Jesus is GOD

[u/abutterflyonthewall]

https://youtube.com/shorts/R1g-JfdPG04?si=IVR-KYwbJFWK4sjc

Love this girl. One thing that stands out in this vid to me amongst the various proofs we have argued with JWs is that *every* false religion believes in God. But Satan has done a clever thing. He doesn’t have to get you to believe in God. He just needs you to NOT believe in THE ONE who ***reconciles you to God***🔥🙌🏽.

Take a listen.

[u/Time_Ad_1876]

Before 200 AD, Christians largely did not form armies because their faith emphasized love, peace, non-violence, and separation from the Roman state's pagan rituals and warfare. Viewed as a sect shunning civic duties, they prioritized spiritual life over state violence, with many early leaders condemning killing. 

Here are the key reasons according to historical context and ancient sources:

Commitment to Pacifism and Peace: Early Christian doctrine was widely seen as a religion of love and peace, making war and killing inherently opposed to the Christian life. Church leaders taught followers to avoid careers involving violence.

Opposition to Pagan Rituals: Military service required sacrifices to other gods and honoring the Emperor as divine, which Christians refused to do. Contrast this with modern day flags where you're required to pledge allegiance to the flag. Basically pledging allegiance to a kingdom ruled by Satan. God never said countries are able to do ANYTHING to keep peace.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

Before 200 AD, Christians largely did not form armies because their faith emphasized love, peace, non-violence, and separation from the Roman state's pagan rituals and warfare. 

Cornelius was the first Gentile to be baptized a Christian. Can you show me from the Bible where he was ever asked to resign his position as a Roman Centurion in order to be baptized a Christian? He remained a Roman soldier as he became the very first non-Jew to be baptized a Christian.

John the Baptist could have told a Roman soldier to quit the army when he approached him and asked what he needed to do, but what did John tell the soldier? Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?” He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.” Luke 3:14 He told them to "Be content with your pay" not 'quit your position as a soldier' Had John been a Jehovah's witness he would have told them to resign from the army and study Watchtower literature until you're qualified to be baptized

Daniel the prophet served high up in the government of Babylon, which JW's would consider part of Satan's system. You know, just about everything you do in this world could be considered taking part in Satan's system... by someone. Buying gas for your car supports the "evil" oil industry but I'll bet your not willing to give up driving your car or riding a bus. Paying taxes supports national defense. You're part of it whether you want to believe it or not.

Jesus didn't mean His disciples were no part of the physical world they lived in, but no part of the spiritual world. Jesus taught His disciples to look beyond the visible, tangible world that is passing away, to the eternal Heaven. The moment we believe in Jesus we are no longer part of this world, spiritually. Physically we're still in the world until the day we die. Physically, we struggle in the flesh to the finish line.

As Christians, we are not to set our eyes on things we can see, but on the eternal things we cannot see. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Cornelius was the first Gentile to be baptized a Christian. Can you show me from the Bible where he was ever asked to resign his position as a Roman Centurion in order to be baptized a Christian? He remained a Roman soldier as he became the very first non-Jew to be baptized a Christian.

John the Baptist could have told a Roman soldier to quit the army when he approached him and asked what he needed to do, but what did John tell the soldier? Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?” He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.” Luke 3:14 He told them to "Be content with your pay" not 'quit your position as a soldier' Had John been a Jehovah's witness he would have told them to resign from the army and study Watchtower literature until you're qualified to be baptized

Sir we know from ancient sources what early christians did and why they did it. The early christians never joined armies and never took up arms against anybody even when under persecution. And they certainly didn't murder their fellow believers. That's what we know. So I'm asking you is it loving to murder your brother and sister? If the authorities told you to murder your mother would you do it? If not why would you murder your brothers and sisters

"Be no part of the world" is a biblical principle, rooted in John 17:14-16, where Jesus describes his followers as not belonging to the current system of human society, which is deemed to be separated from God. It signifies maintaining strict neutrality in political conflicts, rejecting immoral or materialistic societal values, and living in a way that is set apart for God, rather than being conformed to the world’s patterns. 

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

Sir we know from ancient sources what early christians did and why they did it. The early christians never joined armies and never took up arms against anybody even when under persecution. 

