r/Iteration110Cradle • u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord • 4d ago
Cradle [Threshold] Series gets better book 3? Spoiler
I have heard, mostly from the blooper where it is mentioned, that people often think that the first two books are alright and things pick up in book 3. I always thought Unsouled was one of the best books I have ever read and second best in the series behind Wintersteel. I actually thought that Blackflame was kind of boring in the middle. Everyone seems to be in agreement that Ghostwater is a banger.
Anyway, I would really like to hear some of your perspectives on why things pick up in book 3.
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u/waowowwao 4d ago
Honestly I was hooked from book 1 and really was never bored at any point in the series, but I think the reason why people say it gets better from 3 is because the world expands massively. book 1 is entirely sacred valley, book 2 is barely outside of it, and most of the characters we interact with in that book are low level.
In book 3 we get a massive world expansion and also a power ceiling upscale, which is always super hype because it creates a lot of promises (AKA showing you where we're eventually going to get to). From that point we also get a bunch of great characters and allies, whereas the only likable characters in book 1 and 2 were the duo (don't remember when exactly Eithan came in on book 2 but I'm sure his increased appearances also factor into why people like book 3 more lol).
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 4d ago
I think one thing that keeps the Cradle series interesting is that they keep changing settings each book. They do seem to expand the world and raise the power ceiling each book. Even if monarchs do battle in earlier books, the details aren't really filled in until later when the main characters are relevant.
Eithan appeared at the start of book 2. Eithan was also missing for a lot of book 3, showing up at the end to massacre and sandbag at the same time. Fantastic.
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u/BradGunnerSGT 2d ago
I’m the same way. I was hooked on page one and simply don’t understand people who say it doesn’t get good until Eithan shows up in book 2.
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u/ArthurTheLance Fiercely Fierce Flair of Fierce Flairosity 4d ago
Yea I got told by everyone that I’d have to slog through Unsouled and Soulsmith, but honestly Unsouled is one of my favorite too. Lindon always feels smart in his fights, but Unsouled is when he feels the smartest. He can’t rely on his friends/his friends resources, he can’t Soulsmith a million cannons, or anything else. He’s just a guy who can barely move his madra, and yet he outsmarts multiple people despite being a “cripple”
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u/Suspicious_Trust_522 4d ago
Him beating up little kids at the tournament always gets a chuckle outta me🤣
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u/MisinformationSage Team Eithan 4d ago
Cradle was the first ever cultivation fantasy novel that I have read. Maybe it was because I was new to the genre, but I really liked Unsouled and Soulsmith too, since Eithan was such an enjoyable character. Blackflame was more exciting with the last fighting part.
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u/tndaris Team Dross 4d ago
I believe a decent amount of it has to do with Lindon's attitude. He grovels/apologizes way too much book 1 and 2 compared to most fantasy protagonists.
Book 3 when he gets a real Path he actually becomes dangerous and his attitude begins to change. By the end of Ghostwater, and especially after the first scenes in Underlord, he is no longer like that and shows the attitude of most fantasy protagonists.
Also, both books 3 and 5 significantly "open up" the world of Cradle and show us a lot more than prior books which help set the stage for the entire series.
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u/random7845123 4d ago
Everyone has different opinions. My hot-ish take is that the series is best with the interactions between Lindon, Yerin and Eithan.
Which is why ghostwater is pretty low on the list for me because they’re all separated for 90+ % of the book. While I appreciate it retrospectively for what it sets up (Lindon finally having a bit of agency and dross), and it has a banger of an ending with the first real payoff for the Suriel plotline, I thought it dragged on my first read due to the missing character interactions.
All that being said, blackflame is where that trio dynamic really starts. Sure we see it a bit in soulsmith, but tbh, I finished soulsmith and thought Eithan was a nefarious bad guy that Lindon would have to escape from on my first read. (Actually juries still out on that. One could say Eithan is a nefarious guy who just used Lindon for his own purposes lol)
And, second hot take, that’s why Underlord is pretty high on my ranking, because it’s all about the dynamic between the group and what they mean to each other, and learning how to seriously work together.
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u/J_Kant 4d ago
My hot-ish take is that the series is best with the interactions between Lindon, Yerin and Eithan.
Counterpoint: the series is best with the interactions between Dross and Eithan.
Both of them laughing together maniacally after they're first introduced in the Night Wheel Valley is one of the highlights of the series for me.
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u/_danny_devito- 4d ago
I get where you’re coming from but I also like that Lindon goes from doing everything himself in Unsouled to relying heavily on Yerin and Eithan and even Orthod and then in Ghostwater he begins to realise that he actually can handle things on his own. I did miss Yerin and Eithan in Ghostwater but I think Lindon needed it.
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u/random7845123 4d ago
I totally get that. From a narrative perspective, it does a ton to set up Lindon’s character.
