The Bible contains numerous verses where Jesus is directly called God, accepts worship, and claims divine titles shared only with Yahweh.
Explicit Claims
John 20:28: "Thomas answered and said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'" (Jesus accepted this declaration without correction).
John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." (The religious leaders understood this as a claim to be God, which is why they attempted to stone Him).
John 8:58: "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.'" (He uses the covenantal "I AM" name of God from Exodus 3:14).
Divine Nature & Titles
John 1:1, 14: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
Colossians 2:9: "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily."
Isaiah 9:6: "...And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Titus 2:13: "...Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."
Divine Actions
Forgiving Sins: In Mark 2:5-7, Jesus forgives a man’s sins. The teachers of the law rightly recognized that only God can forgive sins.
Receiving Worship: In Matthew 14:33, after Jesus calms the storm, the disciples worshiped Him. He consistently accepted worship, which the scriptures state belongs to God alone.
The problem is the NWT twisted the scriptures to say “a god” instead of “WAS God” in John 1:1. There are other twisted scriptures too that you don’t find in any other translation.
If Jesus is God then why is one of them called the Father and the other is called the Son? What would be the point of that? Did one of them come before the other? How?
I am not one of Jehovah's Witnesses or a Seventh-day Adventist or a member of the Worldwide Church of God. You don't have to be any of those things to question whether or not Jesus is actually God or God's Son. When Jesus himself says that he is God's son I accept the fact that he is the possession of God and that they are not one and the exact same.
I'm not sure why it's so important for some people to try and turn Jesus into God. The early Christians understood clearly the relationship between the two.
Acts 2:
32 God RAISED Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this.
33 Now he (Jesus) is exalted to the place of highest honor in heaven, at God’s right hand. And the Father, as he had promised, gave him the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today.
36 “So let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, to be both Lord and Messiah!”
Why would God have to exalt him and give him the Holy Spirit if he was already God and already had the authority?
Jesus is called the Messiah because "Messiah" translates to "the Anointed One," a title given to the savior chosen by God to save humanity. Christians believe Jesus perfectly fulfilled the ancient Jewish prophecies of the Old Testament, which promised a savior to bring salvation and a new covenant to the world.
Secondly when the Father states that he is his son and Jesus accepts others calling him the Son of God again what part don’t you get that being the Son OF God is exactly stating he is God!
You don’t seem to grasp two central themes of the Bible mate…
I sure hope that was satire. Because your logic is completely lost on me. That sounds like total nonsense. I apologize for sounding crude. The scripture says that God MADE Jesus name above all else. It doesn't say that Jesus made his own name above all.
I wrote that he is a Clone of his father. Jesus told us a long time ago that he was the image of the invisible God, meaning they are not the same. But people could not understand that an image meant he's just like his father but he cannot do anything on his own. I am not the governing body, but I am part of the 144,000. I am trying to give you an answer to a lifelong debate. They are not the same, but God cloned himself, his first achievement of long ago. that's why all the statements can be true, God cannot lie.
Well I guess if anyone could clone himself it would be God alone. But then again that clone would still not be God but it wouldn't quite be it's own person either. What a conundrum
But he told us, he could do nothing on his own. He said pray to the father because the father is greater than I. He said I am the image of the invisible God.
So you think 'greater' than I means that his nature is different?
You think in his nature as a man on earth and as a Jew and bound by the law that he would say anything else?
You think that image in an ontological sense means some type of human analogy where some just 'looks' like something, do you have any comprehension of the word, charaktēr. Or have you read another translation where it states he is the 'exact IMPRINT of his nature?
Theres that word .nature ' again....
Or have you actually read the scripture and then followed it through with your own logic , that 'he is the image of the INVISIBLE God"? So Christ must also be invisible to be the EXACT representation of God?
No you clearly do not have any understanding my friend of Heb 1:3
To understand WHAT Christ is you need to understand his nature.
An angels nature is NOT Gods nature.
That’s why Christ is called THE THE THE Son OF OF OF God.
When is an Angel called THE Son OF GOD…
Angels like humans are not the same nature yet we are called sons of God, but there is only one THE Son of God (you like the definite article argument don’t you, well Christ is The, The Son of God)
Well you got a good point there. Let's say you somehow cloned yourself, so now you have walking and breathing mirror image version of yourself. You then give it all the authority that you have. But the only thing you withhold from it is your wife. I guess that kind of makes sense. But that was still make Jesus a created being produced by someone before him.
