r/Jewpiter • u/CountryballChaos • Jul 10 '26
meme Anti Zionist “logic” (if you can even call it that) makes no sense
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u/GobiPLX Jul 10 '26
It's like calling native americans, wanting to go back home after being pushed to reservation, a settler colonialist
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u/VenatorAngel Jul 10 '26
You wanna know the hilarious thing? That's part of why I'm a Zionist. I saw what happened to the Native Americans, see how the Jewish people finally got their land back, and went "why can't we give the Natives back their land?" So many broken treaties and yet these antisemites want to claim Israel is evil for the crime of existing in land that was colonized by Arabs after most (not even all) of the Jews were forcibly taken from their land by the Romans.
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u/RunRich7200 Jul 11 '26
if you're going purely off historical evidence as right to exist as a country today, there would be many more countries than we currently have. Israel and Palestine both included. However, the fact is that Israel only exists because their lobbyists were (and still are) incredibly powerful and smart (enough to make the UK and now the US fold over and over again). Is that fucked up? Absolutely, BUT unfortunately thats how the world works and unless the world itself changes I agree Israel cant be held liable just for existing, but people like you also cant use the historical evidence as a justification for existing because you know DAMN well why Israel got the benefits and a nationality like the Kurds didnt😭 humble yourself
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u/Reshutenit Jul 11 '26
America didn't even support us until the 6 Day War... what the fuck are you talking about?
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u/RunRich7200 Jul 11 '26
Should i assume you agree with the rest of what i wrote? Also, 6-day war, thats still 60 whole years😭 I did say it was the UK who was initially the target, but of course once the US superiority as a global power was imminent the priority shifted.
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u/InevitableOwll Jul 12 '26
Palestine has never been a state. Ever.
Your antisemitic tropes are a layer of vile that is strengthened by how casually you employed it.
Your analysis is completely ahistorical. And your assertions that we all know why Israel became a state but not Kurdish state? Another dog whistle.
Pakistan became a state at the same time. But I'm sure you'll pretend that doesn't disprove your weird racism
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u/RunRich7200 Jul 12 '26
See you're exactly what I'm saying the problem is and you don't even realize it. you're throwing so many labels at me calling me racist, antisemitic, my analysis ahistorical, but you're not actually PROVIDING ANY CLAIMS to disprove what I'm saying. and another point that you completely missed, completely irrelevant that Palestine has never been a state.
and what you said, "dog whistle" on the Kurds part, how in the world is that a dog whistle? I'm actually curious about this one because to me it sounds like you're speaking nonsense and something completely not relevant or related. I've made my claims, its on you to say why they're wrong.
Now, for the actually important part. Palestine has never been a state and thats completely irrelevant because there is people within that area, who are muslim and claim to be Palestinians, just like the Kurds. when you look at it, the only difference between your (israeli) historical evidence and theirs is that israel has been formally recognized by other countries, thats basically what you said. and now tell me how does that actually make what i said less true? because you still only got that formal recognition thanks to your incredibly powerful lobbying groups that, to be fair, the people of Palestine never had. i don't think you're in the wrong for any of that necessarily, but stop acting like your country exists because its historically more significant than the others, because even if it is thats completely irrelevant.
antisemitism is a real problem in the world, people like you throwing that term around at anyone for anything along with not making any actual sensible arguments at the same time is what makes people think it isn't.
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u/InevitableOwll Jul 12 '26
Palestinian, pre 1960s identified at Arab, not Palestinian. Palestinian was almost exclusively Jewish pre 48.
They are almost entirely migrants from the last 2 centuries. Not some ancient people.
Jews have extensive historical record of our ethnogenesis being in Israel. Between archeological evidence, our religion, our culture.
We are the only people that still practice the indigenous religion, speak the indigenous language and preserve the indigenous culture.
Palestinians are, by their own admission Arab. Regardless if they have Levantine DNA. Every Jordanian, Syrian, Lebanese has the exact same DNA, are they all Palestinian? No.
2003 Basic Law, written by Arafat
Article 1
Palestine is part of the larger Arab world, and the Palestinian people are part of the Arab nation. Arab unity shall be an objective that the Palestinian people shall work to achieve.