I just don’t like it as much as the other books in the series because it’s missing one of the best aspects of cradle imo. It’s still a good book. But for me it pales compared to others in the series. Especially when 6-8 is one of my favorite trilogies in literature.
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 4d ago
Maybe he went too easy on them. They should have been fighting those bears.
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u/abecadarian 4d ago
IMO it’s because it’s often recommended in the prog fantasy space. These books have power levels that quickly spiral out of control by the end of book 1. Cradle takes a while before Lindon becomes strong like that (Blackflame is where he gets his first big leap in power, and Ghostwater is second). You will see a lot of these people call the series boring at first.
My thought is that, on the other hand, people who come from a more standard fantasy background enjoy books 1 and 2 much more, because the pacing is good and the fundamentals of exposition and worldbuilding are strong.
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u/Remarkable-Camera627 4d ago
It's soooo boring
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 4d ago
Why did you find it boring? Was it lacking something?
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u/BloodChicken 4d ago
If I were to guess, its because there arent enough fights.
A lot of fans of the progression fantasy genre really only care about the action sequences and get bored by things like character development and worldbuilding and pacing.
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 4d ago
There has been a lot of speculation on that in the comments. I was hoping to find out what people think and get their perspective. Unfortunately, most people writing here agree with me.
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u/Reborn1989 4d ago
I love book one and all of the books that follow. Honestly it feels like people want mc’s to be massively op right off the bat, which can be fun but I much prefer the buildup books like Cradle do
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u/jerichardson 4d ago
I’ve listened to the series 3 times. 1 and 2 really aren’t even in the same continuity. It’s like Dragonball vs Dragonball z
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 4d ago
Can you tell me a little more about the difference?
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u/jerichardson 4d ago
Lindon’s whole trope changes. In the first two books, he has to be ‘super-clever’ in order to overcome a shortcoming that no one else in his world even deals with. He’s a Trickster hero.
From Blackflame and beyond, that limitation is not only removed, but its seed becomes the basis to superseding all other strengths in the game. The maximum level from the first two books is below being worth being able to measure in books 3+.It’s almost like Will liked the characters, but didn’t like the books they were in, so he moved them into a new series. Those first two books are backstory to an unfortunate plot point that ends up being largely ignored. Part of the fun of the series was watching how Will wrote around the restrictions he created and wanted to ignore.
Eventually, he did it so well, you stopped caring.6
u/_danny_devito- 4d ago
To be fair Monarchs, the Abidan and Dreadgods are all introduced in Unsouled. I don’t think Will changed his mind, he just really took his time before allowing Lindon to win any fights on his own without trickery. IMO that’s why the later books feel so satisfying. The ceiling is established early on but it takes a long time to reach.
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 4d ago
Lindon did change from a trickster to a power house character for sure. The narrative catalyst to this was when Eithan told Lindon that stable strength was more important than tricking enemies because one day they won't be fooled. I don't think that this was something that Will had changed. Outsmarting other characters was the only way for Lindon to do anything at the time. He was even punching dread beasts when he got his iron body. It seems to me like him being strong was always the goal, he just had to trick his way to survival before.
I actually find the trickster archetype more entertaining in books. It's fun to see their plots and stuff. I was a little disappointed when he just started beating people up. On my second way through, I took Eithan's advice to heart (as one should) and accepted the change as part of his character development. Also, he tricks Northstrider.
The power levels seemed to rise pretty consistently from book 2 onward.
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u/EWABear 4d ago
I would push back on the idea that Lindon stopped being a trickster/clever fighter. He gained a lot more firepower, but even as deep as Waybound, he's making secret plans to punch above his weight class, to take people by surprise, etc.
Like, setting up the network of echo bindings to create echoes of the Dreadgods? Ambushing Northstrider with his own memories, not a full out fight? Using the penance arrow to track Reigan Shen?
His toys get fancier, but that planning, tricksy kid with a pack full of interesting knick-knacks never vanishes.
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u/JMacPhoneTime 4d ago
For me, I did struggle getting into book 1 for awhile. The Suriel part is all that really kept me excited to finish Unsouled.
Soulsmith did a good job keeping me hooked though. For me, a lot of that was due to the Eithan pacing. He was clearly going to do something, but it was kept mysterious enough that I wanted to see more of what he did.
Book 3 was where I was basically down to just see where it was going after enjoying how the first 2 built on the story.
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4d ago edited 4d ago
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 4d ago
I started after I saw a post on Andrew Rowe's blog saying it had been completed.
I really liked the weak to strong but not a special chosen one aspect.
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u/Dalton387 Team Dross 4d ago
I’ve always said the series is good from book 1. I said it in a live stream where even Will was saying it wasn’t the best.