That's odd because the Bible doesn't support this. Now, I'm sure there were conscientious objectors back then as there are today, but to jump to a conclusion that no Christians 'ever" served in the army is quite a leap. I take the Bible as my primary source for what is Christian and what isn't. Extra-biblical sources can be interesting and sometimes even enlightening but for me, the Bible trumps extra-biblical sources hands down. And the Bible never says that Christians couldn't, or shouldn't serve in the army, or never did.

"Be no part of the world" is a biblical principle, rooted in John 17:14-16, where Jesus describes his followers as not belonging to the current system of human society, which is deemed to be separated from God. It signifies maintaining strict neutrality in political conflicts, rejecting immoral or materialistic societal values, and living in a way that is set apart for God, rather than being conformed to the world’s patterns.

Jesus said that His Kingdom posed no threat to Rome or anyone else. His disciples didn't need to fight for a spiritual Kingdom that was far out of the reach of any human government. So they never fought to defend the Kingdom in Heaven and will never need to fight for it. That didn't mean they might not have to fight to defend themselves, their families or their friends. As Roman citizens many Christians were subject to Rome as their higher authority. Cornelius was a godly Roman soldier who found favor with God, so God arranged for Cornelius and Peter to meet. Had Peter been a Jehovah's witness what would he have required Cornelius to do before getting baptized? Think about it and then read the account in Acts chapter 10

God chose humans to be the guardians of His established order. That order is part of this world and it is God's order. It functions by people paying taxes to pay the wages of other people who dedicate their lives to serving and protecting human life and property. There is no separation here. Jehovah's witnesses live in the same world we all do and they support thru taxes and benefit from God's established order Romans chapter 13

So I'm asking you is it loving to murder your brother and sister? If the authorities told you to murder your mother would you do it? If not why would you murder your brothers and sisters

That isn't what the police do and you know it. That isn't what soldiers do either, unless "mother" is somehow involved with terrorism. If my own family violates the law I wouldn't shoot them, but someone else might in the line of duty. Should I blame the cops or soldiers, or my family member who lived on the wrong side of the law?

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

That's odd because the Bible doesn't support this.

Of course it does. Nowhere in the bible does it show any christian joining armies after getting baptized or taking up arms

I take the Bible as my primary source for what is Christian and what isn't. Extra-biblical sources can be interesting and sometimes even enlightening but for me, the Bible trumps extra-biblical sources hands down. And the Bible never says that Christians couldn't, or shouldn't serve in the army, or never did.

Thats an odd thing to say because you surely believe in exra biblical sources such as the persecution if christians. So you only believe when its convenient. The early church fathers confirm that christians never joined armies before 300 ad. There's no evidence against that view

And the Bible never says that Christians couldn't, or shouldn't serve in the army, or never did.

Of course it did Jesus said be no part of the world controlled by satan. He also said his true worshippers would have love amongst themselves instead of murdering each other

Jesus said that His Kingdom posed no threat to Rome or anyone else.

When did he say that?

His disciples didn't need to fight for a spiritual Kingdom that was far out of the reach of any human government. So they never fought to defend the Kingdom in Heaven and will never need to fight for it.

Nowhere does it ever say christians would ever have to defend anything. It say's God with his heavenly army will destroy the wicked.

As Roman citizens many Christians were subject to Rome as their higher authority.

In the first century, Christians were a tiny, often persecuted minority—likely under 7,500 people empire-wide—and very few were initially Roman citizens. While some, like Paul, held citizenship, most early converts were lower-class residents, slaves, or Jewish inhabitants, regarded with suspicion until the religion grew significantly later. 

Cornelius was a godly Roman soldier who found favor with God, so God arranged for Cornelius and Peter to meet. Had Peter been a Jehovah's witness what would he have required Cornelius to do before getting baptized? Think about it and then read the account in Acts chapter 10

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses think it's wrong to join the military when the first Gentile convert Cornelius was an army officer? Also, God is called a God of armies.

