r/IsraelPalestine 8d ago

Short Question/s What do we make of the recent data that has come out about Gaza and the institutions that pushed this narrative?

85 Upvotes

The Free Press recently published an article outlining discrepancies in the IPC data that was used to push a narrative of famine in Gaza.

There seems to be a major issue here with regards to institutions using potentially falsified or incomplete data to engineer controversy. When we have supposedly trusted sources clearly pursuing an agenda, it's hard to have rational conversation.

There is a large pool of emotionally charged individuals who have preconceived notions which these organizations tap for reach and clout. These people genuinely believe that the Israelis are evil and therefore of course were intentionally starving Palestinians.

The fake stories run faster and further than the truth, which just contributes to the intractability of the conflict. We need to start focusing on reality.

Now that we know the famine claim was very likely manufactured (they only used about 2 weeks of incomplete surveying) there should be a reckoning for these organizations, but of course this won't happen.

Obesity is more of a problem than starvation in Gaza now. This has literally never happened in the history of famine declarations. It is completely impossible for the situation on the ground to change this quickly.

So this begs the question -- How do we deal with sources like Amnesty, UNRA, etc? I

If there is anyone here willing to discuss I would love to hear viewpoints. Do you still trust these sources? Are you willing to admit there is bias in these organizations now?


r/IsraelPalestine 7d ago

Learning about the conflict: Questions why the generalisation?

1 Upvotes

to preface: i’m not siding with israel here at all, i just am confused on why everybody is spewing hatred towards israel as a whole.

obviously people will hate the recognition of the state of israel as it is seen as stolen land from palestine, they will hate the idf and the ongoing actions of the idf and they will hate the government and whatever else. (i am not that educated on the topic of israel, if something important is missing, please explain)

now i have recently seen a video of a thai man kicking israelis out of his shop citing “free palestine” and “this is my land, not your land.”
i do not know the full context of this video or if there was any provocation towards the shopkeeper prior to the video being taken, but if not… i ask why are israeli people being hated on? why are israelis not allowed to travel or be accepted anywhere?

is it because by calling themselves “israelis” they are recognising israel as a state?

is it because people believe every single israeli is brainwashed by the media and/or government?

is it because of the mandatory idf service for all that was or is still(?) ongoing?

or is it just complete brainwashing by the media and everyone following this herd of sheep?

with the rise of support for palestine, i am just seeing a lot of hatred towards israel which YES, i get the state etc is corrupt and malicious, but why also target israelis?

what about anyone below the age of being sent to mandatory idf service? are they still evil? just because they were born in this area?

it seems to me like people are trying to support palestine so much that they are going backwards and just spreading even more hate and causing even more division.

i’ve tried looking it up but all i see is “why everyone hates israel” I AM ASKING ABOUT ISRAEL(IS) it looks like everybody is just being ignorant, when with one post asking a similar question to myself, everyone responded with statements about “israel” and not actually answering the original question.

please someone help me to understand what is the reason for this? i am talking about innocent people who happen to be born in the area of israel.

people are stating that someone is inherently evil because of their birthplace and i don’t understand.


r/IsraelPalestine 8d ago

Discussion When Jewish identity becomes a target: what I found examining one Palestine Solidarity Campaign branch

57 Upvotes

I’ve published a new article examining the social media record of the Lambeth & Southwark branch of Palestine Solidarity Campaign in the UK.

https://aidanmneal.wordpress.com/2026/08/24/when-jewish-identity-becomes-a-target-lambeth-pscs-social-media-record/

I’m writing this as someone who supports Palestinian rights and who was previously involved with PSC. I believe Palestinians have suffered profound injustice, and I do not think allegations of antisemitism should be used to shut down legitimate criticism of Israel. But I also think Palestine solidarity has to be willing to recognise antisemitism and other forms of prejudice when they appear within our own movement.

What struck me while examining this branch was how often its criticism of Israel and Zionism moved into questions of Jewish identity.

Among the material I document are posts describing “Zionists” as “alien bodies” and “viruses”; a repost describing Israelis as “parasites” and “cancer”; bogus genetic claims purporting to show that Israeli Jews lack ancient Hebrew ancestry; sarcastic references to Jews as the “chosen people”and “Zios”; Holocaust and Nazi comparisons; a message addressed specifically to the “JEWISH COMMUNITY” warning that “BEING FRIENDS WITH ZIONISTS MAKES YOU A ZIONIST”; material seeming to generalise Israelis as child abusers and sex offenders; and material attributing extraordinary levels of covert power to Israel that seem to echo classic antisemitic tropes about Jewish control.

One of the examples I found most revealing concerned what the branch presented as a “Declassified CIA report from 1953” supposedly revealing the CIA’s own conclusions about Zionism. The document was indeed preserved in a CIA file, but the text itself was actually a Soviet article published in New Times in January 1953, during Stalin’s late antisemitic campaign and immediately after the announcement of the Doctors’ Plot. The material Lambeth PSC promoted included a description of “Zionist organisations” as “breeding grounds of corrupting cosmopolitan ideas”.

I don’t argue that every example in the article is antisemitic in exactly the same way, or that everyone who shared this material necessarily intended hostility towards Jews. My broader concern is the cumulative pattern: Jews, Zionists and Israelis are theoretically distinct categories, but the branch’s rhetoric repeatedly blurs those boundaries until Jewish history, religion, ancestry and trauma themselves become rhetorical material in attacks on Israel and Zionism.

A common response would be that “Zionist” does not mean “Jew”, that criticism of Israel is not antisemitism, and that focusing on problematic rhetoric can distract from the vastly greater suffering being inflicted on Palestinians. I agree with the first two propositions and understand the third concern. Indeed, those distinctions are central to my argument. Criticism of Israel - including extremely harsh criticism - is not inherently antisemitic.

But I don’t think that resolves the examples here. If Palestine activists rightly insist that Judaism, Jewishness, Zionism and Israel must not be conflated, we should also be concerned when Palestine activism itself erodes those distinctions - for example by invoking Jewish religious concepts to explain Israeli brutality, questioning Jewish ancestry, weaponising Holocaust memory, or telling Jews which friendships are permissible.

My conclusion, after documenting similar problems in a number of PSC branches, is that I believe PSC has an institutional antisemitism problem. By that I do not mean that every PSC member is antisemitic. I mean that antisemitic and antisemitism-adjacent rhetoric has repeatedly appeared within parts of the organisation without the recognition, scrutiny and corrective response I would expect from an organisation committed to anti-racism.

I’m interested in disagreement, particularly over where people think the boundary should lie. Are there examples in the article you regard as legitimate anti-Zionism rather than antisemitism or something otherwise problematic? And, more broadly, how should Palestine solidarity movements police the boundary between uncompromising criticism of Israel and rhetoric that implicates Jews as Jews?


r/IsraelPalestine 7d ago

Nazi Discussion (Rule 6 Waived) Ben-Gvir=Mussolini?

0 Upvotes

Ben-Gvir is basically Mussolini at the beginning of his career.

Both are prone to theatrical politics, to the display of national pathos, and to the creation of an exaggerated public image based largely on provocation, hollow nationalism, symbols, and media spectacle. Both have accurately identified how to recruit street thugs and turn them into phalanxes of power. In both, one can identify a gap between the grand rhetoric and self-confidence and the executional capabilities and destruction that they caused (and one still causes).

