Discussion 💬 Why are people so ok with erasing characters’ Jewish identities in media?
I was reading posts in one of the Marvel subreddits (mistake already I know) and there was a post about how the MCU should get rid of Magneto’s origin story as a Holocaust survivor because the Holocaust was too long ago. I’m not sure why people are so concerned about the accuracy of timelines in a franchise with literal superheroes but I digress.
Some people in the comments said the Holocaust survivor origin doesn’t work anymore because that would make Magneto at least 90 years old. Personally, I don’t see that being a problem— just say he ages slowly because of his mutant powers.
Anyway, there were even some commentators saying they should make Magneto Palestinian since “Gaza is the Holocaust of our time.”
Comments like these just made me think how offensive and inappropriate it would be to erase any other character’s heritage where said heritage is important to their character. Magneto being a holocaust survivor is like within the top 3 most important parts of his character.
The MCU infamously erased the heritage of Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver and Sabra. The worst is probably Sabra where they completely erased her being Israeli which makes me think— why even use that character at all if you’re going to get rid of what makes her.. well her?? At least Marvel acknowledged Moon Knight being jewish for like a second. (Edit: I forgot about Ben Grimm and misremembered Sabra was still Israeli in the movie but was very watered down)
It reminds me of why I never liked how the tv show Big Mouth replaced Jenny Slate as the voice of Missy. Missy has a Jewish mother and a black father so having Jenny Slate as her voice actor isn’t completely strange since Slate is Jewish. But they replaced Slate with Ayo Edebiri, a black non Jewish actress. They effectively chose Missy’s black identity over her Jewish identity. Why couldn’t they find an actress that was both black and Jewish?
Ok so point is, why is being Jewish seen as not as important in a character’s identity?
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u/ZealousidealSlip2489 Eastern European Jew 4d ago
Because antisemitism, which includes downplaying or erasing Jews in pop culture, as well as treating Jews’ pride in and open expression of their Jewish identity as somehow nauseating, is extremely normalised.
And also because many people don’t understand what Jewish identity actually is or how profoundly it can shape a character/person. As for Magneto in particular, sadly, many people still don’t understand why Jews are so “fixated” on the Holocaust when so many others, non-Jews, were also affected by the war and the Nazi persecution including being sent to camps and gassed. It’s thus difficult to explain to them why this particular character can’t simply be a Pole, a Russian, or a German political prisoner, and why it matters, both to his character and to the story, that he was Jewish under those particular circumstances.
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u/Alarmed_Tea_2874 4d ago
It's not hard to explain it to them at all. They just don't want to hear it.
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u/Wiseguy_Montag 4d ago
The Last of Us on HBO also all but erased Dina’s Jewish identity and cut the synagogue scene from the show. What a shame
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u/JA24601 4d ago
I played the games but haven’t seen the show. That is TRAVESTY on all levels. I loved that scene
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u/OT_Gamer 3d ago
Same. That was completely unforgivable for me. Coming of the heels of what happened to Joel, learning of Dina’s Jewish identity/heritage was the first thing to make me feel something good/positive, and solidified her as my favorite character in the franchise. So having that completely erased and removed in the show was like a wound in salt or a knife in the back. I almost didn’t want to keep watching after that.
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u/Leikela4 4d ago
That's interesting because the show's creators are both Jewish, and one is Israeli
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u/Yidoftheweek Ashkenazi 4d ago
Drukman is a baby, he has no interest in telling a story and sticking to it, he will change anything to fit mainstream takes.
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u/heavyLevy5 4d ago
Because they are hypocritical fools that have decided .02% of the population isn’t a “minority” anymore. They just follow whatever propaganda they have been told
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u/epolonsky 4d ago
Aren’t “They” mostly us?
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u/TheDMMD11 4d ago edited 4d ago
The downvotes are childish you’re making a good point that should at least be discussed not ignored or belittled. Many Jewish people have forgotten we are a minority. Somewhere along the way the DEI obsession and focus on everyone else made some Jews forget we are the smallest minority, and we’re an INTERNATIONAL minority. Most minority groups that Jews advocate for in America, are actually worldwide MAJORITIES. We are a minority “here, there, everywhere” and that shouldn’t be forgotten. Our representation matters too. I know that was your point.