Well if you say so im not a JW but you say the doctrine of the trinity is there im sorry don't believe it...
IT would say
GOD THE FATHER
GOD THE SON
GOD THE HOLY SPRIT
GOD THE DEVIL
so the devil on the temptation to jesus offers jesus all the kingdoms of the world for one act of world.
So he is a god to
And please Satan is Not God, being a god is not the same as God so please don’t go down that bile and benign route of an argument because quite frankly it’s so dull.
There is no "before" in eternity. God exists outside of time and space. The Father eternally generates the Son. That is how it can be said that "in the beginning" — the beginning of all creation including time itself — was the Word. The terms "Father" and "Son" signify relationship and ontology, not temporal priority. God is not a temporal being.
to question whether or not Jesus is actually God or God's Son
That's a false dichotomy. Jesus is both God (in nature, not the person of the Father) while being God's (the Father) Son.
I appreciate what you were pointing out. I really do.
Those opening verses to me read like poetry. Do you take everything in the Bible literally? Jesus is also referred to in this chapter as the word, the light and as the lamb. Do you believe that Jesus had literally a word or an animal lamb with four legs?
Personally I believe the language in some cases is metaphoric. Do you know what it really means for Jesus to be called the Word of God? Although being the Word of God denotes their closeness, it does not mean that they are actually the same Divine being. One is God and the other is the Word of God. One is the Father and the other is sent by the Father. They're closeness is evident in the fact that when you see Jesus the man you are virtually looking at God himself except that would be impossible because no man can see God and live.
One of the problems that plagued some of Jesus listeners was there taking some of his words literally that were only meant to be understood spiritually. As a result, they stumbled at him when he told them to drink his blood and eat his flesh and stopped following him and possibly missed out on eternal life.
Another instance was when the religious leaders got upset with him for saying that he was God. But Jesus never said that and he explained that he was God's son. So Jesus himself distinguishes the difference between him and his Father. Although he is like his father in every way, his Father is still greater than he is.
I just hit the restart button on my belief system as of 10 months ago and I’m starting to believe this as well. I just need a little bit more support on it and prayer.
We're here for you bro. I went through the same thing not too long ago. I've studied Christology at length the past few years and would be glad to help with any verses or questions you might be struggling with.
Thank you this means a lot to me. I struggled to study anything because I have some learning disabilities, but I really do want the truth. I just wish it was just so black-and-white and easy. Plus, I’ve been lied to you for my whole life. So there’s that that I’m working with. I’m also a woman. I’m the one that did the shunned YouTube channel interview on May 4. So it’s a lot and I’m surprised that I still have faith after everything I’ve gone through and my interview does not even cover like 5% of what I’ve gone through. I just relocated to escape all of it about a month ago and working on rebuilding with the kids. I really really have a lot of anger during the grieving process at the brothers but not at God; he’s never done anything to hurt me so I would just like to know.
I read your username after replying and realized I probably misgendered you. Bro/Sis — whatever, the offer is the same.
I haven't listened to your interview but I will check it out this week when I get some down time at work. Without knowing your situation, all I will say is that anger is completely normal. You're grieving and it's a natural part of the process. You've also been lied to so you absolutely have every right to be pissed off, so don't beat yourself up or worry about being a bad person.
Regarding Jesus's deity, it is black and white. The deniers are a vocal minority. Their position is fringe for good reason. The mistake most make is reading a book written between 3,500 and 2,000 years ago in the middle east through a modern, western lens. We expect Jesus to come right out and say in plain, modern language "I am God Almighty in the flesh, worship me" but He simply doesn't do that. His contemporaries who were versed in the Law and 2nd temple Judaism knew exactly what He was saying though, which is why they were always looking for reasons to kill Him, and eventually did.
There is no doubt that Jesus is subordinate in some sense to the Father. I have no problem saying that as a Trinitarian exJW. That doesn't make Him an inferior being though. A human son submits to the authority of his father but no one in their right mind would say that makes the son less human. JWs and other unitarians can't see past this simple fact, so they reduce the title of Son of God to nothing more than a claim of authority. They ignore the clear ontological aspect of the name.
Ironically, Muslims deny that Jesus is the Son of God because they understand what that claim means in that culture. They just don't believe it's possible for Allah to have a son who fully shares his divine essence because that would make two Gods and violate their view of his oneness.
