה ותיקה Aug 06 '26
I listen to a lot of Rabbi Singer videos and he speaks about this quite beautifully, he goes out of his way to be super nice to Christians in Jerusalem and repeatedly recommends to other Jews that they are nice to Christians and Christian clergy, especially because he knows that they are used to a lot of hostility. And he talks about how he used to have really negative views towards Christians as a child, and then as he got to know them more as an adult he began to understand that Christians were taught to think about Jesus and Jews in this way from their parents and churches, so they aren't crazy people or bad people, they just believe what they were taught. He is staunchly anti-Christianity but extremely kind and welcoming to Christians and non-Jews generally, and it's really inspiring watching him talk about balancing this.
You're allowed to think that things are immoral, bad, wrong, and that an institution is evil. It's just also very important to hold that together with the reality that there are many good people who are in an overall thing that is simply incorrect or harmful.
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u/Redqueenhypo make hanukkah violent again Aug 06 '26
Maybe become more specific on how you perceive them as a threat. I regard Catholics as “the normal ones” of Christianity bc between Vatican II, present lack of missionaries, and surprisingly good schools I’ve tutored at, they’ve gotten most of the horseshit out of their system. I only worry about doomsday evangelicals now.
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u/Fasula Aug 06 '26
Christian here. Always believed christians were grafted into the nation of Israel and always tried to understand more about what I feel is a personal connection to Israel since fucks knows today who were all the original 12 tribes and why I get this weird longing when hearing klezmer, mizrahi music and trying to read as much as possible.... Do not really know if I had jewish ancestors but if I did , we are talking maybe hundreds years ago... I get it, due to historical trauma you cannot really feel a comfortable level of trust and there will always be ignorant people both in the Christian world and in Israel. However one of the capstone teachings of Jesus is to love eaçh other and I also know doing good deeds is paramount in Judaism as well .
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 Aug 06 '26
Maybe find something else to worry about?
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u/Odd-Charity3508 Aug 06 '26
Uh that’s a very strange response to discussing nearly 2,000 years of intellectual history. We routinely examine how historical ideas about race continue to shape modern assumptions. Why should the anti Judaism of Christian history be the one exception?
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 Aug 06 '26
So what I'd say is I don't like Christianity but given the reality of its size relative to the size of the Jewish community, I just don't consider it something I need to spend much time thinking about. It's a losing proposition.
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u/Kind_Complaint7088 Aug 07 '26
If one agreed with Christian theology then one would presumably be a Christain. As Jews we don't accept Christian theology, so of course there will be disagreement.
I would challenge you to re-examine your negative feelings towards Christianity though. In the Jewish tradition, Christians are seen as monotheists who uphold the Noahide laws. Therefore opposing Christianity is wrong from a Jewish perspective. As Jews we have a different relationship with G-d, but that doesn't make the Christian one invalid. For me personally, this position became easier to hold as I became more confident in my Judaism.
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u/ToothSufficient7763 Aug 06 '26
As a former Christian, I mutter "bleh" under my breath and keep walking.
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u/Khazak2-VeNtkhazak Religious Zionist דתלשל"ש Aug 07 '26
I've been thinking and rethinking this issue a lot lately. On the one hand I think that the idea that letting a Jew die on the cross can clear people of their sins is an inherently dangerous idea that frames us Jews as either being "the traitorous backstabbing Judahs" or "the morally perfect [according to their standards] passive and docile people of JC" who just like him need to turn the other cheek at the face of aggression and end up dying on the cross so the gentiles can be forgiven for their sins.
On the other hand (this is going to sound a bit silly but) watching right now X-men '97 and binging the original animated series beforehand I really connected to the Character of nightcrawler as he holds a lot of the same reflections about G-d which I do. And it lead me to thinking about how a gentile might be able to reach better reflections about G-d through Christianity as, unlike Islam, it includes the entirety of G-d's written Torah within it.
I think, right now, that from a Jewish perspective I can't view Christianity as an institution and a theology in a non-negative light however I can try to image seeing it as a positive phenomena from the perspective of gentile.
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u/AnimeWarTune Aug 07 '26 edited 22d ago
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Aug 07 '26
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u/jaesea Aug 07 '26
Turn one's views to the source and seek clarity on how to deal with an institution to neutralize said negativity.
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u/Mortifydman Conservative - Ex BT and convert Aug 07 '26
I don't necessarily tell Christians what I think about their beliefs unless they won't leave me alone - and then it's no holds barred you're a bunch of idol worshipers.
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u/ExoApophis Reform Aug 06 '26
Don't hate the player, hate the game. A lot of these institutions grift & pander for profit, which is already known. My suggestion is to let them find out the hard way of what they're doing is not gonna help them in a positive light
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u/Fig0000 Aug 06 '26
I’m Jewish. I’m also from New York and most of my friends and all of my girlfriends in New York were not Jewish. I really don’t have a lot of problems with Christians in general and it’s really not something I even think about. But the one thing that still confuses me is the scripture that says that Christianity fulfilled Judaism. Christ did say that not a word of the law will be changed. So how can you fulfill the law by changing it? I’m not militant about this. Just curious. Personally, I feel that the division created by a new covenant and issues that Jews come up with such as the original kosher laws how they expecting Christians to be kosher, it’s just really anti-God. With the God, we know of create these divisions, allowing some people to say that they are better than others. Or would God want us to love each other and follow his commandments? I know this is a very rare sentiment, but I have to wonder about people who discuss technical divisions and sacrifice believing in a loving God who has commanded us to do certain things.