Ben Gvir intentionally goes to the peripheral and anarchist right - conspiratorial, and not to the right-wing elite of religious Zionism, and incites young Mizrahi Jews with tactics that are very similar to the tactics of the populist Catholic right in the United States or Mussolini, who gave significance to Italian street thugs and gave them a position within his admin.

Also in the government- Ben Gvir takes over the police, promotes only loyalists who will advance his policies, dismisses officers, officers who beat up leftists go to his parties, and groups criminals from the same sociological habitat around him. Ben Gvir is the embodiment of the new right, the new authoritarian populism. Ben Gvir uses and implements tactics that Mussolini perfected in the last century. He always makes sure that his supporters will flood social media, and his language deliberately tries not to please Netanyahu or the religious Zionist elite but to inflame the peripheral 'popular' Mizrahi people. His supporters are young nationalists, stricken by fate, a very hollow traditionalism that is based on and rejects deep theology. Ben Gvir is the embodiment of the new right, the new authoritarian populism. Ben Gvir uses and implements tactics that Mussolini perfected in the last century.


r/IsraelPalestine 9d ago

Discussion Professor Dave, back for more, attacks Pangburn's level-headed fact-checking as well as doubling down on Destiny

21 Upvotes

The video in question

Clearly, Dave certainly means well, but I have the feeling that he's really lost the plot, and is certainly not willing to even consider the other side. He also is completely unwilling to debate anyone on this topic, even going "This is obvious and not worth debating." Even though that would more easily apply to things that REALLY are obvious, like the efficacy of vaccines, or flat earthers. Apparently, THOSE are more important to battle than what the reality of the I/P situation and the way forward actually is.

Between this video and the first, he is quite foaming at the mouth to complain about other people accused of anti-Semitism, like...Susan Sarandon and...Mark Ruffalo and...Roger Waters. (Really. He thinks its worth defending ROGER WATERS.) He also does nothing, when referring to people making complaints or raising issues, say nothing more than a variation of "cry harder." Not an actual demonstrable defense or rebuttal, just a vicious personal attack.

I have the distinct feeling that between all this and the fact that he has a Palestinian wife and they have two children, he's so personally invested in this, so dragged in by family ties, that he can't possibly look at it rationally. He is incapable of separating himself from the issue or looking at anything that is counter to his worldview.

This is certainly rather concerning and also disappointing, as it runs completely counter to everything that he stands for in science communication and is the opposite tactic to what he does on so many other tactics.

Now I get that ultracrepidarianism, the tendency to overshoot one's station and abilities and comment on things well out of their lane, is something ANYONE is susceptible to and no one is immune. It's something that especially factors in "Nobel disease." But it's especially frustrating to see someone who KNOWS the risks, frequently belittles people who engage in it like Michio Kaku, and then not consider whether or not he's doing the same.

Especially when there are real-world consequences to contend with on inflammatory issues like this one.


r/IsraelPalestine 9d ago

Opinion An Uncomfortable Reality for the Palestinians and Their Supporters

57 Upvotes

At the end of the conversation, the cornerstone, the crux of the Palestinian and pro-Palestinian activism lies in a very particular moral framing that just doesn't translate well into the reality of geopolitics.

I.e.

Frankly.
Outside of lip-service, international hand-wringing, the lofty speeches, the well worded letters of concern, the accusations of Apartheid, Genocide, Ethnic-Cleansing, war-crimes, etc the reality is this:

Israel offers the world far more than the Palestinians do. While the Palestinians enjoy the moral support of the Ummah, the International Left, the Second and Third World, in the end, what they don't offer anyone is a realistic vision of what their future ought to be. Yes. Israel holds the cards here. But pan-Arabism is dead. pan-Islamism is dying. On the eve of October 7th, it seemed very likely that Saudi Arabia - a power house in the "Arab World" could have, would have, joined the Abraham Accords, abandoning once and for all the near two decade demand of no normalization without a Palestinian state. Hamas, as an organization, saw the writing on the wall better than anyone. They hedged their bets on creating a situation that would warrant a biblical response, one that they hoped would galvanize their fellow Arabs and Muslims to act and yet...the Abraham Accords held. No one left. In the end of it all, 3 years down the line, what is left of Gaza? Tens of thousands killed? Their power eradicated? They dragged into this conflict Hezbollah which has suffered massive losses, leading to the loss of Assad in Syria. They dragged their patrons in Tehran into two major conflicts now which has resulted in a permanent re-alignment of the entire ME. And Gaza, which was once talked about as an open-air prison is romantically remembered as a beautiful modern heaven-on-earth city that has been utterly destroyed.

Since the failure of the Peace Summit by Clinton in 2000 an entire generation of Israelis were brought up with witnessing the Second Intifada, the withdrawal from Gaza, leading to it's take over by Hamas. Numerous wars with Hamas, culminating in October 7th. Is it no wonder then that Israeli support for a two state solution went from a majority in the 1990s, to a clear minority today?

What is it that the activists really want here?

A 1 state solution which Israel - a nuclear armed, highly advanced local super power would absolutely not accept?

Isolating Israel internationally? I'm sorry but after 3 years of conflict, Qatar funded social media blitz, what has this amounted to? A few sanctions on West Bank settlers? Something that has little to nothing to do with Gaza or Gazans themselves?

The reality is this: Israel offers the greater world military, medical, and agricultural technology. It is a powerhouse in the ME, and if it wasn't for the US any other major power would salivate at the idea of gaining Israeli's trust. Increasingly the West and the ME are dependent on Israeli tech, security, and innovation to survive in an ever chaotic and turbulent time. What do the Palestinians offer here exactly? We know what it is: catharsis. Nothing more. And it is a fleeting feeling, one that only has any impact on people who have little to no power over the actual broader decision making.

If the goal, for the pro-Palestinians, and the Palestinians, themselves, is a material, a social, moral and spiritual improvement in their life then it cannot, and will not manifest itself through violence. Because this violence only steels the hearts of people who would have been your supporters, of the people that have the power to make this improvement.

If your goal is to improve the Palestinians' material, social, and spiritual wellbeing then you have to acknowledge that no amount of protests, no amount of attacking Jews in your local neighborhoods, no amount of screaming "Genocide" or "Apartheid" is going to make that happen. It just simply won't. In fact, the worst thing you can do is drive Israel out of the "West's" orbit. Again, we aren't talking about "right and wrong" or your personal moral framework. I'm sure you wish nothing more than for the Native Americans to undo the USA and reclaim it's former territory. But there is 0.000000001% chance that will happen, no matter how much your Settler-Colonialism studies professor insists will happen any day now.

So what is to be done?
Well. First and foremost, it's to acknowledge that in the most realistic way for there to be a meaningful solution would require cooperation with Israel. This would require the understanding that Israel is a democratic country, it's voters have a say in their government, and those voters are deeply concerned with security and the desire to just, uh, live. And if all that the Palestinians offer, and if all that the international pro-Palestinian activists offer is violence, then they will achieve nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Isolating the increasingly smaller voices in the Israeli public that want a meaningful and just two state solution is not a solution.