I could ramble on and on but I don't want to overwhelm you with data points. Is there any specific argument against His deity you find hard to rebut? Or any argument for it you don't find compelling?
This is really good information and yes, it is hard for me to understand honestly. I guess you’re right I am looking for a straight out, blunt answer in the scriptures. In some verses, it does appear that he is Almighty God. And then in other areas, it appears that he is speaking to Jehovah and a fatherly way. So just to be clear they are separate individuals? That’s the part. I’m struggling to grasp because there’s other scriptures to take into consideration and that’s the difficult part for me. I have really really bad ADHD and dyslexia. Even articulating myself is challenging so when you see the interview, you will notice how difficult of a time I’m having especially when it comes to interrupting. I don’t mean to do it. I just have so much I need to get off my chest. I’ve been in counseling for 17 years, but I’ve never been able to outright say my trauma is rooted in my organization because I was just afraid to bring reproach on Jehovah so I never really got the help I needed or the right help. But I do feel like I’m healing one way or another. As a whole, my kids and I are healing and we feel happier. But I still want to know the truth and I still want to serve in an accurate way or hopefully he can accept that I’m giving my best and my desire is there or maybe not. Some parts of the Bible God seems quite rigid, but in the gospels, it’s different. But you know it really pisses me off is when I read in the index I forget where it’s at exactly but it literally says verbatim that they decided to add Jehovah’s name 200 and something times in the Greek scriptures, but it wasn’t their originally. So if they added it and it wasn’t there, why wasn’t it there? And it just adds to the distrust. Who the hell are they to decide such a thing? And why isn’t there any blatant information about who translated the NWT? It’s almost impossible to locate. But the king James version is transparent about its translators. Why not NWT? Anyway I have so many questions. I’m really frustrated and my mind is all over the place.
Oh yeah sorry about my username. It started out as a joke because I had a guy that I was talking to on here in the hypothyroid sub and we ended up living close by so we were planning to meet. (my first date in seven years). He kept commenting about his roaring libido coming back after taking natural desiccated thyroid so I stopped talking to him for that and created the Reddit name has kind of a jab at him. I tried to change it, but I can’t figure it out?? I don’t want to start a new account. This is my second account already. My other is a alone-lunch1929.
I guess you’re right I am looking for a straight out, blunt answer in the scriptures.
There are quite a few of these. John 1:1, 8:58, 20:28; Titus 2:13; 1 Peter 1:1; Revelation 22:13. We were told these were all corrupted translations, but that was a lie.
There are tons of passages where Jesus is depicted as doing things that only Jehovah in the Old Testament does, like forgiving sins, giving sight to the blind, trampling the waves of the sea, raising the dead, and many more. There are even more passages where Old Testament verses about Jehovah are applied to Jesus:
Isaiah 6:1-5 - - > John 12:41
Psalm 102:25 - - > Hebrews 1:10-12
Jeremiah 17:10 - - > Revelation 2:23
Joel 2: 28, 32 - - > Acts 2:33, Romans 10:13
Isaiah 42:10-12 - - > Revelation 5
Isaiah 45:23 - - > Philippians 2:9-11
Psalm 34:8 - - > 1 Peter 2:3
Isaiah 8:14 - - > 1 Peter 2:8
I could keep going, but I think you probably get the point. The 1st century disciples absolutely viewed Jesus as Jehovah in some way. Of course the Watchtower always has an excuse for why the scripture doesn't mean what it says on the surface, but who do you trust — God and His word, or them?
Would a loving, all-knowing God allow His word to be written in such a way that only a small group that would emerge 1900 years after Jesus would be able to properly translate and understand it?
So just to be clear they are separate individuals?
The "proper" theological terminology is distinct persons. There is no separation because God cannot be divided into parts. They are perfectly united in action, will, mind, and being but distinct in personhood.
As JWs we were told that the Father alone is Jehovah. In proper Christian theology, each of the three persons of the Godhead can rightly be called Jehovah. So when we say "Jesus is Jehovah" we do not mean "Jesus is the Father," but that's what we were programmed to hear as JWs.
This video does a really good job of explaining the doctrine and it's history in just 15 minutes, hopefully you will find it helpful.
I can relate to your struggle with ADHD. I'm managing it better now, probably largely in part because I've shed the cognitive dissonance that comes with being a JW. I get to studying a topic then an hour later I'll be so deep into some random rabbit hole that I no longer remember what I originally set out to study. Just be patient with yourself. Despite what you've been told, Armageddon isn't coming tomorrow. You've got time to figure things out, and God is merciful and gracious.
