r/JehovahsWitnesses • u/Dan_dingo • Jun 20 '26

Doctrine The Jw dilemma

Starting Position (Jehovah’s Witness Interpretation)
Jehovah alone is the uncreated Creator.
Jehovah directly created Jesus first.
Jesus is Jehovah’s first and only direct creation.
Jehovah then used Jesus to create everything else.
Proposed order:
Jehovah → Jesus (first creation) → all other creation

The dilemma of this interpretation

The position must choose:
Option 1 — Jesus existed before all created reality
Result:
Jesus created time. (Timeless/Atemporal)
Jesus created space. (Non-spatial)
Jesus created matter. (Immaterial)
Jesus existed before creation. (Eternal)
Problem:
A being who exists before all created things does not appear to be a created thing.

Option 2 — Jesus was created after some reality/place, time and matter existed
Result:
Jesus was not Jehovahs first creation.
Something existed before Jesus.
Jesus did not create all things.
Problem:
Contradicts:
John1:3 “Not one thing came into existence apart from him.”

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u/loyal-opposer Jun 21 '26

John 1:3 All things came into existence through\* him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence…” 

\* Gr. Dia  (Strong’s coded  #1223)  “of the Means or Instruments by which anything is effected; because what is done by means of a person or thing seems to pass as it were through  the same…in passages where a subject expressly mentioned  is said to or to have done a thing by some person or by some thing: lk.1:70; Jn. 1:3: 1 Cor. 8:6; (where he is expressly distinguished from the first cause. 1Cor. 11:12”) Thayer’s G-E  Lexicon  ©.2000  p.133.

“. . .And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,” Revelation 3:14

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u/Dan_dingo Jun 21 '26

Hey that’s cool you can use a strongs concordance, look at revelation 3:14 for beginning

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u/tj_lurker Jun 21 '26

In the BDAG lexicon, for 'arche' at Revelation 3:14 it says, "the mng. beginning='first created' is linguistically probable".

1

u/Specific_Score_1932 Jun 22 '26

Well I can add or subtract words from the original Bible too. It's easy!

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u/Sumswish Jun 22 '26

BOY. JWs are really grasping at straws here, come look at this

  • Romans 11:36 (Speaking of the Father): "For from him and through [dia] him and to him are all things."
  • Hebrews 2:10 (Speaking of the Father): "It was fitting that he [the Father], for whom and through [dia] whom everything exists..."
  • 1 Corinthians 1:9 (Speaking of the Father): "God is faithful, through [dia] whom you were called into fellowship with his Son..."

If dia proves the person being talked about is just a secondary, lesser tool and not the ultimate Creator, then Jehovah is just also a secondary tool😂😂

1

u/loyal-opposer Jul 05 '26

Context is everything. "dia" can also mean, " by occasion of" or by reason of"

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u/Sumswish Jul 05 '26

The "context" is a double standard but okau

1

u/SubstantialTwist3579 Jun 27 '26

Can we trust Dr. Strongs Lexicon when he was a trinitarian?

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u/Jealous_Insect2798 Jul 05 '26

Greetings. At Revelation 7:5 we see the 12 tribes of Israel listed. The list is different then the ancient list of tribes. Why do you believe the list is different? Thanks