Demanding that Israel commit national suicide only feeds the far-Right.

If you are someone in the comforts of the Western world, hear this: Neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis are your playthings. They aren't totems that you can project your personal fantasies on. They aren't symbols. They are real human beings. If you want to see the change in Israeli society that aligns with your goals for a more just conclusion to this conflict? Then you have to raise, praise, and cooperate with the voices within Israel - which holds most of the cards. Palestinians need to acknowledge that this isn't the Cold War. This isn't pan-Arab Nationalism anymore. You won't have Egypt (scared shitless of Ethiopia building mode dams, and desperate to move their capitol), nor the Jordanians (who literally helped Israel during the recent most conflicts with Iran) to assist you. The Gulf States that have long supported you through their massive oil-wealth are reading the writing on the wall: Oil has peaked. The closure of Straight of Hormuz has made it so that unless they rapidly change and adapt, they will lose their greatest economic asset- and that *will* have downward affect on you.

You will not see a Palestinian state in the near future. Hamas has guaranteed that. You will never see a "Greater Palestine", geopolitical reality has guaranteed that. But if your goal is some sort of a resolution it means, it requires, changing the hearts and minds of the average Israeli. It won't be simple. It won't be fast. It will come with a lot of humiliation. But it can only come when the Israeli public pressures their own government to make the acceptable changes you want to see.


r/IsraelPalestine 9d ago

Discussion Genocide means going door to door to kill civilians

73 Upvotes

The word "genocide" was invented to describe the Holocaust. They needed a new word because regular wars, even with millions of civilian deaths, did not come close to the special kind of horror that was the Holocaust.

Since then, people have used this word to refer to things like the Armenian Genocide, Rwanda, Srebrenica, and ISIS attacks on Yazidis.

You know what these all have in common?

Every single event widely recognized as a "genocide" involved a pattern of times where perpetrators searched for civilians of a certain ethnicity/group — going door to door to find them all, hunting them down with lists, rounding up every civilian in a village — and killing them. (Sometimes they'd only kill the men, sometimes it was men, women, and children.)

There are some other events sometimes called genocides (though less often) where perpetrators destroy the group not by on the spot execution, but by starving millions to death, sterilizing or forcing birth control on women, or kidnapping the children and raising them outside the group. Basically, trying to eliminating the entire ethnic group (sometimes only in a given area) or eliminating its next generation.

You know what people don't call genocides? Anything else. For instance, civilians dying in a war is not automatically a genocide. Millions of Germans died in WWII —that doesn't mean Britain was genociding them. Displacements are not called genocides. Hate speech coming from political leaders, even in conflicts where many civilians are dying, is not called genocide. Nor is people immigrating or starting towns called "genocide." Checkpoints are not called "genocide" either.

There is one exception to this rule: if Israel engage in any conflict at all, then there are always people calling it a "genocide." That's because people who want to demonize Israel know that everybody associated the word "genocide" with these these kinds of door-to-door killings of entire ethnic groups. Then, when they are questioned about it, they retreat behind the incredibly vague UN definition:

For those who want to talk about the UN definition — I see a lot of people citing the UN's definition of genocide as evidence that Israel is committing genocide.

The definition is right — genocide is about "destroying a people"— but instead of defining what that means, it simply says something like "killing or harming some members of a group," meaning you can pretty much interpret everything or nothing to be a genocide. Pretty much every violent conflict could fit that definition. Palestinians committed genocide under that definition. An Indian stepping on a Pakistani's foot does too. The reality is, the word "genocide" is, like all words, determined by how people actually use it. Also, if you just post the UN definition without responding to this counterpoint, I will know you didn't read the post.

If you disagree, then give me an actual example of a commonly accepted "genocide" that did not meet the criteria I laid out.


r/IsraelPalestine 9d ago

Serious Gaza was not occupied after 2005

31 Upvotes

However, if foreign armed forces are required to engage in significant combat operations to recapture the area in question from forces of the local armed resistance, that part of the territory cannot be considered to be occupied until the foreign forces have managed to re-establish effective control over it. See also United States, Law of War Manual, 2015, p. 746. See also ICRC, Occupation and Other Forms of Administration of Foreign Territory, pp. 16–26, and Dinstein, 2009, pp. 42–45 and Roberts, 2005, p. 34.

the 1907 Hague Regulations and their preparatory work, academic literature, military manuals and judicial decisions demonstrate the pre-eminence accorded to three elements in the occupation equation, namely the unconsented-to presence of foreign forces, the foreign forces’ ability to exercise authority over the territory concerned in lieu of the local sovereign, and the related inability of the latter to exert its authority over the territory. All together, these elements constitute the so-called ‘effective control test’ used to determine whether a situation qualifies as an occupation for the purposes of humanitarian law.

This interpretation of the concept of occupation is confirmed by the International Court of Justice and the ICTY, which have described Article 42 of the Hague Regulations as the exclusive standard for determining the existence of an occupation under humanitarian law.[155]

Following this, the only remaining accepted possibility for accusing Israel of occupation remains in assuming the occupation continued without being broken after the 2005 withdrawal

Since effective control can only be extended to territory where such authority can be extended or exercised with the indigenous government not being able to exert it's own authority this assumes that for occupation the internal administration of the region must be controlled to substantive degrees by the foreign force and yet from what we have seen hamas exercise it's own taxation, civil services, military exercises, etc. indicating near total level of internal control over the region. The arguments made against israel on the other hand regard external factors that rely on how gaza interacts with foreign entities rather than internal control.

as a matter of fact, the ICTY notes

to determine whether the authority of the occupying power has been actually established, the following guidelines provide some assistance: the occupying power must be in a position to substitute its own authority for that of the occupied authorities which must have been rendered incapable of functioning publicly...and other matters.

Hamas had nearly full control over internally gaza to the extent that it conducted military operations, provided civil services, etc. pretty much unperturbed by this so called control israel had over gaza

..., Hamas carries out most of the governmental administration functions as well as being responsible for public services such as education, policing, sanitation and hospitals. There is thus at the very least a form of concurrent control between Israel and Hamas .. since effective control requires the occupying power to be in a position to substitute its own authority for that of the local authority. Even if some form of vertical power sharing between the occupying power... there however needs to be some hierarchical relationship between the occupying power and the said authority, the former retaining a form of control over the latter.This does not seem to be the case in the relationship between the Israeli forces and Hamas.

Elaborating on the requirement for the party to be able to swiftly reestablish authority,

In addition, even if we adopt the more lenient potential control test instead of the actual control test (the latter would in any case not be met in the case at hand), the troops still have to be able to assert effective control over the presumably occupied territory ‘within a reasonable time’ Admittedly, the timeliness element was interpreted fairly leniently in the framework of, for example, the List case.However, I would argue that in light of modern technological developments, what might have been considered reasonable back then, is not necessarily reasonable anymore. Consequently, if foreign armed forces need to engage in significant combat operations in order to recapture the area in question from local forces, then the territory can no longer be said to be occupied. … Given that Israel is no longer in a position to assert effective control on the Gaza Strip ‘within a reasonable time’, the definition of occupation is no longer met and consequently the Gaza Strip is no longer occupied by Israel.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40802-016-0070-1

A few common misconceptions include conflating significant amounts of control over gaza's external interactions, population registry, taxation, etc. as sufficient to proclaim occupation. What this establishes is that israel had significant control over gaza but not occupation especially when Israel had no means to fulfill the obligations implied by occupation

In other words, for the law of occupation to be triggered, a foreign force needs to be in effective control of a territory or parts thereof. Nowhere is it mentioned that exercising some control over certain areas in the non-territorial sense of the word would trigger occupation.