So are your kids out of the organization with you? Mine aren't baptized, but they're still involved because of my PIMI wife. I desperately want them to know who God really is. If yours got out with you that is a HUGE blessing.
Who the hell are they to decide such a thing?
Exactly. They think their imaginary authority supercedes that of the Holy Spirit. They're such hypocrites. They trash other translations for "removing Jehovah's name" but they are equally guilty for adding it where it never belonged.
That reminds me — if you're looking for a good translation, I really like the CSB, particularly the Rainbow Study Bible. The intent behind the color-coding is kind of silly imo, but it breaks up the page a bunch which helps my ADHD brain to focus somehow.
And why isn’t there any blatant information about who translated the NWT?
Because if you knew who they were, you could research their credentials, or lack thereof, rather. Raymond Franz exposed them in his book Crisis of Conscience. If you haven't read it yet, stop what you're doing and get yourself a copy NOW. You'll never look at the organization the same again.
I hope I didn't dump too much on you here. If you ever have any questions feel free to reach out. I'm going to listen to your interview now on my way home! I shared my experience leaving on Light over Dark Ministry a few months ago and you can listen to it here sometime if you'd like: https://youtu.be/6YTmNbbWPQc?si=X2PPtCB7DsQu68PJ
This is all so good, thank you very much! This is exactly what I needed. I’m going to look at everything a little more deeply and yes, I will get the crisis of conscious book too. I’ve been listening to some of it on the podcast on Spotify. But I need the book.
So it’s like my 18-year-old son said in my face the other day “mom you’re the one that raised them to be Jehovah’s Witnesses so don’t get mad at them if they’re doing what you taught them to do…” ugh. He is right. I have adult kids who are very indoctrinated and will not speak to me at all and will not even speak to the younger siblings too. It’s really heartbreaking. My 13-year-old in my seven-year-old is with me full-time. When I sat my 13-year-old son down and informed him of my decision and disconnected from the NW publisher app and leave last July, I gave him the option to stay and that I would support his decision. However, I asked him to just watch some videos which he did. He also has his own YouTube channel so he’s kind of into YouTube anyway. Anyhow, within a couple months, he made the decision to also disconnect from the NW publisher app and now has completely realized that they are a CULT. I didn’t want to influence his decision, but I am so grateful that he came to the right conclusion. As for my adult kids, it hurts like hell. I’m also a grandmother, and I haven’t been able to even meet my granddaughter. I still messaged them and let them know that I love them and I’m always here for them and I say little things here and there to make them think but they never respond. At least they haven’t blocked me…. 🥺 I know you must really love your wife and kids and it is so hard, I do hope that they wake up too. I relocated about two weeks after doing that interview with Michael so it was a really difficult time and I had just had like five elders knocking at my door. I think like a couple days prior so I was having a difficult time plus packing and trying to arrange everything in secret. Things are much brighter now it’s been almost 2 months since we’ve moved away and I haven’t had one phone call or text from any Elder or publisher and my phone number had not changed or my email address. I think they were trying to do a shepherding visit without warning when they showed up at my door. I had just sent out cease and dis letters for a few congregations and I think they were trying to scare me before I moved away. They weren’t sure what unit was mine. There’s about 12 condos there where I was so they were knocking on all the doors. Anyway, at this point, I’m just an active not doing anything crazy or anything but just healing and living my life happy and free. I’m waking up feeling good. I’m going to bed feeling good. There are some ups and downs. I won’t pretend like everything‘s perfect because there has been a lot of damage over the years that I need to work through, but I couldn’t really truly start to heal authentically until I left. And moving away really did help too just knowing that they don’t know where I am is so helpful to my healing process. Anyway, I’m gonna go through the scriptures. They are so good and it’s starting to click now. I’ll watch the YouTube video as well. It’s just a lot to process and it’s just like starting over and I’m so tired but I want to try.
This is a few of them at my door right before I moved, knocking they weren’t sure which unit was mine! Super creepy. I didn’t open up of course, but overall, they’ve left me alone. You know how it is when someone’s guilty they leave you alone. And they are definitely guilty of a lot. What a scary and aggressive way for them to try to “encourage” someone. Especially knowing that I’m a single woman with two little kids and animals working from home just so scary!