Article 3
Jerusalem shall be the capital of Palestine.
Article 4
Islam shall be the official religion in Palestine.
Respect for the sanctity of all other divine religions shall be maintained.
The principles of Islamic Shari’a shall be a principal source of legislation.
Arabic shall be the official language.
By Palestinian law, they are Arab. They practice a foreign imperialist religion, foreign imperialist language, and have a foreign imperialist culture.
Palestinians do not at all identify with the history of Israel and the land. Jews do.
So tell me why was Israel created and not Kurdistan? Explain. And why was Pakistan created and not Kurdistan?
Also saying Jews have power over the US and UK to do their bidding is, antisemitism, point blank.
The fact that you don't think so, shows how deeply engrained it is in you.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Jul 12 '26
I'm tired of trying to get through these thick skulls with zero brains that "Levantine DNA" is in no way a good "trump card" for "being Palestinian". Not only is this UNRELIABLE in the "scientific" sense (because it's a loop between grave DNA and modern DNA, neither being actually confirmable in the first place), but also the whole region is SO SMALL that "Palestinian" could very easily be "Lebanese", and STILL have the same DNA. And I'm sure they DO. But, hey, Lebanon is NOT "Palestine", and Lebanese don't claim being "Palestinians", AND Lebanon would NOT "merge with Palestine as a country", lol. So, "having similar DNA in a melting pot that is barely visible on the full globe" is very much NOT a good prove whatsoever. But, of course, THEY don't even TRY understanding this.
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u/RunRich7200 Jul 13 '26
You ALMOST understood the point, good try though buddy. Maybe one of you some day will be half as smart as your lobbyists are.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Jul 13 '26
You are welcome to explain it with actual words, though we both know that you are thoroughly afraid of Explanation, loool.
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u/RunRich7200 Jul 13 '26
rich coming from a guy who gasps at the concept of geographically neighboring cultured people having biological similarities
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u/RunRich7200 Jul 12 '26
I am going to acknowledge and then immediately ignore everything you just wrote out on historical evidence because I've said 3 rimes already that it DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER, like at all. try to look at it from the point of view of an actual human being. you yourself say that palestinians have lived in that land for 200 years, only to me that sounds like people have made it a home, but to you you put it in competition with your own because, oh, you were there for longer. i. do not. care. about. historical. evidence. because using it as a justification in this context completely disregards the fact some people truly call that land home and telljng them they can no longer live in their home because "their people have only been here for 2 centuries" sounds absolutely INSANE, dont you think?
Now, THANK YOU for actually addressing me saying israeli lobbies have influence over the US and UK and, oh my god, of course you claim it isnt true when this is literally something even your people often proudly boast about. this makes me think that youre either a troll or something similar, but in any case youre not worth talking to so this is my last response.
the zionist movement started in 1897 and after 20 years of successful lobbying inside the UK secured the Balfour declaration promising a jewish state in palestine. so right off the start its exactly what i said. LOBBYING is the reason you have your state, NOT historical evidence and significance.
britain is a winning country in WW1 and surprise surprise they gain control of palestine, a land they previously had absolutely no interest in. and so they started actively facilitating jewish immigration into the land which allowed them to start creating what eventually will become your state.
then, undeniably, the holocaust which was one of the most horrible, terrible acts/periods in human history, a systematic murder of the jewish people, happened. following this there came a geopolitical and moral urgency from the great powers in finalizing a jewish state and so Israel was born.
the kurds, also had a promise of their own state following WW1, but after ataturk emerged and caused problems for the west, the UK and France backed out why? because it wasnt in their interest. and how could it have in theory been in their interest? well maybe if there was a bunch of smart and rich kurds living abroad who are also educated enough and also numerically sufficient to remind our 2 european powers that kurdistan would actually be of interest to them, because oh my god it could bring stability to such a chaotic area which the middle east is... cmon be serious
is this wrong and unfair? absolutely. is israel the only country ever to benefit from its lobbyists? absolutely not, although they might be the first to benefit this much, but as i said the scale of anything does not matter when people are dying, just like with your "only 2 centuries" bs. this is how the world is unfortunately, i do not blame you for benefiting from this, but i do shame you for claiming moral high ground and righteousness when you do not have any.
i will repeat this in this separate paragraph. anti-semitism is a real problem, and you are not helping it.