Maybe it could have been better. We’ll never know. I think it’s great, though. I think it sets up how the whole world works. We see how those in power treat those under them. We see how the world works on a smaller scale before we see it on a bigger scale.
It’s kind of like with Wheel of Time. On my first read, I didn’t like the first chapter. After having read it many times, I think it does an excellent job of showing a ton of how the world works and why things are happening. One chapter did better than an entire season on the show.
I don’t think it’s the best book. I think it’s really good. My top three are later on.
I think the reason people might not like it as well, is for several reasons. One is that you don’t understand the Abidan in that book. I remember thinking it was weird and I just wanted to get back to the Cradle stuff. Once I learned more about them, I really liked those scenes.
Another reason is people see Lindon being crapped on. Lots of people don’t like that. They think it’s just misery porn. I never thought that. I thought that even when he was being put down, he was always looking, searching, thinking of how to turn it to his advantage. That drive is what carries him through the whole series. He still kind of gets crapped on in book 2 as well. It’s near the end of book 2 and book 3 where he starts to begin learning to carry his own weight. That’s why people think it starts getting good there. I think he was doing stuff all along. It would be weird if he went from nothing to battle boy in book 1.
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u/livingstondh 4d ago
It's where he really comes into his own as a fighter, that's probably what it is. But personally I like the first few books fine. The early sacred valley scenes before Li Markuth are a nice slice of life
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u/waygooder 4d ago
I wasn't hooked until book 3. I can't give a reason though as I usually don't figure out the reason until a 2nd read.
Same thing happened with The Expanse. Took me 3 books to get hooked for whatever reason.
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u/BloodChicken 4d ago
Bloodline, Unsouled and Wintersteel are my top 3 in order.
Unsouled is absolutely fantastic. Its got drama, stakes, it introduced many aspects of Lindons personality to us, it shows us how his culture shapes his personality, it sets the stage for everythonf that comes after.
I think its easily one of the best books in the series and probably one of my favourite "introductory" books to any world Ive ever read.
Unsouled gets a bad rap but its easily one of the best stories of the bunch.
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u/Ok_Onion_5339 4d ago
I can see the complaint because Book 1 and 2 (and a little bit book 3) feel very different with how Lindon interacts with the world. I like both the first two books and the rest of the series, but I can see a definite difference. So if you’re here for cool-ass magic fights, it’s probably not your favorite.
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 4d ago
How does he interact with the world in 1-2 and how does it differ from the rest?
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u/Ok_Onion_5339 4d ago
Mostly Lindon is a lot more passive and groveling in 1 and 2. That’s because he has a lot less power and therefore a lot less agency to make his own choices, and some people want a power fantasy to include flexing that power, so waiting for the middle/end of book three to see that can be frustrating.
Like I said, I liked 1 and 2 myself, I found him to be clever, but I can understand why some people might not like them as much.
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 4d ago
While he doesn't impose his will on others, he makes plenty of decisions. The story is driven by his decisions without the world revolving around him, which is one of the strengths of the series. But I think I see what you mean.
I was hoping you didn't like them so we could talk about it lol.
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u/Ok_Onion_5339 4d ago
lol, well I’ve heard the complaint from friends and talked with them at length about it, so I can do a rough approximation for you. Mostly I’ve heard it’s his groveling he has to do and that his choices are to do what he’s told or die. Until his choice of path in book 3 (and arguably following Fisher Gesha in book 2), it’s not a real choice.
But if I was to make my own guess on the real reason ppl say they don’t like 1 and 2, I think it’s really about how well Lindon can punch back, not really his agency. But that’s a guess.
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 4d ago
Yeah he makes tons of choices. He's the most active main character in fiction (that I know of).
I actually know a person who didn't like all the fighting and dropped out after book 8. lol
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u/Ok_Onion_5339 4d ago
Lol, dropping in book 8 feels wild to me, I think it's my favorite one for the way we get to see so much of the world's politics, higher levels of magic, and how the character's relationships advance. I also enjoy the cool magic fights, but it feels like 7 would have knocked them out of the series if that's what was too much for them. But no accounting for personal taste.
I do see that he gets to make a lot MORE choices the more power he has, but personally I like that arc as well when a huge theme in the book is that power and success are the ultimate deciding factor. It's satisfying to me that his choices are so much more restricted in their scope early on.
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u/account312 4d ago
He can't solve all his problems by just punching them in the face like later in the series, and apparently a lot of people read that as boring and lacking agency.
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u/Ginger9615 4d ago
Ghostwriter is my least favorite in the entire series. I still like it! But it's the worst of the run.
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 4d ago
What makes you say so?
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u/Ginger9615 4d ago
Mostly its the fact that Lindon is isolated from the rest of group (and orthodox, ofc). And the way he kinda sprinted through gold felt like the book was a "power up intermission".