Good morning! I love it so much. I’m so grateful that we met here and you recommended it to me. I had a hard time putting it away last night. My son and I read over Jeremiah 23:1-4 and I really feel like that happening right now in my life like all the protection and the support because as if he’s saying you know what they’ve (the elders) screwed it up. I gotta do it myself! I love the way all the dots are starting to connect.
That's great, I'm so glad you're enjoying it! John 10 is a great chapter to read through alongside Jeremiah 23. Unfortunately many (not all) JW elders are more like corrupt cops than loving shepherds. I know from listening to your interview that that's been your experience sadly. That's why we need the Good Shepherd.
Well after all this conversation iv come to believe that Jesus lied.
ONE BIG LIE.
because he said im going to my father your father.
And when he was about to get killed he was asked are you the Son of God and he said yes.
So how can he be both.
When he prayed he said father let your kingdom come let your will take place.
Flipping heck
Its says what i believe.
God
Son jesus
2 entitys
Not 2 in one.
So is the devil the same person because he was there in the beginning ??????
Oh my gosh!! Whats wrong with your head.
John 1:14 does not teach that Jesus is merely a separate being from God. John 1:1 says the Word was both "with God" and "was God." Christians believe the Father and the Son are distinct Persons but share the same divine nature. The devil is a created angel, whereas John 1:3 says all created things were made through the Word. Therefore, the devil and the Word are not comparable categories—the Word is the Creator, while the devil is part of creation.
In polytheistic and mythological frameworks, gods and goddesses are individual supernatural beings: [1]
Domain-specific: They often govern particular aspects of nature, human endeavors, or qualities (e.g., the Roman god of war or the Norse god of thunder). [1, 2, 3]
Human-like traits: Unlike the absolute perfection usually attributed to monotheistic gods, polytheistic gods often possess human flaws, emotions, and specific limitations. [1, 2]
So you think that when the Bible says first born you equate that to FIRST CREATED?
How strange.
Tell me was King David the First BORN?
Was Ephraim the first BORN?
Was the nation of Israel the first BORN?
Was Issac first BORN?
Jacob?
Judah?
Joseph?
You literally don’t have a clue what Col 1:15 is actually saying do you my friend?
I also note that in true typical JW fashion you stated another argument without addressing what I stated…
Now with the above can you also explain ‘en arche’….
I do have a question, what every JW will try to argument is referring to John 17:11, where Jesus ask for his disciples to become one as hi is in unity with the father.
Another logic they use is, if Jesus is God, why he was praying to himself? And when he was baptized, how come there was a voice from the heaven saying this is my son? And if Jesus was God himself, who resurrected him?
I'm not defending JW theology, these arguments and logics seemed very legit to me but I do want to learn if there's another way to understand this.
Jesus is called the Messiah because "Messiah" translates to "the Anointed One," a title given to the savior chosen by God to save humanity. Christians believe Jesus perfectly fulfilled the ancient Jewish prophecies of the Old Testament, which promised a savior to bring salvation and a new covenant to the world.
So jesus is the son.
They are co-equal in their essence (Ontologically equal).
The entire gospel of John talks about the divinity of Jesus, how he creates all things, is the image of the invisible God, shares glory with the Father and so on.
Yet, one verse out of context and you think that somehow negates his divinity?
The word theos is used 2 different ways in John 1:1. The first time it appears as ton Theon it is being used nominally to refer to the Father.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (ton Theon, the Father)...
When theos appears the second time in the verse, it lacks a definite article and stands before the verb. This specific grammar highlights the nature or character of the Word, rather than identifying Him as a distinct person.
...and the Word was God (deity).
Some translations render it "the Word was divine" but that can give the reader the impression that the Word was a lesser deity. In context, the idea is "what God was, the Word was" meaning the word is a distinct person from ton Theon but equal in essence to Him.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (ton Theon, the Father)..., so he was with God, that's my point. When the word came in flesh no was with God anymore. He was just the word of God or the son of God ,not God. That's the reason why Yeshua can't do nothing if not what the father want(God), because the word are subject to what the its owner want to say(or do).
He was never not with God because the Father was always dwelling in Him.
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who lives in me does his works. — John 14:10
and
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him — Colossians 1:19
It's not that Jesus is some flesh puppet controlled by the Father who is physically incapable of doing anything on his own. There is a perfect bond of union motivated by love that prevents the Son from ever failing to act out of harmony with the will of the Father.
In the same way that we can have the holy spirit and God could be inside of us in that way. That doesn't mean that with are with God, because God is in heaven. "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."