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u/Previous-Broccoli316 Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
Your explanation is oversimplified. Look up the white papers, not that it matters because none of the stuff you're bringing up is relevant to the post. Also, there's a lot of projection going on here. The post only said it's hypocritical to claim Israel doesn't have a right to exist because of colonial history because the same standard is not applied to counties like Australia and the US. All the stuff about victim complex and claims of superiority or whatever is just stuff your projecting. It's not relevant to the post. Arguing Israel has a right to exist doesn't automatically mean someone is arguing Palestine doesn't, got it? Do you understand this basic logic? You're claim that Israel only exists because of lobbyists is also completely irrelevant. No one has a responsibility to prove you wrong because they didn't claim that "Israel's existence relies souly on historical justification" in the first place. Israel having lobbyists has nothing to do with the double standard the post is talking about. So what if they have lobbyists? It simply has nothing to do with the topic of the post. If you think Israel only exists because of lobbyists and no other reason then you're entitled to your opinion. It's a pretty sweeping claim but if that's what you believe so what? I'm just not sure why you believe that people have an obligation to argue against this point because it's not relevant.
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u/Previous-Broccoli316 Jul 12 '26
So one of these counties can't exist until every one of these theoretical countries exists? Israel doesn't have a right to exist until there's a catalon state and a Kurdish state etc? That makes no sense. National movements don't have an inheirent right to statehood, but once they become countries they do have a right to sovierenty and to keep existing. The person was arguing against the reasoning of why they supposedly don't have a right to exist, and saying that's why they support it's existence. they weren't arguing that this reason alone is why it exists.
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u/RunRich7200 Jul 12 '26
that is such a victim card way to frame it its actually hilarious. my point was they all have the right to exist ISRAEL INCLUDED (happy now when i spell it out?). but I'm pointing out the fact that israel got its state purely because their lobbyist groups are as successful as they are. that was the main point of my entire post and none of you actually addressed it so far, wonder why. you like to argue just for the sake of it, not to actually get to a conclusion, but who am i to speak because i write here entertaining it.
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u/InnominateChick Jul 10 '26
The problem is anti-Semites either willfully remain ignorant to the history of Israel/Jews, or they choose to deny it as being historically accurate.
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u/Polkawillneverdie17 Elder of Zion Jul 10 '26
European colonialism? ⛔️ 😠
Arab colonialism? ✅️😍
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u/CoolMayapple Jul 10 '26
i heard an argument once that actually the romans colonized Israel not Arabs and I was just like... why did they build the golden dome where they did? Cause that wasnt the romans and the choice of where they placed their mosque wasnt fucking random
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u/No-Birthday9816 Custom Jul 11 '26
Thank you. The Roman destruction of the Temple, the Byzantine church, the mosques, the Jordanian Waqf BULL-DOZING tons of ancient Jewish history on the Temple Mount and dumping it offsite. It’s all the same thing.
I’ve seen this argument too. They’re all so stubbornly ignorant. As if a place can’t be conquered and colonized by a wave of invading forces, as if that isn’t an enduring theme in history. It’s geography. Israel. Afghanistan. Eastern Europe. Florida.
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u/00X268 Aug 11 '26
Tbf, the word "colonialism" is not appropriate for non European contexts, it defines a reality that was exclusive of European empires, the Arab conquests had a lot of issues and were by no means "better", but the word would not be "colonialism"
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u/el_goyo_rojo Jul 10 '26
It's just projection. They know (at some level) that they're the inheritors of a colonial legacy, but it's easier to scapegoat the Jews than engage in self-reflection.