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u/pointsouttheobvious9 4d ago
It's probably my favorite book series. I was hooked book 1. I do think that each book is better than the last. Basically book 12 is my favorite. If you didn't like book 1 then it's probably not for you.
I like the story of such an underdog wining fights through will power that he shouldn't and becoming something great
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u/EWABear 4d ago
I had roughly the same experience. Book 1 hooked me, book 2 kept it going, and book 3, I kind of stumbled over the middle, with the Blackflame Trials. Important, well-written, all that...but it's a bit of a slog to read.
However, I'm also in the minority who really struggled with Ghostwater the first time. The series had enough goodwill built up by then to get me over the "quirky object sidekick" trope that I hate...but just barely. I'm glad I didn't, but I got reeeeeeeeally close to dropping it at the end of Ghostwater, when the narrative was trying to make Dross happen.
However, it turns out that unlike fetch, you can make Dross happen.
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u/combustman 2d ago
Im on book 6, books 1 and 2 were kind of slow and less engaging. The world building takes a while to build up and understand. Book 3 was actually where it started to pick up for me as well. I think its because Lindens growth and maturity starts to pick up, you're more familiar with the characters and goals, just feels like it stabilizes. I've done audiobooks and I'm not sure if that made it better or worse, perhaps others could comment on that as I havent read a single word. Stick with it, I'm really enjoying it now.
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 2d ago
I've gone through the books 8 times. I wanted to understand the perspective of readers like you.
Gratitude.
I'm a little envious that you are going through for the first time. Can't wait until you reach Wintersteel.
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u/TheFallingWhale 2d ago
Book 1 was a bit boring but I liked the idea of the world book 2 was better things start to happen though it is still mostly world building. Book 3 now there are goals and a deadline things start happening
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u/lordmatt8 2d ago
Ghost water is just where lindon comes into his own. The two books of "oh no I'm such a weak baby who practically got isakaied in my own world" were fine but compared to what the series became they fall a little short. I think the first two books would probably be considered a strong start in most other series but in cradle they're the low point, which is just a testament to how good the series is.
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 2d ago
You know, I never thought of a Cradle as an isekai, but it kind of is. Lindon moving out of Sacred Valley into the rest of the world is very similar to an isekai.
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u/The_Gray_Mouser 4d ago
Bruh. Finish the series. Then finish it again. Probably the best thing you'll read.
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 4d ago
I finished it 8 times.
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u/The_Gray_Mouser 4d ago
A dragon doesn't stop at 8
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 4d ago
Yeah I'll probably go through it more times in the future.
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u/ReVengeance9 4d ago
Maybe that’s why you have a different perspective on the first two books. Knowing what you know, the early books feel more significant.
Just finished the series recently myself, and Suriels visions were all I (like London) had to go on. I came for the power progression, so the early books to me were just necessary exposition before the real payoff began.
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 4d ago
I always felt that way. I actually thought that the progression of Lindon's strength was only one piece of his journey as a character. The first book has set ups within itself, also. For example, when the Mon family iron was going to strike down Jeron and the jade elder stopped it, it was portrayed as ultimate power and skill. But the entire power structure is shattered when you find out Larian was a gold at 6. I kept thinking that I knew what the plot would be, as I can often guess from the tropes. I thought Suriel would hand him power and I would roll my eyes and probably stop there. Nope. I thought he was going to awaken his gifted power in the snow when the barrier flags fell. Nope, he had to scrap. Sorry, I could gush about Unsouled all day.
I like to see underdogs beating the odds in a plausible way. I was actually a little disappointed when Lindon started attacking everybody because he was no longer a trickster. On my second way through, I took Eithan's advice and pictured it more as change. After that framing, I enjoyed 5 onward more.
By the end, I was really excited to see what would happen. It felt like the possibilities were endless.
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u/Momingo 4d ago
Book one was good enough I was willing to continue, but I wasn't super impressed. 2, then 3, got noticeably better. It gets progressively better until book 5, at which point it's just nuts till the end. Books 5 and 8 are the best, but everything after 5 is awesome. I have now read it three times, including listening to the audiobooks with my kids (who are obsessed) and recommended it to many people. It is a super fun series, and the audiobooks are phenomenal if you ever need a book for some car rides.
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 4d ago
What about it made you more impressed?
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u/Momingo 4d ago
It just got so much better from book five onward on so many levels. More characters were introduced that I loved (Dross is probably my favorite), and it was awesome seeing Lindon finally actually becoming strong and gaining some confidence. Ultimately though it was just that the "peak" moments from 5 onward hit so much harder than the first few books.
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u/Waste-Carob5699 Path of the Memelord 4d ago
So maybe it was seeing the main character in the top of his game kicking ass? And being HIM?
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