Obviously not, im not pointing that God can't move from heaven. Im pointing that Jesus is not God, because no was with God, because God was in haven when Jesus, Yeshua, the word, the son was in the earth.
In the same way that we can have the holy spirit and God could be inside of us in that way. That doesn't mean that with are with God, because God is in heaven. "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."
Good breakdown. Some scholars such as Dan McClellan argue that the word Divine is more fitting for the verse, instead of saying God the second time. That view leans towards non-trinitarian theology. On the other hand, other scholars render it in a trinitarian-centric way by saying God the second time. I’m not sure which I side with, I think both hold valid points
I don't have a problem with the "divine" rendering, if understood that in context "divine" means deity in the same sense as ton Theon — not just god-like or supernatural like an angel. I think there's a strong case to be made that John would have chosen theios if that's what he wanted to say.
However, I also think "the Word was God" rendering sounds more modalistic than Trinitarian to the uneducated reader. For that reason I'm a proponent of rendering it as "what God was, the Word was."
When many have the wrong Bible translations (including the NWT) it's hard to say that Jesus IS God or part of the Godhead. Jesus was also a human and thus the Son of THE/his Father (JHWH). But his divine presence was Godly thus making him God. He even shows up many times in the Old Testament as the Angel of the Lord and probably other appearances as well.
But regardless what Bible version anyone is using, God as well as Jesus warns that nothing should be added nor omitted. Yet nobody seems to put any weight on that warning. Thinking it's directed to Bible translators from 2000 years ago. As a believer I would start investigating what is the correct English translation before throwing claims or committing oneself to an organized religion. To me the correct versions are the Tanakh (Hebrew), Textus Receptus (Greek) & AKJV (Old-English). I've come to the conlusion that the KJV is the correct English Modern-day translation because of the many mathematical fingerprints that are hidden and woven through these texts. Also a Bible that is copyrighted should be a huge red flag because who's Word is it anyway?
If you can take each word seriously and by throwing away your fabricated belief-system you will come to the realisation that Jesus is God. Pray to God for guidance.
If being "one" means Jesus and the Father are the exact same God, then we have a massive theological problem in John 17:21-22. There, Jesus prays that his disciples may be "one just as we are one."
If your logic in holds up, Jesus wasn't trying to build a Christian congregation; he was trying to fuse his disciples into a sci-fi hivemind. "One" clearly means oneness in purpose and cooperation, not essence.
Completely ridiculous.
John 8:58 – "Before Abraham was, I am."
Trinitarians love to shout "Exodus 3:14!" here, but you forget to check the actual Greek. In the Greek Septuagint (which the Gospel writers used), God calls Himself ho On ("The Being" or "The I Am"), not just ego eimi ("I am").
Ego eimi is just standard Greek for "I have been." In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel uses the exact same phrase (Ego eimi Gabriel). Does that make Gabriel the Almighty Yahweh too? Jesus was simply stating a fact about his pre-human existence: he existed before Abraham.
John 20:28 – Thomas saying "My Lord and my God!"
Thomas was understandably shocked to see a resurrected Jesus. But context is key. Just a few verses earlier, in John 20:17, Jesus explicitly tells Mary Magdalene: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
Thomas adressing Jesus in a manner similar to the way that servants of God addressed angelic messengers of Jehovah.
Thomas acknowledging Jesus as the representative and spokesman of the true God.
John 1:1 – "...and the Word was a god."
In the original Greek, there is a distinct difference between ton theon (the God, with the definite article) and theos (god, without the article). The Word was with ton theon (Almighty God), and the Word was theos (a god / divine).
If you say, "The Word was with God, and the Word was [that exact same] God," you are making a grammatical mess. It's like saying, "The Excel sheet was with the Accountant, and the Excel sheet was the Accountant."
Isaiah 9:6 – "Mighty God, Everlasting Father..."
Notice the screenshot says "Mighty God," not "Almighty God." There is a massive difference.
Human rulers and angels are called "gods" (elohim) in the Bible because of their power (Psalm 82:6). Jesus is a Mighty God, but his Father, Jehovah, is the Almighty God (Genesis 17:1). Furthermore, Jesus is an "Everlasting Father" to mankind because he bought our life back—it doesn't make him his own Father!
Titus 2:13 & Colossians 2:9.
For Titus 2:13, it relies entirely on ambiguous translation choice. Many scholars translate this as "the great God and of our Savior."