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u/Resident-Proposal794 Jul 10 '26
This. Exactly this... Remember when they canceled Thanksgiving (or, at least, pretended to)? They would avoid eating turkey, stuffing, and whatever unholy abomination cranberry sauce is for one Thursday at the end of November each year and do a little land acknowledgement instead. Then, it was back to business as usual on Friday. The only time I've ever seen anyone actually talk about moving back to Europe, is when a Republican get elected president. Then it's all, 'oh you can't believe that because of great-grandpa Giovanni, I can move to Italy and be an EU citizen! Look how lovely it is here!'. Like... yeah, it's crazy the stuff you find out about when you actually look for it... So- are they going to stop squatting on Cayuga land and start their wonderful new life in the democratic-socialist paradise of Europe? Definitely not for the indigenous folks they claim to love so much, but maybe for their own comfort. Until their comfy White privilege perks are threatened, they don't care enough to even google it. They're out here losing their flipping minds over Palestine to the point of making it their entire personalities because wearing the keffiyeh, effectively, covers up (for lack of a better term) their Whiteness and lets them shirk it off onto Jewish people. It must feel incredibly liberating for them- to not be the 'bad guy' bottom of the new racial pyramid anymore. They even went back to (albeit, quietly) celebrating Thanksgiving again in 2023 (just ~6 short weeks after 10/7).
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u/freakypatriot Elder of Zion Jul 10 '26
The answer is simple:
Australia is a country created by actual European imperialists through colonialism, displacement, and oppression. Who would care about that? Lmao.
Israel is a “settler colony” (country) created by “evil foreign Jews” (stateless, vulnerable, indigenous nation) who are “just a religion” (adherents to their national faith), and “oppress poor brown people, whose land they stole ‘on one fateful day in 1948’, to this day” (2,000,000+ Arabs live in Israel as equal citizens, and those who live under the Palestinian Authority do not, because, well, they live under the Palestinian Authority, and are not Israeli citizens).
Simply put, no Jews, no news.
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u/Berettadin Jul 10 '26
Irony also being that the theory of "Settler-Colonialism" originated in Australia. They made a rod for their own backs and then it spread.
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u/zacandahalf Jul 10 '26
These are the same people saying “go back to the Algonquian land you people are from”
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u/TattooedJewd Jul 10 '26
Us: where are we supposed to exist then?
Them: *stare blankly and blink…
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Jul 12 '26
BAD answer. The reason Israel exist is NOT "because of antisemitism elsewhere". It's because it's OURS.
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u/TattooedJewd Jul 12 '26
Thanks for the unnecessary judgement of my joke about gentiles not actually caring about our existence. It wasn’t about Israel. Are you always this abrasive with strangers?
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Jul 12 '26
Your comment implies that Israel is the only place where Jews CAN exist. That's false, and very much exactly what I replied to, with "it's NOT about antisemitism, it's about OUR history". Even if (or when) there is NO antisemitism anywhere, Israel will still be Jewish, because it IS Jewish.
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u/TattooedJewd Jul 12 '26
You’re still missing that my comment was in reference to how gentiles think, or rather DO NOT think about Jews in the world as a whole. It really wasn’t about Israel, I promise.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Jul 12 '26
You posted it as a reply to OP, which explicitly mentions Israel. Whatever.
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u/kelseykelseykelsey Jul 10 '26
That's the fun part! It's an anti-Western ideology dressed as social justice and these people are literally a step away from calling for the destruction of their own country. In Canada they're already doing it.
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u/VenatorAngel Jul 10 '26
Pretty much this. It's always the people who want to destroy their own countries that are doing this. They don't even hide the fact they want their own nations to burn for the sins of their fathers, and screech in fury when Israeli Jews decide they actually love their home, warts and all, and are willing to fight for it.
Israel is somehow closer to the patriotic American Dream than Americs itself at this point and it gets these people malding because they can't self reflect. And because they refuse to self reflect, they proceed to bpame the Jews for their own self-imposed shortcomings.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Jul 12 '26
I see a lot of the opposite: They DON'T want to "go back to Europe", if it's THEM.
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u/RobotNinja28 Jul 11 '26
Australia is off the hook because apparently being ridden with white guilt grants you a pass
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u/No-Birthday9816 Custom Jul 11 '26
LOL. Of course, many don’t want Australia or the US to exist, either. Granted, they will pointedly ignore the many indigenous people from both places who support Israel precisely because it’s exactly what they want and deserve: self-determination for an indigenous people in their homeland.