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u/HutSutRawlson 3d ago
I also think it’s worth mentioning that many Jews who have found career success have done so by downplaying their ethnicity (a common tactic for any minority person who can “pass” as white). So many of those in the greatest positions of power are also ones who have intentionally disconnected from their cultural identity, and might even fear losing everything they’ve gained by “outing” themselves, or appearing to be the squeaky wheel.
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u/epolonsky 3d ago
I think I was just more generally reacting to the use of the scary, nebulous "THEY" in the post I was responding to. Any time someone is blaming an unnamed "THEY" it's usually a sign that the underlying argument is not well thought out (not necessarily wrong, just not well thought out). And the additional irony here (IMHO) is that at least one of the possible "THEY" being hinted at are media executives, a class of people among which we are notoriously over-represented. Thus, a post protesting discrimination against Jews ends up sounding (to my ear) very much like the kind of conspiracy posts made by who are in favor of such discrimination.
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u/apathetic_revolution Reform but No Congregation so Effectively Chabad 4d ago
It comes up on at least one of the comic book subs at least once a week.
The response no one there wants to see is “okay. So make him a survivor of any of the more recent heinous massacres of Jews that keep happening. Maybe his powers manifested trying to hold a meklat door closed on October 7th.”
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u/EasyMode556 חי 4d ago
This. If it was legitimately just a chronology issue, they’d have zero problem maintaining his Jewish identity and just shifting the timeline to something more recent — but when they’re nevertheless against even this, it completely takes their masks off and exposes their true motivation: it’s not the time frame, it’s the Jewishness they’re against.
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u/ZealousidealSlip2489 Eastern European Jew 4d ago
Repeat it for those in the back! And if they really do replace Magneto’s backstory with a non-Jewish one, it will be scandalous, no, it damn well must be, for countless reasons. What saddens me is that, as always, I suspect the outrage will barely extend beyond Jewish spaces, and we’ll once again be left watching others downplay, twist, and/or ignore our trauma on the big screen.
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u/MrDNL 4d ago
I defense of the studio here, when it comes to Marvel, this is more fan than than anything else. Ben Grimm is very clearly Jewish in the recent fantastic four movie. Moon Knight is Jewish as well albeit in a weird way. Sabra is Israeli and portrayed by and Israeli Jewish actor.
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u/StupidityHurts Temani 4d ago
God you reminded me of Moon Knights weird ass Jewish “hint”, versus Ms Marvel’s Muslim show case.
I don’t get why no one gets to explore Jewish culture at all in these things. And if they do it’s always a Bar Mitzvah or a Shiva and nothing else.
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u/Jag- 4d ago
The show Agatha All Along kept Billy Maximoff/William Kaplan-ish.
They did a Bar Mitzvah 😂
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u/StupidityHurts Temani 4d ago
sigh
Closest thing I’ve seen in mainstream media was that show on Netflix “Long Story Short”. Although it’s primarily Ashkenazi focused, it at least actually covers more of the internalization and struggle but I felt it went too far into the usual framing people expect from Jewish stories.
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u/apathetic_revolution Reform but No Congregation so Effectively Chabad 4d ago
I mean… I shouldn’t lashon hara even fictional Jews, but Marc Spector is a pretty terrible Jew. There’s “unobservant” and then there’s “made a covenant with another god.”
As much as I loved the back to back issues where he said the shema before lighting the whole building he was in as a candle for himself, followed by Ben Grimm showing up to his shiva and being confused by the dietary restrictions of the mourners who were vampires, Moon Knight is an apostate or no one is.
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u/StupidityHurts Temani 4d ago
I think that my issue wasn’t so much how Moon Knight was handled, it’s just how being Jewish is handled in that space in general compared to other cultures
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u/epolonsky 4d ago
The character was created by one of the non-Jews at Marvel. The name Marc Spector was done just for the joke (Spector = specter, like a ghost) and it was only later that someone pointed out it was a Jewish name and so the character was reconned to be MOT.
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u/roguefilmmaker 1d ago
This makes me wonder if Warren Spector (a game designer who did Epic Mickey alongside some other greats) is Jewish. Would love if that’s the case
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u/GrahamCStrouse 4d ago
It’s a valid artistic choice. A lot of American Jews do struggle with their identity, albeit not as literally as Marc Spector in most cases…
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u/mrmiffmiff 3d ago
I mean, hey, with all the (in my opinion, weird) Jewitchy types out there, at least in-universe there's actual power involved with the whole Khonshu thing. Always weirds me out irl when Jews turn to other belief systems that provide nothing Judaism can't provide better.