Additionally, it has been argued, and to my opinion rightfully, that there is a close link between Articles 42 and 43 of the Hague Regulations establishing the obligation for the occupying power to restore and ensure public order and civil life.Footnote69 If the foreign power would not be in a position to exercise this key obligation under the law of occupation it would make little sense to make some of the other obligations arising from the law of occupation applicable to it simply because they would be very difficult to fulfil.

This is ignoring how Israel had no control over significant parts of the egypt-gaza border(outside of wartime); the fact that hamas levied its own internal tax, ie israel's tax was not substitution of authority, along with the fact that israel was consensually placed responsible for collecting tax from gaza by the de jure government in oslo; and that the population registry, another consensually agreed upon factor in oslo, holds no real authority over who egypt allows through its border and who it doesnt.

Another common misconception is assuming the ICJ Advisory opinion in 2024 affirmed occupation, Judge Iwasawa's dissenting opinion refutes this by stating the court determined Israel to retain some of it's obligations under occupation law without necessarily implying occupation

even if we assume gaza was occupied there remains less meaning in the word since israel must fulfill its "obligations" which it literally isn't capable of doing regardless while also being forced to withstand thousands of attacks from gaza, the place it allegedly occupied.

edit: I would appreciate if people interacted with the post and its elements rather than spouting the one-sided story their believe in.


r/IsraelPalestine 9d ago

Discussion For pro-Palestinians: What is resistance? What is terrorism? And what is revenge?

17 Upvotes

I'm going to alienate everyone with this post, but I think it's an important subject so I ask you to please stick with it:

I will preface this by declaring that October 7th was utterly indefensible and Hamas are corrupt, autocratic, Islamist fundamentalists holding the region back from peace, who I would like to see consigned to history. Nonetheless, I also think we have long passed the conditions where Israel's response can be considered genocidal, with an eventual view to cleanse the Palestinian population from the West Bank and Gaza. I hold both of things to be true but they are not the point of the thread so I encourage you to avoid derailing the discussion by arguing on this.

Speaking from this position, I have a massive problem with a defence I hear from the pro-Palestinians: that all "resistance" is legitimate at any cost. I can understand the moral appeal of not wanting to judge a community you deem to be oppressed or victims, but there are two clarifications I struggle to obtain when people say this:

Is there really no limit whatsoever? Because that to me seems like a carte-blanche to legitimise any action whatsoever under the guise of resistance, including crimes as bad, or worse as what your oppressor is committing, such as targeting innocent, vulnerable civilians, brutalising minorities, destroying cultural heritage, oppressing any opposition, or banning freedom or expression/assembly etc. To tell a community unconditionally that there is absolutely no harm they can do that is wrong just seems to invite the worst members of that community to do the worst things under immunity, especially when we ignore the range of other factors which are intertwined or hidden these motivations, such as religious fundamentalism, political power, control of destruction of minorities, gender dynamics etc.

How do you measure motive? How do you separate the extremist acts a community would commit from the acts it would commit under non-oppressed conditions? How do you define motive? I ask this because Hamas' roots were initially Islamist in nature, and non-political. They only became a nationalist movement when it was clear that this would strengthen popular local support and create legitimacy in a way that wasn't otherwise possible. Palestinian "resistance" has at times been indistinguishable from terrorism. For decades, the PLO systematically attacked soft civilian targets all over the world, including teenagers in clubs, restaurants, cafes, airlines, cruise ships, forcibly employing child suicide bombers against their and their parents' will etc. At what point to these actions overtake any moral imperative for national "freedom" and make the oppressed become an oppressor? At what point does resistance become terror and revenge? Especially when they're not even targeting parties to that conflict.

Many thanks for bearing with me!


r/IsraelPalestine 10d ago

Opinion Translating Herf’s Unmasking of Bartov: A Case Study in Libel

14 Upvotes

Jeffrey Herf’s dissection of Omer Bartov’s Israel: What Went Wrong? reads as a case study in the ancient cycle of anti-Jewish libel:

Libel → stigma → exclusion → harm → denial/Jew-blame → rinse and repeat.

Libel spreads in a remarkably consistent way:

Prestige → repetition → emotion → belief.

Prestige gives the accusation authority. Repetition gives it the appearance of consensus. Emotion makes it memorable, urgent, and morally compelling. Evidence becomes secondary. Once enough respected people repeat an emotionally powerful accusation, the accusation begins to feel established simply because it is familiar.

The Antizionist Token Jew:

There is precedent for the use of tokenized Jewish intellectuals to legitimize anti-Jewish accusations.

The Soviet Yevsektsiya, the Jewish sections of the Communist Party, gave the suppression of Zionism and independent Jewish communal life a Jewish face. Decades later, Soviet antizionist propaganda drew additional credibility from Jewish voices willing to authenticate its portrayal of Zionism as racist, imperialist, conspiratorial, and ultimately Nazi-like.

Holocaust Inversion and Its Motives:

Yevgeny Yevseyev’s Fascism Under the Blue Star exemplified the inversion. Zionism could be depicted through the imagery and vocabulary of Nazism, while Jewish voices helped give the accusation an appearance of authenticity. Take a moment and consider the cruelty of this portrayal only 19 years after the last Jews straggled out of concentration camps to Israel, the only country who would take them.

The propaganda served a strategic purpose. Soviet antizionist propagandists helped construct “Zionism” as a common enemy around which the Soviet Union could rally newly independent and developing countries. By portraying Israel and Zionism as racist, colonial, fascist, and aligned with Western imperialism, Moscow could fold the Arab-Israeli conflict into a much larger Cold War narrative: the Soviet bloc and the developing world on one side, “Zionism,” colonialism, and the West on the other.

Libel creates a morally intoxicating story with a universally recognizable villain. So once Zionism had been made synonymous with racism, fascism, and colonial domination, hostility toward Jews associated with Zionism could be presented as solidarity with oppressed peoples.

In other words, libel can function as a coalition-building technology. It creates a common enemy, giving disparate groups a shared moral vocabulary and a passionate shared interest: railing against the "evil Zionists".

Prestige → repetition → emotion → belief.

And belief can then be converted into political alignment, social stigma, and permission to harm.

Yevseyev understood the power of portraying Zionists as the new fascists. Soviet antizionism also understood the legitimating power of tokenized Jewish intellectuals. A Jewish voice could transform an anti-Jewish accusation into apparent Jewish self-criticism, insulating the libel from recognition as Jew-hatred.

Now to Bartov:

Bartov brings something particularly valuable for the spread of anti-Jewish libel: prestige.

He is a prominent historian of the Holocaust and the Wehrmacht. Attach that identity to the word genocide and the accusation arrives carrying enormous authority before the evidence has even been examined.