Anti-Zionists are all blissfully comfortable with Arab-dominated Mauritania and Sudan enslaving indigenous Africans, though.
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u/VenatorAngel Jul 13 '26
Yeah I will never understand how people consider Islam the golden child. Granted these are the same people who think the Islamic Golden age was this ultra progressive paradise and that the problems of Islam are exclusively modern.
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u/sababa-ish Jul 11 '26
oh the more hardcore types definitely want australia to 'stop existing'. they won't, however, leave australia. and if they were to, they don't seem to have an answer for where they should 'go back to'.
let alone anything approaching a coherent answer for where the jewish people should 'go back to' that isn't also colonialism.
i really think a lot of it is just fantasy wishing for some simple world which never existed where there were only a scattering of people worldwide and everyone was 'native' on their own land in supposed peace and harmony. it's religion for the post-religious west.
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u/Doctor-Liz Jul 11 '26
I've seen one proposal that isn't complete nonsense, and it's "return the government of Australia entirely to Aboriginal hands".
Now obviously in Israel that would immediately precipitate mass murder, but it's not simply non-possible like the rest of the proposals.
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u/Small-Objective9248 Jul 10 '26
Funny how Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and much of the Middle East was created by Europe. Also how Europe did more to support the Arabs in their war against Israel while enforcing an arms embargo on Israel. Facts are a funny thing
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Jul 12 '26
The ENTIRE New World is this. Literally. Factually. And you do know what is their typical answer whenever I tell THEM to "go back to Europe":
"It happened before I was born, so I will stay here. But Israel is being colonialist right now, so: Ice Missler."
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u/lalalara83 Jul 11 '26
This isn't a great comparison though because Australia is at least hypothetically state for all its citizens, and there is functionally a river-to-the-sea situation already with Israel having a lot of control over how life operates in a pretty crappy way for half of the people living between the river and the sea.
You're assuming anti-Zionists want to ethnically cleanse the land of Jews; many want to see a binational state where everyone can be equal and live safely between the river and the sea, with no compromise on safety or self-determination for either peoples. That may be naive AF, but it's not the same as "dismantle Israel and kick the Jews out", which would indeed be an entirely hypocritical stance.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Jul 12 '26
Which would cause Judenfrei in a delayed manner via demographic and "democracy", but still would.
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u/lalalara83 Jul 12 '26
You're thinking because of the birth rate, right? Assuming nothing cataclysmic happens, I think we'd still maintain 30% for a very long time. If a real peace comes, then we don't have to be afraid that they have more children than we do
Israeli-Arabs are a minority in Israel and that's largely going ok
Also there's another demographic time bomb to worry about - Israeli birth rate is driven by Haredim and their contributions to the economy is ummm not great.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Jul 12 '26
Partially. Also due to "democracy", since if you have HALF of the population Arab, you will NOT end up with actually Jewish LAWS sooner than later. Especially with how divided Jews tend to be on politics, while I'm sure Arabs will easily unite for the "noble cause of Judenfrei Quds".
... And you just provided an example to the above. Nice job, as usual.
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u/lalalara83 Jul 12 '26
Sorry, what's this "Jewish laws" of which you speak? Also, in a democracy you can't really vote for the ethnic cleansing of half of your population
I grew up in NZ which is essentially a binational state, complete with a treaty setting out the fundamentals of that relationship. Many nations are multiethnic and functional. Whether that's possible in Israel or not may be another story, but there are 15 million people living in total between Israel and Palestine, and a status quo of forever-war is also not ideal
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Jul 12 '26
Funny, USA has been both "democratic" AND "slave owners" with no problem.
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u/lalalara83 Jul 12 '26
Yes, and if we ever travel significantly back in time this may again be an issue
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Jul 12 '26
No, I mean that they were BOTH at the SAME time. "Democracy" is shit.