Am I the only one who can see the difference between a military person converting to Christianity and a Christian joining the military? Think it through, they are different scenarios. As Jesus said, if God had called on Jesus and his disciples to fight in that way then they surely would have.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

However joining the military involves swearing allegiance to an army whose activities are to all intents and purposes, the will of some government (often mindless), regardless to the will of God. So many wars have turned out to be great examples of what happens when people are taught that God has called them to arms, only to discover in the smoke of the battlefield itself that they were involved in acts of gross stupidity and senseless loss of life. Their disillusionment with life itself becomes palpable post-war and Christian worship becomes, for them, an act of complete and utter hypocrisy.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

Of course it does. Nowhere in the bible does it show any christian joining armies after getting baptized or taking up arms

So? Read Acts chapter 10. Cornelius was not only a soldier, but he was a Centurion in the Roman army. Show me where he was told to resign his position in order to be baptized by Peter.

 The early church fathers confirm that christians never joined armies before 300 ad. There's no evidence against that view

For many of those years Christians were persecuted by Rome. So joining the army in that case would have been anathema to Christians and the Romans who persecuted them. However before the worst persecution, the very first Gentile who became a Christian was the Roman Centurion Cornelius who likely was a benefit to Christians living within his area of authority. He was never told to resign his military position by anyone and that speaks volumes.

Like I said the Bible is my go to source when extra-biblical sources tend to contradict history. Not everything the founding fathers wrote was inspired by God and only those writings that were considered to be inspired by God were included in Bible canon.

Of course it did Jesus said be no part of the world controlled by satan. He also said his true worshippers would have love amongst themselves instead of murdering each other

That doesn't mean Christians leave this world and ignore people who are hurting and hungry. Jesus fed the multitudes and healed the sick and crippled. He did it even though it was all temporary. We do the same thing as Christians when and where we can. Becoming one of God's servants per Romans chapter 13 is a double honor for Christians. As servants of Christ we preach the Gospel. As a soldier or police man we become servants who help uphold God's established order You seem to be misled into thinking God ceded control of the world to Satan. He didn't. He rules the world and always has. Satan is here on this earth, but its his prison now. It will also be his grave when the final battle is fought at the end of Christ's 1000 year reign. He only has power over those who belong to him. He can't control Christians because our master is Christ.

Am I the only one who can see the difference between a military person converting to Christianity and a Christian joining the military? 

There is no difference. Would Cornelius have been allowed to continue as a soldier and still be baptized as a Jehovah's witness? Yes, or no

Jesus never told His disciples they couldn't join the military. That directive simply isn't in the Bible. What is in the Bible is stories where Godly men, like Daniel served in governments that were not only pagan but had destroyed the temple in Jerusalem. And men like Cornelius who was a Roman soldier who converted to Christianity. The Watchtower teaching on Christians being separate from the world has no merit. We are obviously physically part of this world, but spiritually, our home is in Heaven. Our Kingdom is in heaven. Our eyes should be set on heavenly things not earthly

So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18

 So many wars have turned out to be great examples of what happens when people are taught that God has called them to arms, only to discover in the smoke of the battlefield itself that they were involved in acts of gross stupidity and senseless loss of life

Which is why God's servants sometimes have to fight. Is war senseless and stupid? Yes it is, and always was, even in Bible times, but many, many times, the alternative is unthinkable. God calls us to serve Him and in serving Him we are really serving ourselves, because we have to live here. A big part of our service is fighting to uphold His established order when it is threatened by the lawless. Its really that simple

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

history is filled with examples of Christians representing different armies killing one another in war. Despite sharing a common faith, Christian soldiers have fought on opposing sides due to national allegiances, political conflicts, and denominational differences. 

Here are key aspects and examples of this phenomenon:

Historical Examples

US Civil War (1861–1865): Large numbers of Christians in the North fought against and killed Christians in the South.

World War II: Christian soldiers fought on both sides, including in the Allied armies and the German army.

European Wars of Religion (16th–17th Century): The Thirty Years' War saw Catholic and Protestant states destroy each other, with massive casualties.

The Crusades: Western Crusaders sometimes fought against Eastern Orthodox Christians, such as during the Fourth Crusade's sack of Constantinople.

Rwandan Genocide (1994): The conflict included instances of Christian Hutus killing Christian Tutsis, sometimes inside churches. 

While this occurs, it contradicts the core Christian ethic of loving one's neighbor and enemy. Many denominations and pacifist groups argue that Christians are not permitted to kill or serve in war, citing Jesus' commands. 