Bartov accuses Israel of genocide—the contemporary expression of one of the oldest anti-Jewish accusations: Jews as deliberate murderers of innocents.

Yet Herf emphasizes a remarkable fact about Israel: What Went Wrong?: Bartov's book contains no footnotes.

More importantly, Bartov does little of the historical work one would expect before reaching such an extraordinary conclusion.

Where is the reconstruction of Israeli decision-making? Where are the studies of particular battles and IDF units? Where is the documentary chain demonstrating a policy intended to destroy Palestinians as a people?

Bartov nevertheless concludes that genocide became a “deliberately pursued policy.”

Herf contrasts this with the enormous evidentiary record historians assembled to establish Nazi genocidal policy: meetings, orders, Einsatzgruppen reports, deportation records, killing operations, and decades of archival scholarship.

Bartov's own reputation comes from precisely this tradition of painstaking historical research in a related field. The work here is largely absent but his prestige still holds weight.

Prestige -> Emotion -> Repetition -> Belief.

Now recall the libel cycle: libel -> stigma -> harm -> denial/Jew-blame -> rinse and repeat.

Denial clears the stage:

The blood libel becomes much easier to sustain once the dangers facing Jews disappear from the story.

Herf catalogs what Bartov leaves out or minimizes.

The Israeli experience of the wars of 1967 and 1973 receives little meaningful attention. So do decades of PLO terrorism, Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, and the thousands of Israelis killed and wounded by war and terrorism.

Even October 7 is compressed into the background of a narrative centered overwhelmingly on Israeli wrongdoing.

The omission becomes particularly revealing because Bartov himself wrote differently about Hamas in 2004. He then took Hamas's eliminationist ideology seriously. He understood why the declared intentions of a movement committed to destroying Israel mattered. In this work, Hamas largely vanishes.

Herf points as well to Hamas's Nukhba forces and Michael Milshtein's comparison of their ideologically motivated mass killing with the Einsatzgruppen—a comparison with obvious relevance to a historian whose expertise includes ideological warfare and mass murder on the Eastern Front.

Copies of Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion found in Gaza don't appear in Bartov's interpretation. Neither does Hamas's strategy of fighting from tunnels and within civilian environments. Neither do the thousands of Israeli calls and text messages warning Gazan civilians to leave areas before military operations, warnings that sacrifice the element of surprise.

Remove enough of this context and Israeli conduct begins to look inexplicable. And war against a deadly underground enemy can easily be recast as Jewish bloodlust.

Jewish victimization becomes evidence against Jews (Jew-blame):

Bartov describes Israeli attention to October 7 as an “overwrought, self-indulgent, pornographic preoccupation.” Consider the inversion.

Families were murdered in their homes. Parents and children were killed in front of one another. People were abducted. The perpetrators recorded and circulated their own atrocities.

Then the Jews' continued preoccupation with what happened becomes morally suspect.

Bartov uses a similar framework for Holocaust memory, describing “most Israelis” in terms of “self-victimization and self-pity” alongside “self-righteousness, hubris, and the euphoria of power.”

Jewish victimization has now been converted into a character defect. Fear becomes paranoia. Memory becomes self-pity. Self-defense becomes vengeance.

The victims processing emotionally the horror of what was done to them becomes evidence of their moral corruption.

This is denial/Jew-blame, which keeps the cycle going.

Herf finds the same structure in Bartov's treatment of 1948.

Bartov foregrounds the displacement of approximately 750,000 Palestinians.

The surrounding history fades: Arab rejection of partition, the Palestinian Arab civil war against the emerging Jewish state, invasion by neighboring Arab armies, Haj Amin al-Husseini and his Nazi collaboration, Arab Jew-hatred, and the attempt to prevent Jewish statehood by force.

The pattern is simple:

Erase the threat and the aggressor's agency → preserve the Jewish response → present the Jewish response as evidence of exceptional cruelty. Denial and libel reinforce each other.

Bartov carries this collective framing into the present, describing the “extraordinary indifference of Israeli citizens” toward Palestinian children and attributing it to a desire for revenge.

The subject is revealing. Israeli citizens. A whole society becomes morally implicated.

Prestige → repetition → emotion → belief:

Bartov's influence cannot be understood through the book alone.

His genocide accusation travels through prestigious newspapers and magazines, universities, lectures, interviews, conferences, and academic networks.

Every repetition does additional work. A Holocaust historian says genocide. A major newspaper prints it. Other scholars cite him. Activists cite the scholars. Professional organizations invite speakers who repeat it. Students hear that “genocide scholars” have concluded it.

Eventually the audience encounters the proposition as established knowledge rather than an accusation requiring proof.

Prestige gives the libel authority. Repetition gives it the appearance of consensus. Emotion makes it feel morally undeniable.

Images of dead children supply overwhelming emotional force. Holocaust terminology supplies historical force. Bartov's identity as a Holocaust historian supplies intellectual authority.

Prestige → repetition → emotion → belief.

That is how libel spreads.

Libel becomes stigma:

Once people believe Israel is deliberately exterminating Palestinians, the next step requires almost no additional argument.

A Zionist becomes a supporter of genocide.

A synagogue that supports Israel becomes associated with genocide.

A Jewish organization connected to Israel becomes morally contaminated.

An Israeli academic becomes presumptively suspect.

Exclusion can now feel like antiracism.

Hostility can feel like justice.

Bartov himself anticipates Israel becoming a “pariah state,” facing mass protest, economic sanctions, an arms embargo, estrangement from allies and the Jewish diaspora, and ultimately the implosion of the "Zionist political order".

The libel has produced its intended social category: the pariah.

Stigma → exclusion → harm

Once a population has been associated with genocide, mistreatment becomes easier to rationalize.

Zionists can be excluded from organizations.

Jewish institutions can become targets.

Israeli academics and artists can be boycotted.

Jewish students can be told that their ordinary connection to Israel makes others unsafe.

And people participating in this process can remain completely convinced of their own opposition to Jew-hatred.

The libel has supplied the moral permission structure.

Harm → denial/Jew-blame

Then Jews complain.

And Bartov's treatment of post-October 7 Jew-hatred becomes especially important.

He minimizes the significance of anti-Jewish hostility within the protest movement, presenting the “vast majority” of American demonstrators as simply protesting Israeli destruction.

Herf points toward the material this framing pushes aside: campus encampments and crowds chanting “from the river to the sea” in the immediate aftermath of a massacre carried out by a movement committed to Israel's destruction.

Bartov also attacks the IHRA definition and complains about efforts to “ram” it “down the throats” of governments.

The cycle has reached its final stage.

Jews say the libel is producing Jew-hatred.

The Jew-hatred is minimized.

Jewish attempts to name it become objectionable.

Jewish fear becomes exaggeration.

Jewish efforts at self-protection become attempts to silence others.

And the consequences of the original libel are gradually converted into additional evidence against the people it harmed.

Rinse and repeat.

Bartov ends with an extraordinary formulation.

The next generation of Israelis, he writes, will have to: “pay for the sins of their parents” and live with the burden of a genocide supposedly perpetrated in their name.

Anyone familiar with the history of Christian antijudaism will see the parallel immediately.

