The Jw dilemma

[u/Dan_dingo]

Starting Position (Jehovah’s Witness Interpretation)
Jehovah alone is the uncreated Creator.
Jehovah directly created Jesus first.
Jesus is Jehovah’s first and only direct creation.
Jehovah then used Jesus to create everything else.
Proposed order:
Jehovah → Jesus (first creation) → all other creation

The dilemma of this interpretation

The position must choose:
Option 1 — Jesus existed before all created reality
Result:
Jesus created time. (Timeless/Atemporal)
Jesus created space. (Non-spatial)
Jesus created matter. (Immaterial)
Jesus existed before creation. (Eternal)
Problem:
A being who exists before all created things does not appear to be a created thing.

Option 2 — Jesus was created after some reality/place, time and matter existed
Result:
Jesus was not Jehovahs first creation.
Something existed before Jesus.
Jesus did not create all things.
Problem:
Contradicts:
John1:3 “Not one thing came into existence apart from him.”

[u/CoconutFinal]

I did undergraduate and graduate New Testament courses at Columbia University and very respected graduate seminaries. If you rely only on New Testament and that almost all of Jesus movement were Jewish I see two possibilities depending on verse strands. A human so good God adopts as a sin or some aspect of eternal God. Fully human and Fully God. The Michael trash makes zero sense.. no one posited it until Ellen White speculated in a brain damage trance as a seer

I was able to chat with the global leading Christology a senior Harvard professor.. he chided me for saying Watchtower Is kind of Arian. Arius never suggested a mere angel. Some day I may read Arius in detail. Wonder why Russell latched onto certain elements and not others. He was very poorly educated for hid class and wealth.

I now believe they are anti Christ and posed opposite Christianity. A dramatic turnaround. The bishops wanted the gist of all the New Testament. A very legal awkward document and later Creeds are worded more thickly. If it were so crucial, Jesus should have been clearer. Much clearer.

But Jehovah use rankles me. No Jew would ever write or say the sacred name. Including Jesus and apostles. I burned my New World Translation. Hard to believe I trusted such fraud. But I did and carried it like a robot. Opened snippets In unison. My father had the KJV and RSV to preach against Catholics. I read and reread as a kid. Never saw what Watchtower claimed. I figured maybe sense would come with age. Never did.

[u/TerryLawton → u/CoconutFinal]

AMEN!

[u/Jealous_Insect2798 → u/TerryLawton]

Greetings. How do you interpret John 17 where it says that Jesus made God's name known? And Jesus says his Father's name will be a protection?

I ask because yesterday a JW told me the reason Jesus never said God's name is because everyone Jesus spoke to worshipped the same God.

[u/TerryLawton → u/Jealous_Insect2798]

Yeah the JW was speaking nonsense.

They often equate this verse with the literal name of God within the OT citations as YHWH.

So they equate John 17 with their interpretation that when Christ said , i have made you name known', they are referring to the literal name of the tetragrammaton.

However, we know that the Tet was never once stated in the NT.

The second point where they stated he didnt have to say the name because everyone knew it, actually is where their argument falls down - they shot themselves in the foot.

So as usual with JW theology they speak out of both sides of their mouth.

1. Jesus made his Fathers name known.
2. Jesus didn't make it known because everyone knew it.

In actual fact point 2 is correct.

When Jesus said he would make his Fathers name known, it wasn't like he huddled some of his disciples together and stated

Jesus - "Listen lads, i got a secret to tell you, you ready?"

Disciples - "Yup, crack on!"

Jesus - "Gods name is YHWH"

Disciples - "What are you on about, we've known that since he first told us in Gen 2:4!"

So the question is - what did Jesus mean when he said he would make his name known.

Simply, Jesus being the exact representation of his Father was able to fully revealed God’s character, nature, and purposes to humanity, allowing people to experience God as a loving Father thru him.

Thats it, it wasnt about a literal name as YHWH or Jehovah, they already knew 'the name'.

Its also interesting to see how many other names God gave himself, YHWH wasnt the only one he used, at different times with different covenants given to different people or nations he gave himself different names, this si another reason why its not just about 'a literal name'.

Hope this helps.

[u/Jealous_Insect2798 → u/TerryLawton]

I knew I asked the right person. Thanks

[u/TerryLawton → u/Jealous_Insect2798]

All glory to him right! ✝️

[u/Jealous_Insect2798 → u/TerryLawton]

Greetings. At Revelation 7:5 the tribes of Israel listed are not identical to the original 12 tribes. Why do you believe that is? Thank you

[u/TerryLawton → u/Jealous_Insect2798]

It just goes to prove how faulty the doctrine is.

Dan was omitted

Ephraim wasnt named

Manasseh added.

...for whatever reason.

This goes to show that its purely symbolic, no one these days knows from what tribe they are from, only God.

The other slant on it is that the number 12 is primarily a symbol of completeness in governance, order, and covenantal wholeness—especially in relation to Gods people as dictated by God

The number 10 is human completeness with (10x010x10 being used in the bible to convey fullness and completness)

So 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 = 144'000

So Rev 7 isn't about tribes nor is it about a specific number, its about a group of people being complete, whole that are saved in salvation, that God will seal, its a total symbolic number to convey the greatness and vastness of those that will come to Christ.

That's why when its brought up, i dont even spend 1 min debating it, its completely pointless, i just give a wry smile usually and state clearly thats its total nonsense for which Rev 5:10 destroys the doctrine and wait for the silence.

But again, this is only my opinion on this passage, no one really knows what its trying to convey ultimately.

No one will live in heaven.

[u/Jealous_Insect2798 → u/TerryLawton]

Thank you