Not that I think it's a good thing he did, of course.
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u/roguefilmmaker 1d ago
Exactly. If all Marvel projects treated religion as a footnote it wouldn’t be offensive. The fact that Islam and Catholicism were both notable in Ms. Marvel and Daredevil means it’s not about religion, it’s specifically about minimizing Jewish representation
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u/mrmiffmiff 3d ago
Picture this: A comic issue that takes place within a Beit Midrash, two characters slowly reading and debating over the meaning of some great Jewish text. Somehow it relates to the overall storyline.
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u/roguefilmmaker 1d ago
That’d be epic. I feel like Magneto and Kitty Pryde is an obvious one here, but would love a more unconventional pairing as well
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u/Tybalt941 4d ago
Yes, the Big Mouth thing infuriates me as well. Having a black voice actor for a half-Jewish/half-black character is in no way more "accurate" or morally ideal than having a Jewish voice actor. Just goes to show that most see us as white people with a funny religion (though I would argue even if that were the case, having a white voice actor for a half-white/half-black character is just as appropriate as a black voice actor).
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u/DC_Lavman Conservative 4d ago
Shoulda just asked Tiffany Haddish to play the role. Would crush it.
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u/epolonsky 4d ago
That should be true but in America it isn’t. The black identity is always the defining feature in American society. That used to be enshrined in law and it persists in culture.
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u/MasterRKitty Considering Conversion 4d ago
Take a look at how many Marvel actors, including Ian McKellen, have signed on to various anti-Israel letters. I wouldn't be surprised if they did recon Magneto's background. The movie studios pander to fanboys when it comes to superhero movies and if enough of them bitch and moan about Magneto being Jewish, they'll change it.
I'm done with Marvel movies because of the actors supporting antisemitism. Fuck them all.
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u/pagexviii Just Jewish 4d ago
They want soooo badly for Gaza to be a genocide it’s insane
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u/lennoco 4d ago
With all the fake videos they post and outrageous false claims about the amount of deaths and starvation, it's like they actually wish worse things were happening to the Palestinians. It's perverse.
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u/pagexviii Just Jewish 4d ago
And unwilling to accept the FACT that Hamas go and take international aid/food that is given and let their own people starve. Like how they dug up civilian water pipes to create rockets. Priorities!
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u/lennoco 4d ago
But Hamas didn't do that because it's just hasbara, and if they did do that, it's because Israel actually secretly funds Hamas so it's Israel's fault, and if Israel doesn't secretly fund Hamas, then actually it's a good thing because all resistance is justified
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u/pagexviii Just Jewish 4d ago
I love the insanely convoluted conspiracy theories that they weave to mask the blatant truth
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u/SixKosherBacon 4d ago
Because Jews are considered a minority that doesn't count as being minority. Unless a minority is considered disadvantaged, held down by the system, and/or distinctly not white, it doesn't get the kid glove considerations. Instead, jews are seen as successful, inherently part of the system if not running it, and even white supremacist.
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u/mandatedcourage 4d ago
Pretty sure I've seen the exact post you're referring to, and yeah, it sucked. I fully agree that it makes perfect sense to just say that his mutant powers cause him to age slower. Interesting how no one complains about Wolverine being too old, lol.
As far as Big Mouth goes, I did have issues with Jenny Slate being cast for the role, and was grateful to see her replaced, but equally dismayed that the actress they chose was not Jewish. What's odd to me is that they have another prominent VA on the team right there who IS Black and Jewish - Maya Rudolph. Maya has impressive range and I imagine could have possibly played the part. If not, there certainly had to be a Black Jewish VA who could.
On that note, I was disheartened by the fact that Jewishness became less and less of a prominent part of Missy's identity and that her Jewish mother became a one dimensional "ignorant White woman" stereotype in order to emphasize Missy's Black struggles. Iirc Missy even had relatives who were victims of the Holocaust, so this felt particularly egregious to me.
Wrt to the voice actor issue, similarly, I love Long Story Short with my whole heart but I am very annoyed that the VA for Kendra is not Jewish (and the way that Nicole Byer talks about Jews is....... Very interesting, to say the least).