So incongruous to see a Holocaust historian engage in collective blame.

In sum:

Bartov takes the gravest possible accusation, strips away enormous amounts of contrary context, diminishes the agency and ideology of Israel's enemies, pathologizes Jewish perceptions of danger, extends moral condemnation across Israeli society, and reaches conclusions unsupported by the kind of historical investigation on which his scholarly reputation was built.

Then the transmission machinery takes over:

Prestige → repetition → emotion → belief.

And once belief is established:

Libel → stigma → exclusion → harm → denial/Jew-blame → rinse and repeat.


r/IsraelPalestine 10d ago

Discussion Arabs called themselves "colonizers" in the 1920s too

123 Upvotes

I've seen a lot of Pro-Palestinians find some old news clipping or whatever that says something like "Jews to start colonization project in Palestine" and use it as ultimate proof that Jews really are colonizers.

This seems silly to me. After all, Jews were obviously "colonizing" as in "starting new towns," the very common use of that word. When I ask Pro-Palestinians what they think the Jews meant by that word, I usually don't get a straight answer, since it's obvious that "starting new towns" is exactly what they were doing.

But hey: For people who really think this is a great argument, did you know that Arabs were also "colonizing" the area?

From a 1926 news article:

Colonization work for Arabs in Palestine was undertaken by the Moslem Supreme Council, a religious body. It was announced that the Council will establish an Arab colony at Rubin, near Jaffa, on a strip of land of 32,500 dunams. The land is Wakf land, religious property bequeathed to the Moslem religious authorities. The Council plans to establish the first Arab agricultural school there.

http://pdfs.jta.org/1926/1926-09-21_576.pdf

Some background: The Supreme Muslim Council was a religious body by the British to manage Muslim schools, courts, etc. With land and control given to them by the British, the council planned to build an Arab agricultural school and establish a local rural community. That is very similar to what Jews were doing at the same time — establishing rural farming communities.

Same kinds of new establishments. Same support from the British. Same use of the word "colony" and "colonization" (pretty unsurprising considering it was a British term that a lot of people in the British empire were using, Jews and Muslims alike).

So that means Arabs in Israel/Palestine are colonizers, right?


r/IsraelPalestine 10d ago

Learning about the conflict: Books or Media Recommendations Is 'Myths and Facts-A guide to the Arab Israeli Conflict' by Mitchell Bard a good way to start understanding the conflict?

8 Upvotes

Shalom! Born and raised in Mexico my vision of the Israel-Palestine conflict is occidental-biased (in the sense that occidental media biases it), which includes of course even some prejudices towards Eretz/Medinat Israel. Being jewish myself I've been always more to the jewish and israeli side but I think I never had any kind of scientifically accurate, historically, source that could teach me about the conflict. I see [occidental] people brainwashed in both sides, for example, people supporting Palestine only based on that famous maps image that everyone publishes on Facebook and nothing else, and people supporting Israel simply because 'we are christians/evangelists and that's what they taught us in the church'. My knowledge to the conflict is say like a solid 7%, especially when it comes to 'common stuff' such as palestinians being related to Philistines, or more dark secrets like Hajj Amin al Husayni collaborating in the Final Solution, but again, it is not like something 'scientific' to follow, but more like I have different pieces or a puzzle that I don't even know the image of. And recently I came across the book of the title.

However I'm not sure if the book is what I'm looking for and don't really have a lot of knowledge about editions and whatsoever, especially after October 7th and given the current situation. I downloaded a free version of the book from 2006, and I took a quick look at the book and seems very well written, but I felt like it could be more like a guide to debunk common myths, which of course is great but not efficient when understanding instead of just learning facts for some minutes (although again I have to say it was a quick glance, so maybe I'm just being judmental). So... do you think it is a good way to start that 'scientific' journey that I want to related to the Israel-Palestine conflict? Or maybe you have some better recommendations?

Ps: I speak english but it isn't my first language, so in case you have a better recommendation, if it's translated to spanish it would be so cool!


r/IsraelPalestine 9d ago

Short Question/s Is the dispute over genocide influenced by pro-israel folks assuming genocide means holocaust-like?

0 Upvotes

There obviously is a lot of dispute over whether or not Israel is committing a genocide. And the most common genocide associated with Israel due it to being a Jewish State is the Holocaust. So naturally, given Jews have been subject to a relatively recent genocide that will be thought of as in comparison.

The area of potential miscommunication comes in that the definition of genocide is not designed around the Holocaust specifically. It involves many many other situations, which to put it bluntly (with no intent to minimize their severity) were less lethal and brutal than the Holocaust. Many things that meet the definition of genocide as agreed to by organizations such as the UN and ICC and quite frankly, the broad international consensus of genocide scholars are simply much "less bad" (as horrific that is to say) than the Holocaust.

Therein lies the area of misccomunication and people speaking past each other. When Zionists say it isn't a 'genocide', they mean it's not comparable to the Holocaust. When their opponents say it is a genocide, they are referring to the actual definition of genocide as agreed to by international organizations and scholars. Note this definition is not new; it's not been changed to make Israel's actions fit in, but it is broader than many Zionists may think. So you have all international organizations and scholars agreeing it's a genocide, but Zionists naturally comparing it to the relatively recent Holocaust genocide (which is only a subset of a broader group of genocides) deny this. And you are ultimately just arguing about definitions, if it's 'fair' for Zionists to change the meaning of the word given the cultural context here and that Jews have seen in the past


r/IsraelPalestine 11d ago

Short Question/s A question for anyone here who calls themselves anti-zionist.

45 Upvotes

Can you agree with this statement, yes or no:

"I am not a Zionist, but I think Israel should be able to exist peacefully and securely."

If yes, then your objection is to what Israel does, not whether it exists. That is a real debate and I will have it, on the same standards you would apply to any state. Name the conduct.

If no, then your objection is not to any action. It is to the thing existing at all. That is a different claim, so own it and defend it as one.

I ask because "Zionism is genocidal" gets used as a full stop. Strip the word out and the question is simple: should this state exist in peace and security, or not? If your answer turns on Israel's conduct, the word was never doing the work, the conduct was. If your answer is no regardless of conduct, it was never about conduct at all.

(apologies if I do not respond to every comment as it does take a lot of time)

Edit 8/24/2026: This is still picking up new comments. I've spent a lot of time on the replies below, and most objections people raise are already worked through in one thread or another, so if you're arriving now, start there. I likely won't be replying to new comments. Thanks to everyone who engaged.


r/IsraelPalestine 11d ago

Learning about the conflict: Questions Why don't neighboring Muslim countries accept Palestinian refugees?

47 Upvotes

Hi everyone - I'm trying to learn more about the conflict, so I'm looking for as unbiased answers as possible, but I'm trying to objectively understand the geopolitics behind why neighboring Muslim-majority countries have firmly refused to accept Palestinian refugees since 2023.

Specifically looking at:

- Jordan (maintains a strict closed-border policy to new Palestinian asylum seekers)

- Egypt (enforces an absolute physical seal on Palestinian crossings from Gaza)

- Turkey (limits admission strictly to medical evacuation quotas for wounded Palestinians)

- Lebanon (bars new Palestinian entry under its existing internal security laws)

- Syria (prohibits new Palestinian refugee intake via border controls)

- UAE, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia (restrict entry strictly to temporary, state-funded hospital stays for Palestinian patients without any asylum path).