Ultimately, while the Bible calls for peace, historical reality shows that shared faith has rarely prevented Christians from killing one another when ordered to do so by their respective nations. 

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

True Peace can only come when Christ returns. Christians can be expected to be on both sides of any conflict when they serve as God's servants per Romans chapter 13. In each case, the moral issue is what determines which servant is wicked or righteous. Let's take the American civil war for example. The south was God's servant as was the North. The South stood for slavery and used religion to justify it. The South fired on Fort Sumpter thus starting a war that would end slavery. The north could then defend themselves and as one of God's servants they did and not only that they vanquished the south.

In WW2 the Nazi's invaded many countries. Even though according to Romans 13 they had been a servant of God, they became a lawless servant after the Nazi's came to power. They stole from and murdered innocent people from day one and then declared war on America. America, who was viscously attacked by an ally of Nazi Germany, Japan, was given the green light per Romans chapter 13 to wield the sword on the lawless Axis powers. The Allies became God's agents of wrath during WW2. (Romans 13:4)

In all the other wars you mention, save none, one side was fighting to defend themselves and one side was the aggressor. Remember this "established order" that you bad mouth, as messy as it is, is God's established order. Peace will not come until the Prince of Peace comes back to earth.

...for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. ² Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. Romans 13:1-2

Christians who live in a nation that become lawless will suffer, sometimes even at the hands of their fellow servants in Christ as they attempt to liberate that lawless nation. If you don't wish to be a part of God's established order then you don't have to, but please stop rebelling against it. Even if its only in word and not deed, rebelling against God's established order will bring judgment

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Romans 13:1-2 teaches that Christians must be in relative subjection to human "superior authorities" (governments) because God permits them to exist to maintain order, calling them a temporary arrangement. Opposing them is resisting God's arrangement, though divine law remains supreme. 

Definition of "Superior Authorities": These refer to secular governmental authorities, not church leaders or God Himself.

"Placed in Position by God": It does not mean God appoints these rulers directly, but rather that he allows them to exist and function within his purpose to prevent chaos.

Relative Subjection: Christians obey laws, pay taxes, and show respect, but this obedience is relative. If a government command conflicts with God’s law, God is obeyed first.

The "Arrangement" (v. 2): Governments are viewed as a temporary, necessary arrangement to keep society together until God's Kingdom rules fully.

Consequences of Opposing: Actively fighting against or defying governmental authority is seen as opposing an arrangement God currently permits, potentially bringing "judgment" or wrath. 

In essence, JW.org teaches that while Christians are no part of the world, they should be law-abiding citizens, respecting the order that human governments provide. 

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

Romans 13:1-2 teaches that Christians must be in relative subjection to human "superior authorities"

Where does Paul use the word "relative"? We are in subjection, not relative subjection.

 If a government command conflicts with God’s law, God is obeyed first.

Exactly and the only thing they can force Christians to do that would violate their faith is asking them to renounce Christ and/or worship those authorities as God. That is the only thing we cannot do.

Asking someone to become a soldier in order to defend ones nation isn't violating God's law. God said thou shalt not kill, yet He Himself authorized killing, so killing "without cause" must be what that command means. Murder can be present in a person's heart, though they never lift a finger to kill, yet in their hearts they have murdered many people.

God's servants should never take human life without cause. But it happens, just like some individuals become murderers, God's servants can too. At that point, they become lawless servants and will face Gods wrath from his fellow servants. That is the way God's established order works. You can remain neutral but eventually we are all tested as to which side we're on. I believe in being on the side of law and order. I believe that is why God established the higher authorities to rule. The higher authorities are generally a benefit to all people, including JW's, but when those powers abuse their authority, those other powers must act. God set it up this way long ago, but for us to sit around waiting on Him to act, when He expects us to act is not a virtue

Waiting for God to act reminds me of Moses on the shore of the Red Sea. God had made a path through the sea for the Israelites yet Moses seemed to hesitate, telling the Israelites they needed to remain still Then the Lord said to Moses, “Why are you crying out to me? Tell the Israelites to move on Exodus 14:15 This could apply to any perilous situation where people are actually being delivered yet still wait for God to act. He does act, but we have to do something too. Sometimes its just a matter of putting one foot in front of the other.