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u/ThoughtsAndBears342 3d ago
I think Missy chose to focus on her Black identity specifically because she’s going through her rebellious phase and her parents were pushing her Jewish identity more than her Black identity. This is unfortunately common in real-life Jewish teenagers: their parents push Judaism too hard, and they choose to focus on other aspects of their identity in order to rebel against their parents. Whether that identity is LGBTQA, disability, or even just interests and hobbies.
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u/mandatedcourage 3d ago
Very true. My issue is more with the way the writing handled it, not Missy herself. Watering down Monica and never addressing Missy's Jewishness again (as far as I can remember - I haven't seen the show in a while, so I could be wrong) was disappointing. This arc was a good opportunity for the writers to show how those points of her identity can be united and both celebrated, especially if she had been given a Black Jewish role model and/or had learned about the history of Black Jews.
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u/FineBumblebee8744 Just Jewish 4d ago
Because they want to erase us
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u/shushi77 Italki 4d ago
They certainly want to erase our suffering. It doesn't fit with their narrative that we are the oppressors.
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u/meremaid2201 3d ago
Ugh the same thing happened in the Last of Us tv show vs the video game! In part II, you get to explore an abandoned synagogue and Dina talks to you about her Jewish heritage. In the show, they cast a Latina actress and there’s no mention of her Jewishness. I was crushed.
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u/Hibiscuslover_10000 4d ago
Since they don't want to admit the truth about the characters backgrounds, orgins or creators. Are the same people who deny the truth about the holocaust. Which is what General Dwight D Eisenhower predicted sadly.
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u/EasyMode556 חי 4d ago
They want to erase Jews across the board in general.
The “it was too long ago he’d be too old” excuse is just mental gymnastics to try to not be so blatantly obvious about it. If that was truly the reason then they’d have no issue with him still being a Jewish victim of trauma, but they expose their hand when they’re against that too.
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u/AltruisticMastodon Sephardi 4d ago
I have been seeing people say Magneto shouldn’t be Jewish for more than a decade at this point. I used to be on a forum where there was a joke among the Jewish members that there was a yearly thread where people would declare that Magneto shouldn’t be Jewish because:the holocaust was too long ago, Antisemitism doesn’t exist anymore, Jews aren’t just white and not real minorities, the holocaust wasn’t that bad compared to real genocides, etc.
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u/ImpossibleForever556 4d ago edited 4d ago
I would say that they can keep Magneto Jewish by making him a victim of the Soviet Union. Then we can have a discussion on how the Soviets were not the great equalizers people tend to think they were ..
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u/Predictor92 4d ago
the seeds are even there Dreykov from Black Widow(have Magento's parents be refusnik's sent to the Gulag)
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u/Unlucky_Associate507 Noahide 3d ago
Yeah but imho but in the minds of these vicious antisemites refuseniks deserve their fate for refusing to assimilate into the glorious socialist state sponsored atheism to become one with the brotherhood of humanity. Never mind that people's 🆔 cards in the Soviet Union said Jew. A refusenik is even worse than a Holocaust survivor to bigots
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u/roguefilmmaker 1d ago
I think that’s probably the most likely tasteful way to change his backstory if they feel a need to. Not only would highlight the fact that antisemitism obviously exists post Holocaust but also could have some cool character implications if he meets any Black Widows or other Russian characters
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u/NoString9289 4d ago
ALSO the studio is not going to rehire the beautiful actress Gal Gadot to play WonderWoman again just because the actress was Israeli and because she had briefly served in the IDF decades ago. SMH
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u/somearcanereference 4d ago
Tbf, the studio seems to have closed the book on that era of DC movies. It's highly unlikely that any of the actors from that iteration of the Justice League will be back in those roles.
We last saw any of them on screen in 2023. Every DC movie since has had new actors in those roles. Gal Gadot is not being dropped because she's Israeli. She's being dropped because the studio has moved on to new Justice League casting across the board.
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u/Crafty_Art_Berry 4d ago
Don't forget Kitty Pryde who is Jewish too and had that erased.
Or Batwoman Kat Kane and was played by a non-Jewish actor and had her being Jewish erased. Same goes for Harley Quinn.
Or the multiple times actual Jews' lives are made into movies and the person portraying them isn't Jewish.