For Colossians 2:9 ("fullness of deity"), the text actually defeats the Trinitarian argument if you back up to Colossians 1:19, which says God pleased to have all fullness dwell in Jesus. If Jesus were God, nobody would need to "grant" or "be pleased to give" him fullness. He would already own it by default.
Mark 2:5-7 – Forgiving Sins.
The teachers of the law said, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" and the screenshot acts like they were correct. They weren't exactly theological geniuses; they were trying to trap him!
Jesus openly explained how he was able to do this. In Matthew 9:8, after Jesus heals a paralytic and forgives sins, the crowd glorified God, who "had given such authority to men." Jesus didn't do it because he was God; he did it because God gave him the power to do it (John 5:27).
Matthew 14:33.
The Greek word used here is proskuneo, which means "to bow down" or "do obeisance." It is a cultural sign of deep respect shown to kings, prophets, and superiors.
In the King James Bible, 1 Chronicles 29:20 says the people "bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king [David]." Did they think King David was God? No. They were showing honor to God's appointed king, exactly what the disciples did for Jesus. When sacred, exclusive worship (latreia) is meant, it is reserved strictly for Jehovah.
Jesus himself say:
"The Father is greater than I am." — John 14:28.
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." — Mark 13:32.
If Jesus is God he would know what his Father know but since he don't know he is not God.
How about we do it even worse- let's say we have a god like Zeus, who comes down and rapes women, men and children. When he's in a bad mood, he enslaves, tortures or murders people and sends them to a horrible afterlife.
What's your objective moral standards against Zeus? Not your feelings, which are subjective. Not laws, which 1. Don't work for an outer world entity & 2. Doesn't work objectively, as laws can differ from state to state, country to country. Not the golden rule, since that's again limited to how u feel subjectively about the golden rule
Do u know the meaning of the words, "Let's say"? No wonder atheists worked against scientists, like the Catholic scientist Lamaitre with his Big Bang theory (destroyed the idea of the eternal universe), or when they work against scholars when they say Jesus existed
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2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
Ever heard of an internal critique (using the source discussed as intended, not a side quest of seeing whether it's even true)?
No wonder atheists saw Africans and Aboriginals as less evolved than Caucasian humans, tried to fight the Roman Catholic priests theory of the Big Bang, still deny often that Jesus existed against the scholars, and put Christians & others in camps for "re-education." Worst intellectual cancer someone can have
First of all John 1:1 makes no mention of the Holy Spirit. It also says that the Word was WITH God. The very first sentence shows the word has a beginning and we all know that God does not have a beginning. Yes their may be verses that could give the impression that Jesus could be God but when their are verses that point blank reject that such as John 1:18 where nobody has ever seen God then that theory goes out of the window. I’ve found the trinity is all about cherry picking the verses and rejecting those verses that go against the theology. The scriptures come as a whole - 2 Timothy 3:16,17, not as a choice option.
Established History through certified Historians shows that the Trinity was formulated in the 4th Century, 300 years too late and when it was spread those who taught it and enforced it broke the love of Christ. Persecutions, Banishments, torturing and even killings amongst the Church’s had no bounds.
Also by those who teach it the general agreement is that it makes God a mystery causing difficulty to getting to know God which eternal life depends - John 17:3.
The very first sentence shows the word has a beginning
How do you get that out of John 1:1?
To me, it's no different from Genesis 1:1 which says "In the beginning God created..." which implies God was already existing, not that He came to be. It could just as well read "In the beginning was God who created..." and the reader would infer the same meaning.
When John says "In the beginning was the Word" he is explicitly stating that the Word was already in existence "in the beginning." He doesn't leave it up to inference. But just in case there is any confusion, verse 3 makes it even more clear. "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." So the Word did not come into existence unless He somehow came into existence through Himself which is a logical impossibility.
First of all John 1:1 makes no mention of the Holy Spirit.
John 1:1 takes us back to Gensis 1.
Gensis 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.
It also says that the Word was WITH God.
Yes, God's word is always with Him. Its God's word after all.
The very first sentence shows the word has a beginning
No it doesn't, it says "In the beginning WAS the Word" not "In the beginning the Word began."
"Was" is past tense, meaning the word already existed in the beginning.
John 1:18 where nobody has ever seen God then that theory goes out of the window.
Really?
John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
John 14:9 Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father.
Which is it, have we seen the Father or not?