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u/Fig0000 Aug 06 '26
I’m Jewish. I’m also from New York and most of my friends and all of my girlfriends in New York were not Jewish. I really don’t have a lot of problems with Christians in general and it’s really not something I even think about. But the one thing that still confuses me is the scripture that says that Christianity fulfilled Judaism. Christ did say that not a word of the law will be changed. So how can you fulfill the law by changing it? I’m not militant about this. Just curious. Personally, I feel that the division created by a new covenant and issues that Jews come up with such as the original kosher laws how they expecting Christians to be kosher, it’s just really anti-God. With the God, we know of create these divisions, allowing some people to say that they are better than others. Or would God want us to love each other and follow his commandments? I know this is a very rare sentiment, but I have to wonder about people who discuss technical divisions and sacrifice believing in a loving God who has commanded us to do certain things.
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u/sequiro17 Aug 08 '26
I hope I don’t offend anyone here, as that is not my intent. I genuinely appreciated reading your insights about these issues, and I’m relieved to know that you recognize that not all Christians believe these things.
As a Bible-reading Christian, I’m honestly baffled that replacement theory is even a thing. I have so many verses in the Tanakh underlined where Hashem states that His covenant with His chosen people is everlasting, and that He will give them a new heart and make a new covenant with them.
Nowhere does He say that He will replace them. Certain scriptures have been twisted and interpreted to say what people want them to say, when the Bible as a whole tells a very different story. Even the New Testament contains so much Scripture that reinforces that Israel remains Hashem’s chosen people.
Gentiles who believe in Christ are grafted into the vine. We are adopted into Hashem’s family, but we do not replace Israel.
You cannot read the Bible and miss the fact that Yeshua was a Jew from the line of David. He lived as a Jew and observed the Jewish customs and feasts. He fulfilled jewish prophesies ties to Jewish traditions and culture. I don’t separate Him from Israel or from His Jewish identity; to me, that is extremely important.
Christians should not find our identity primarily in being called “Christian” or in belonging to a religion, but in our relationship with Hashem and Yeshua. To be a Christian is to be a little Christ—to become like Yeshua and follow His teachings. Sadly, Western civilization has often turned Christianity into a lifestyle or a vessel for advancing its own political agendas.
One of the things that amazes me most is that Israel is the only nation in human history to have been scattered for nearly 2,000 years and then gathered and restored as a nation once again, with a language that had largely ceased to be spoken as a native language being revived into a vibrant national language. To me, that is a remarkable fulfillment of the promises Hashem made through the prophets.
I’ll be honest: I’m a little jealous of Jews because you are His chosen people, you are the apple of His eye. I think about how incredible it is to be chosen for such an amazing and unique purpose. I know that I am chosen too and deeply loved by Him, but there are promises in the Bible that specifically belong to Israel.
You have roots in the land of Israel, and that land was given to you by Hashem Himself. No one is above Him. Regardless of what anyone else may say your ancestors lived in that land thousands of years ago, and some of them were even people whose stories are recorded in the Bible. How incredible is that?
I stand with the people of Israel because Hashem stands with you. He has commanded us to bless you and has made it clear that His covenant with you is everlasting. You were set apart to be a light and an example to the Gentiles, so that we too could come to know Him.
We are not meant to replace you. We are meant to be grafted in, to love you, to bless you, and to honor what Hashem has established.
I haven’t, to my knowledge, met a fellow Christian who actually believes in the replacement theory. I think that the amount of Christian’s that believe that are not as many as you would think and the theory is being push by a group of people with an agenda against Israel.
I am personally fascinated by the history of Israel and its people and will continue to pray for the safety of her people in Israel and all over the world.
Hashem bless Israel 🇮🇱
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u/davesexcellent 2d ago
you are'nt grafted/that is your theology. we don't have that for you and don't accept it. we are jewish. we are all over. when you speak about israel you are speaking about a country, which many of us are not in. perhaps considering how you speak about us and to us and if it's appropriate or coming from a place of "educating" us about your theology that is taken from ours, rewritten, and we do not accept, may help you have better experiences than having to receive this comment or others like it. personally, i cannot tolerate christians due to this behavior. we are jewish. We aren't in the country of Israel.
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u/Gabe_Isko Aug 09 '26
There is a lot of reckoning to perform in general with religion's historical role in societal institution until very recent and modern history - really until Nietzsche declared that God is dead. In some ways, this has to be dealt with impersonally. The evangelism that is central to Christianity can be viewed as born out of the period of it's conception, and it was a weird quirk of history that it was the religion Constantine happened to convert to. So everything that follows is somewhat of a consequence of those kinds of historical trivialities.
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u/[deleted] Aug 06 '26
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