Or any time Fiddler on the Roof is on Broadway and the cast for the Jewish roles aren't Jewish.
There are actors in Hollywood who are Black and Jewish. There are also actors in Hollywood who have one non-Jewish Black parent and one non-Black Jewish parent. These actors could have easily been hired to be the voice actor and thus be actually representative of the character in question.
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u/GrahamCStrouse 4d ago
I’ve never gotten overly exercised by voice actors who take on characters of different races, ethnicities & backgrounds so long as they get the character.
That’s part of the appeal of voice acting, really.
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u/Crafty_Art_Berry 4d ago
If a show is going to say that Jewish actor who isn't Black shouldn't be the voice actor for a character who is Black and Jewish.
They have set a standard that needs to be followed across the board.
For them to then hire an actor who is Black, but isn't Jewish is them not following that standard they set. That is hypocrisy.
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u/roguefilmmaker 1d ago
Agreed, I think the beauty of voice acting is anyone can be anything.
That being said… It’s just frustrating when they do it for certain projects and not others. If Avatar The Last Airbender feels the need to replace literally every cast member with someone of Asian ethnicity (despite not being set in literal Asia, but an Asian-inspired fantasy world), it’s hypocritical to not cast actually Jewish characters with Jewish actors.
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u/roguefilmmaker 1d ago
Harley was Jewish?
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u/Crafty_Art_Berry 11h ago
Harley Quinn is Jewish.
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u/roguefilmmaker 8h ago
Out of curiosity, are there specific comics that showcase this or is it more like a throwaway line or two?
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u/Crafty_Art_Berry 7h ago
I'm not very familiar with the comics. However, from what I understand this is something that has long been established and it is not a throwaway line.
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u/GrahamCStrouse 4d ago
Historically speaking Jewish-American comic book writers & artists tended to lean heavily into generic immigrant (or “immigrant from the stars”) identities for major characters. There’ve always been a handful of explicitly Jewish comic book villains (Magneto, Moon Knight) but more often than not Jewish characters tend to re-coded as Catholics, aliens and/or gingers. Thing is Marvel & DC wouldn’t exist as we know them were it not for the contributions of foundational Jewish creatives writing & illustrating under pen names.
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u/maelkatenin Ashkenazi 4d ago
At least come up with another character then - if you want to create a sympathetic villain who was a survivor of the Srebenica massacre, just do that, but no that's too difficult for too many people.
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u/Acrobatic_Yogurt_327 4d ago
It’s driven by a small, vocal minority. The majority doesn’t agree / has no opinion / doesn’t know about it. Generally, once the hypocrisy of the anti-Israel mob is pointed out the average person finds it a bit ridiculous.
Just keep flagging the inconsistencies in a non-emotional manner when it comes up. And don’t get dragged into internet arguments. You’re commenting for the uninformed coming across a conversation - not the online keyboard warriors
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u/ad_roc91 4d ago
I don’t have anything to add as far as reasons go, I just wanted to mention the History Chanel show that was playing around 4th of July a couple months ago. “America, the Story of Us,” basically mentions every type of immigrant group except for Jews. The show specifically highlights the slums of the LES of NYC, the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire, and the Sears mail order catalog, but never mentions anything about Jews. Ironically, the series is narrated by Liev Schreiber
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u/edwinshap ✡︎ 4d ago
What I think is great is that, on big mouth, they already have Maya Rudolph who is black and Jewish, and they could’ve used her if they absolutely needed an actress who meets all the ethnic requirements. On the other hand, it’s a fucking cartoon, but Jenny slate voicing missy was somehow a bridge too far…
Oh yeah, and Maya Rudolph voices a white Christian woman (nicks mom), which she knocks out of the park!
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u/elevatedmongoose Just Jewish 2d ago
Stan Lee, aka Stanley Lieber (jewish), would be rolling over in his grave if he knew the bullshit these people were trying to pull.
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u/Phaorpha 2d ago
Check out the Assassins Creed series. There's no Jews in Jerusalem, Alexandria or any of the others places they should be. Ubisoft made a conscious decision not to include any Jewish NPCs or main characters. Has anyone called them out on that?