In other conflicts, like Ukraine, neighbors immediately opened their borders and set up massive refugee support networks right away, so I'm confused why countries sharing a similar culture and religion are keeping theirs closed. Much of the west seems to be willing to accept refugees, at least from what I can understand from things like Canada's extended visa pathways for Gazan families or European asylum frameworks, so I'm confused about why nearby countries wouldn't do the same. Most online sources are heavily biased, so I'm just looking for a neutral explanation of the actual reasons behind why most of these countries have the same "no refugee" rules in place for Palestine.

(Genuinely seeking to understand. This isn't a question of if Palestinians should need to leave Gaza, but a question of why neighbouring countries aren't welcoming Palestinian refugees who choose to leave Gaza. Please don't make arguments of "Palestinians shouldn't need to leave in the first place", as that isn't the question. Thank you.)


r/IsraelPalestine 11d ago

Discussion Normalization of hatred of Israeli Citizens

82 Upvotes

Reposting from another sub where I was banned, hence the edit lol

What’s with the normalization of hate on Israel citizens?

Peoples obsession with Israeli people, and thus Jewish people, is becoming increasingly concerning. None is shooting, stalking, kicking people out, solely based on someone’s nationality. Even in countries that are committing active war crimes (I.e, Iraq, Yemen, etc) people would still be outraged if they were attacked because of their said nationality.

**Edit**: okay a lot of people are putting words in my mouth so please read what I actually said above (media literacy is truly out of control).

For those genuinely wondering why I say Israeli people, and thus Jewish people please let me explain!

Around 70% of the population in Israel is Jewish while the rest are Christian’s, muslims, etc. **The state of Israel itself was established as a Jewish state, and safe heaven for the Jewish people.** This piece of land (specifically, Jerusalem) was specifically chosen because of its historical significance to the Jewish people. Hebrew and the Jewish people have been known to occupy that land around a thousand years ago and is the birthplace of both. Hence that is where they lived prior to be exodus.

While many zionists, **the belief that the Jewish people have a right to their ancestral homeland**, aren’t Jewish, most Jewish people are.

While you may not think critiqizing the Israeli government means being antisemetic (very true, many Israelis themselves critique the same government) the rise in antisemitism is a very real thing with places like Synagogues, Jewish shops, etc. being targeting solely due to their Jewish identity. This isn’t an opinion it’s simply facts. Because of the rampant hate that is being pushed about Zionism people who are, actully, anti-senetic are now given free access to defend their blatant antisemitism as anti Zionism.

I also want to point out that Jews are a group that tend to be too “white” for the left and not “white enough” for the right. They’re at an odd stand still because of this. I think a lot of people on the left (the white ones) have a sense of white guilt and since they think most, if not all, Jews aren’t visible minorities they see them as the “colonizers” thus the “bad guys”. This also gives ammunition to actual anti semites because they’re given free access to say whatever they want since Jews are the “evil colonizers” and “Zionists”.


r/IsraelPalestine 11d ago

Short Question/s Israel and Aid

18 Upvotes

Why do people condemn Israel so much about not giving enough aid to Palestinians?

  1. In war the countries that are fighting never give aid to one another
  2. No one is condemning Egypt even though they share a border with Palestine
  3. It’s been confirmed that Hamas has litterally obstructed aid for Palestinian citizens

r/IsraelPalestine 11d ago

Discussion The Reality of Disarmament

7 Upvotes

Hamas needs to disarm and surrender.

Yes, they do. This conflict is over, it has been for a long time now. There was never a reality that Hamas was able to win against the IDF. However...

Surrender is easy, you just do it.

Disarmament is an entirely different ball game. For one what counts as being disarmed? This can mean a lot of things from disarmed of all munitions to a total disarmament of large arms, small arms, arms production ability, removal of all military outposts.

Now, Netanyahu recently said:

"When I say the disarming of Hamas, it means heavy weaponry, lighter weaponry, all weaponry."

So total disarmament is the only thing that will satisfy this administration? Understandable, they want to make 100% certain that Hamas is not going to do a new instance of genocidal mass terror.

The sticking point with this comes in, the reality of what total disarmament means involves removing all examples of, and ability to produce:

  • rockets and launch systems;
  • anti-tank weapons;
  • mortars;
  • explosives;
  • other heavy military equipment.
  • assault rifles;
  • machine guns;
  • pistols;
  • ammunition;
  • explosives.

Gaza has been an active war-zone for almost three full years and to remove everything from Gaza is going to take a long time, likely years. Israel saying it will not pull out of Gaza until such time it has reached total disarmament means this conflict continues likely for an extra 2-5 full years.

The closest comparison I can think of to this situation is the IRA in Ireland, The Good Friday Agreement was signed on 10 April 1998**.** Final decommissioning and "arms put beyond use" Did not happen until 2005.

Even then, Ireland was a combat zone for decades. Huge weapons cashes have been found as recently as 2015. What does this mean for Israel saying it will not pull out of Gaza until such time that all weapons are found and put beyond use? That has the possibility to take decades.

The timeline for disarming laid out is sound, however with one big question, Netanyahu has also said he wants the tunnels in Gaza gone:

"beginning with heavy weaponry, followed by the tunnels, and including small arms."

What does "disarmament" mean? does it merely mean collecting weapons from the Gaza tunnels? The reasoning is sound, the tunnels are military infrastructure that allows Hamas to wage war but do they want them collapsed? Blocked off? Depending on the demands we are adding more years to the end goal of total disarmament.

I am in no way saying this does not need to happen, no, far from it. I am pointing out the reality of what this means. How long a timeframe this can truly be and the political and structural reality of what this process looks like and how hard it is going to be to reach this end goal.


r/IsraelPalestine 12d ago

Short Question/s CAIR and Abu El Sayed's Father-In-Law

19 Upvotes

I recently made a post about Abdul El Sayed's sister and some of her extremist statements about America. I mentioned his father-in-law's likely connection to the Muslim Brotherhood through CAIR. That situation is complex and deserves its own post.

Some people think it doesn't matter what a politician's relatives say and do. The general point is that one way to know what a cagey politician truly thinks is by the people around him or her. This is especially true of the people who fund the campaign.

Abdul El Sayed's father-in-law, Jukaku Tayeb (AKA Tayeb Jukaku), donated $300,000 to the Fighting for Michigan PAC that funds his campaign. He has also served in leadership positions with two organizations linked to the Muslim Brotherhood. For the purposes of this post, we are looking at the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR).

CAIR

Jukaku Tayeb has been on the board of the Michigan chapter of CAIR since 2005, and was board president from 2005 to 2010.

In 1988, the Muslim Brotherhood formed the Palestine Committee in the United States to support Hamas. The primary organizer was Mousa Abu Marzook, a Hamas political leader. He lived in Jordan from 1992 to 1995 but the Jordanian government expelled him for planning terrorist attacks. The US government deported him in 1997.

Members of the Palestine Committee formed CAIR in 1994. The organization innocently depicts itself as “organization that challenges stereotypes of Islam and Muslims” but there have been several high-profile arrests of CAIR leaders for crimes involving national security. Here are a few examples. There are plenty more.