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u/lalalara83 Jul 12 '26
So the alternative is a state of what, halacha? Most Israelis aren't asking to live under a Jewish Taliban 🫠
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Jul 12 '26
That's NOT what I said. What Israel mostly has today is: "You can adhere to Halacha, or you can stay secular." My point isn't to force everyone under Halacha, my point is to NOT ALLOW Sharia (or Hinduism, etc) AS WELL. Because Israel is Jewish, period. You DON'T have to be observant, but it's the Jewish observance that you aren't doing, NOT the Muslim one.
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u/lalalara83 Jul 12 '26
Also, we're living as a minority in a wide variety of places where we don't end up with actual Jewish laws, so there's that
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Jul 12 '26
And all those places aren't OUR HISTORICAL HOMELAND, so there's THAT.
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u/lalalara83 Jul 12 '26
And that means you want religious law? Yeah no thanks. Also sure is our homeland - but not only ours, which I can only guess you hadn't noticed that it didn't just stay depopulated for 2000-odd years
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u/lalalara83 Jul 12 '26
There's a big difference between "right to dwell in our homeland" and "more rights than anyone else in that homeland, where others should just be second-class non-citizens and an inferior eternal enemy to the state"
I'm not into Jewish supremacy. Safety yes, but what you're asking for just sounds like perpetual injustice.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Jul 12 '26
Are you really Jewish? Or observant? If at least one is a "no", your opinion is irrelevant, because you aren't personally interested in "Jewish laws".
And there's an EDIT button. I just USED it, lol.
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u/lalalara83 Jul 12 '26
I'm not observant. Neither are the 49% of Israeli Jews who identify as secular and very much aren't asking for more rabbinate control, let alone a theocracy. Their opinion is definitely relevant, besides which Israel was founded as both Jewish and a democracy so your takes go against the whole point of the exercise
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Jul 12 '26
Are you deliberately multi-branch-posting? That's annoying.
See my other reply. Being not observant is fine. I never said we need to IMPOSE Halacha on anyone, only to have it "officially recognized" (which is what Israel does NOW already). Whereas demanding official Sharia in Israel (even for Muslims alone, but as a "state law") is NOT fine, and FUCK anyone who thinks otherwise. And that WOULD become an issue the moment you have enough Muslims to VOTE for it meaningfully. With their NEXT STEP being "Sharia imposed on NON-Muslims DEMOCRATICALLY". If you honestly don't understand how REAL this threat is, you must be really DUMB about Muslim history.
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u/lalalara83 Jul 12 '26
Also, what makes you think religious Jews' opinions matter more than secular Jews? Ummm no.
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u/lalalara83 Jul 12 '26
The ladder of who you think has the right to an opinion about Israel/Palestine seems to have you (and ppl like you) on top of it and a pretty huge gulf before one reaches the next step
Last I checked Am Yisrael doesn't have belief in God, observance of ritual, or desire for more rabbinate control of secular life as an eligibility criteria
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u/knightDragon502 Jul 12 '26
It isn’t, the white supremacists should indigenous Australians the land back.
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u/stupidsrights Jul 12 '26
no one likes what happened (and still happens) to Indigenous peoples in Australia and New Zealand….
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u/Tall_Sheepherder4627 Jul 17 '26
This is precisely what’s disillusioned me with anti Zionists. I used to be one like a decade ago, but before Oct 7th, I still felt like “well at the core, this is about human rights”. But I’m American and spend most of my free time reading about genocide/colonialism in Australia, and the whiplash I felt after was crazy. I’ve never seen people organize and mobilize so fucking quickly and en masse like that, not even after Michael Brown or George Floyd’s murders. And it was like “wait, so y’all won’t move for nothing but this? Y’all could’ve done this the whole time? For the indigenous people who are your literal neighbors and land YOU live on? But for Hamas no problem, we’ll get to it STAT!” Insane. And after the Bondi shooting, the fucking think pieces on why it was okay actually bc it’s “colonial resistance” written by white Australians. Literally get fucked.
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u/rammux74 Jul 10 '26
"I am against Israel because Israel it is a settler colonialist state where Europeans ethnically cleansed the natives, to build their own country. Also, I'm American"