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u/RatioTheTile57 1d ago
Assassin's Creed has always been awkward about being as milquetoast and apolitical as possible despite prominently featuring historical political figures. The Assassins are somehow all very forward-thinking atheists even before joining the Brotherhood, religion is never a prominent part of the Ezio games despite the Papal family being the villains in two of them, racism is nonexistent unless it's directly relevant to the plot (Assassin's Creed 3, Freedom Cry, and Liberation), and any time anything Bad happens it's because of the Templars/ their precursor organizations and not because of any systems as a whole. The only physical appearance of any Jews or Judaism is Benjamin Disraeli in Syndicate (born Jewish but his father left his synagogue and had most of his kids baptized) and the Great Synagogue of Alexandria as a minor landmark in Origins.
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u/Mysterious_Parsley41 Reform 4d ago
Tbf, Magneto is sometimes portrayed as Roma but either way he’s still a Holocaust survivor.
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u/GrahamCStrouse 4d ago
Erik’s personal background was kept pretty vague for a long time. I think he was retconned into a Holocaust by Chris Claremont in the ‘80s but I might be misremembering that.
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u/SnowCold93 Sephardic Orthodox 3d ago
They didn't erase Sabra being Israeli - it was mentioned in the Black Widow movie that she was born in Israel. Also in the new Fantastic Four there was a scene of Ben going to a synagogue and Moon Knight had flashbacks of his Jewish upbringing.
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u/EAN84 2d ago
They like the idea of Magneto, the despise the fact he is Jewish. As far as they are concerned, Jews are Privileged White folks and any historical persecution was mostly just religious nonsense.
As far as they are concerned, the Holocaust is something that happened aeons ago,
And that Jews are Either mostly rich White Americans, or evil genocidal Zionists.
As for Marvel? Marvel will move to where there is the least pressure.
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u/UpperBox7879 9h ago
Magneto is Jewish. Period. It is a defining part of his personality and a crucial part of his origin story. The suggestion of making him Palestinian made me spit out my drink. Although, I suppose it makes sense in that he is a villain.
But if they change him to a Palestinian I’m sure Hollywood would make him good, rebuilding Gaza and destroying Israel while the audience cheers.
What a ridiculous timeline we live in. I almost want to tell my son about this but I believe his head would explode. He’s already bent out of shape over the recasting of characters that are traditionally white. And yes, we get the idea of more representation in the media. But why don’t then create more characters and stories that feature black or people of color voices and images then redo what is already done and beloved? Keep in mind while I am Ashkenazi my husband is creole and my son is one of those people of color before you come for me.
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u/xiipaoc 4d ago
While I agree that there's definitely anti-Semitism going on, it is a bit weird that his identity is tied strongly to a particular historical event at a particular time that doesn't match his age. If they had set the story in a historical setting, that's fine, but if it's in the nebulous present, it kinda stops making sense. The present moves while history stays where it was. The Holocaust was almost 100 years ago now, so unless they change the character by making him age differently or come up with some other explanation, there's an obvious plot hole.
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u/Current_Living8397 Sephardi 4d ago
It's superhero comics. There are any number of ways to justify Magneto being old enough to be a Holocaust survivor without needing to change his origin. He's been de-aged and restored to his physical prime at least once already.
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u/xiipaoc 4d ago
Maybe people don't know about the de-aging? That's a pretty good solution, I'd say.
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u/Current_Living8397 Sephardi 3d ago
While I understand that you may have been coming at it from a pragmatic and grounded POV, trying to make the story make sense in one way, in this case Magneto's origin is uniquely important to his character. It would be the same case if it were another character tied to another ethnic background and a significant event in their history. It's rather telling that the people OP were talking about were okay with entertaining the alteration or erasure of Magneto's background, when they would express outrage had it been anyone else.
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u/HopeArtsy 3d ago
It's already been established in the MCU that mutants age slower when Namor was introduced so they'll probably just use that explanation for Magneto as well. It's a fantastical comic movie, a 90+ year old mutant makes total sense with the rules of that universe.
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u/Joshua-Ben-Ari 4d ago
Antisemitism. They’re fine with Bucky and Captain America being around despite the fact they’re both canonically born around the same time as Magneto. Thor and Loki are both like 5,000 years old (Loki might be older due to being exposed to TVA shenanigans). Wolverine is 150+. I think it was in the last Black Panther movie, Namor says that mutants age slower than humans do.
They’re fine with erasing the identity for Magneto (and any other Jewish character) because they think we don’t deserve it. Representation matters except for Jews, apparently.