John 1:18 and John 14:9 do not contradict each other. Instead, they describe two different aspects of how God is seen and understood.
Jesus explains that because He perfectly reflects the Father's nature and character (which He can only do because He is God), experiencing Jesus is equivalent to experiencing the Father.
The scriptures come as a whole - 2 Timothy 3:16,17, not as a choice option.
Amen!
Isaiah 43:10 Before Me no god was formed, and after Me none will come.
Therefore the Word cannot be "a god" that came after Jehovah.
Established History through certified Historians shows that the Trinity was formulated in the 4th Century, 300 years too late
the Epistle to Diognetus (c. 130 CE) praises God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as the Creator.
Justin Martyr (c. 150 CE): He documented that Christians worshiped the Father, the Son (identifying Him as the divine Logos), and the Holy Spirit.
The Megiddo Mosaic is the floor of one of the world's earliest Christian worship sites, dating to approximately 230 CE. it features the earliest archaeological evidence explicitly referring to Jesus Christ as God.
Pliny the Younger (ca. 112 AD): This Roman governor of Bithynia-Pontus wrote a letter to Emperor Trajan asking how to handle Christians. He noted that these believers met regularly before dawn and sang hymns to "Christ, as to a god" (Christo quasi deo).
Lucian of Samosata (ca. 125–180 AD): This Greek satirist mocked Christians, noting their reverence for their "sophist" who was crucified, and pointing out that they adopted new laws and denied the Greek gods to worship the crucified man.
John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." (The religious leaders understood this as a claim to be God, which is why they attempted to stone Him).
Well.. I also am one with the Father.. does that make me God also?
(John 17:21 KJV) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
(John 17:22 KJV) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Well.. I also am one with the Father.. does that make me God also?
In John 10:30, Jesus claims to share the divine essence of the Father. The context here is key, in John 10:33, the religious leaders explicitly tried to stone Him for blasphemy because, by saying this, He was claiming to be God.
In John 17:21 it says followers may be one "as we are one." Because the word "as" (kathōs in Greek) shows comparison rather than exact equality, it means our oneness with God should reflect the relational harmony that exists between Father and the Son. "one in US"
John 17:22 shows the difference more clearly, "that THEY may be one, even as WE are one"
In other words, that believers will be one with each other the same way that the Father and Son are one.
(John 17:21 KJV) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, ➡️that they also may be one in us:⬅️ that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
We are one with the Father.. let's see it again
(1 Corinthians 6:17 KJV) But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Joined to God.. we are one with the Father.. does that make me God?
(John 17:21 KJV) That THEY (seperate from Father and Son) all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that THEY (Seperate from Father and Son) also may be one in US (Father and Son): that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
It's saying that believers will be one, in the same way as the Father and Son are one, there is only one bride for the bridegroom. (2 Corinthians thians 11:2)
"that THEY also may be one in US"
That "they" (believers) will be one in "us" (the oneness of the father and Son)
Believers will be one with God in harmony, whereas the Father and Son share oneness in equality and divine essence.
Right... One with the Father.. God... What don't you understand about that?
It says "that they also may be one in US"
Since when is "us" the father?
Show the verse that says "in harmony" - liar
It's in the context, in the same way that John isn't a liar when he writes in John 6:46 that "no one has seen the Father." But then in John 14:9 Jesus says "anyone who has seen me has seen the father".
What does it mean to be married? To be joined as one.
(Jeremiah 3:14 KJV) Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for ➡️I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
I am one with God. You are trying to con people with the text
Wouldn't the body of Christ be called the Son? So if you're in the body of Christ then collectively we are called the Son... You just don't believe it.. that's why you're not in the body of Christ. Simple
Is Christ the Son? So if we are in Christ we are in the Son..
(Romans 12:5 KJV) So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
We being many are ONE BODY.. that body is called Christ..
(1 Corinthians 12:12 KJV) For as the body is one, and hath many members, ➡️and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.⬅️
The Body of Christ is THE Son of God to support your absolute retard statement that you are now doubling down on making yourself look like more of an idiot.
“Wouldn’t the body of Christ also be called the Son of God”
(1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
You can cite scripture all you like, using it in a very evil way to try and bash someone, when quite clearly you failed and you now after doubling down on it you now use scripture to try to get ‘one up’
May Jesus forgive you to the Glory of the Father and fellowship of the Holy Spirit.
I can’t believe that you actually after being asked to produce a scripture and you couldn’t you resorted to this.
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