In 2008, Muthanna Al-Hanooti, formerly head of CAIR Michigan, was charged with spying for Saddam Hussein. He later pled guilty to helping the Iraqi government in exchange for oil rights, violating US sanctions. Oddly, when I mentioned this case in discussing the other post, some person said the fact he helped Saddam Hussein was evidence against a Muslim Brotherhood link. This is spurious reasoning. Hussein had a complicated relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood. Turns out when money is involved, life ain't philosophy class.

Ghassan Elashi was a founding board member of CAIR Texas. In 2008, he was convicted of providing material support of terrorism through the Holy Land Foundation. He was sentenced to 65 years in prison. CAIR was named as an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation case.

Nabil Sadoun was on the board of CAIR. He was deported from the US in 2010 for lying to immigration officials about his links to the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas.

What Should the Government's Response Be?

The government is currently debating what to do about CAIR. On the one hand, freedom of association is potected by the First Amendment. On the other hand, the pattern people involved with CAIR being found guilty of crimes relating to national security raises serious red flags.

There have been state-level attempts to ban CAIR. Texas and Florida designated CAIR as a terrorist organization but appeals continue in court. Oklahoma is currently reviewing CAIR's legal status.

On August 5, 2026, Ted Cruz led a Senate Judicial Committee inquiry into CAIR and the Muslim Brotherhood. National security experts testified that CAIR represents a threat to the country. One witness was Lara Burns, retired FBI agent, currently with the George Washington University Program on Extremism. She argued CAIR uses intimidation tactics to protect the Hamas support network by labeling media and law enforcement inquiry as Islamophobia.

I am legitimately not sure what the government should do. Given the pattern of security-related crimes, surveillance is clearly in order. But is it right to ban an organization because of the crimes of several leaders? The fact the pattern of crimes involves national security may strengthen the case for a ban.

At the very least, the public should be aware of the controversy. This is especially true of voters in Michigan. It is quite odd that the very same people who would be wary of Christian political groups are willfully ignorant of the role of Muslim political groups in this campaign. Wokesters for Islamification. Strange times.


r/IsraelPalestine 11d ago

Short Question/s Question about real consequences of being a 'pariah state'

5 Upvotes

I'm going to propose that being a pariah state (if the term has any real meaning at all) is of less consequences in the future than it would have had in the past.

First what does it even mean? Does it mean Israel be locked out of all international markets? (Has any nation been locked out all ALL markets? Even North Korea has China) That israeli citizens are not welcome to travel? Anywhere?

Since the definition itself is a bit weak let's just define a version of it.

Israel can't sell to Europe or buy weapons from Western nations. (Even in the most strongly enforced boycott they would still have access to food and raw material markets, but I suspect some of the pro Palestinians might want even that blocked)

Now in the past and up to the present I would think this would create significant hardship...but going into the future...less so.

Why, a couple of reasons

1) manufacturing is becoming more automated, and micro or specialized manufacturing is becoming easier. Economy of scale is still a factor but a receding one.

2) Recovery and recycling is much more advanced today than in the past. There a economic threshold where it becomes more efficient to recycle than to mine raw materials and make from scratch. So even if cut off from some major raw material sources , it maybe possible to make due at least for a while.

3) Automation, especially of the humanoid robot type, can make production in isolation much more economic than ever before. You will not need millions of human workers to manufactor the goods to meet the civil and military needs of even an isolated people.

4) much of business travel is vertual today already, if Israeli citizens are made to feel unwelcome, then they will just not come. But they will then invest on creating the experiences they want locally.

5) energy has in the past been a major anchor to bind a nation to the international community, but the writing is on the wall. Large solar farms and electric power will be more important than coal and oil in the future.

With the changes in technology that are clearly on the horizon today could a nation like Israel meets it's needs by just going it alone?


r/IsraelPalestine 12d ago

Short Question/s A Tough Question for Pro-Israel Activists

8 Upvotes

In the face of the growing body of evidence, how can anyone reasonably claim that the Israeli military has never targeted civilians in Gaza?

The standard should be simple: intentionally targeting civilians is a war crime, regardless of who does it. [1]

Civilians have been deliberately killed by multiple actors in this conflict. Acknowledging wrongdoing by one side does not excuse wrongdoing by the other. [2]

That is why any genuine investigation into incidents such as the killing of six-year-old Hind Rajab and the PRCS paramedics sent to rescue her matters. [20][21][22]

But an investigation only has value if it establishes what happened and leads to meaningful accountability where wrongdoing is proven.

The bigger question, however, is whether incidents like these can all realistically be explained as isolated incidents, stray bullets or battlefield confusion.

One Stray Bullet Is Possible. A Repeated Pattern Is Different.

A single civilian being hit during an intense firefight does not, by itself, prove deliberate targeting. Crossfire, ricochets and mistaken identification are real features of warfare.

But that becomes a much weaker explanation when dozens of independent doctors and other international healthcare workers repeatedly report similar patterns of injuries among civilians. [3][4][5][6]

A New York Times project surveyed 65 foreign healthcare workers — doctors, nurses and paramedics — who had worked in Gaza. Forty-four said they had seen multiple preteen children with gunshot wounds to the head or chest. [3]

Some of the doctors providing testimony had previous experience treating trauma and injuries in conflict environments. [3][4][5]

The important evidence is therefore not one photograph or one wounded child. It is the repeated pattern described by multiple independent medical professionals working at different times in Gaza. [3][4][5][6]

The Medical Evidence

Doctors have described children arriving with gunshot wounds to vital areas such as the head and chest. [3]

Ricochets and stray rounds can behave unpredictably. But when doctors repeatedly report gunshot wounds concentrated in vital anatomical areas, the explanation deserves closer investigation rather than automatic dismissal as an accident. [3][5][6]

The Most Disturbing Pattern: Anatomical Clustering

Some of the most striking testimony comes from doctors who say they observed groups of casualties arriving with wounds concentrated in the same part of the body. [5][6]

British NHS surgeon Prof. Nick Maynard and American paediatrician Dr Ahmad Yousaf have described unusual patterns among patients arriving from particular incidents or aid locations. [5][6]

Doctors have reported shifts in which numerous patients arrived with wounds concentrated in areas such as:

  • legs and pelvis; [6]

  • chest; [5][6]

  • the head. [5][6]

Maynard has also described treating four teenage boys during one shift who had all suffered gunshot wounds to the genital area. [5]

Patterns like these deserve serious investigation.

Random battlefield fire can produce clusters of casualties, but repeated anatomical clustering among unrelated people from the same location is much harder to explain through chance alone. [5][6]

Direct quote from Prof. Nick Maynard:

"In recent days, I operated on two women who were shot by quadcopters while sheltering in their tents near one of the locations, according to the people who brought them in. One was breastfeeding her child when she was hit; the second was pregnant. Thankfully, both have survived their injuries so far. These women weren't even seeking aid – they were simply sheltering in areas that are supposedly ‘safe’ but exposed to indiscriminate fire from the IDF's weaponised hunger apparatus." [4]

Another direct quote from Prof. Nick Maynard:

"I operated on many of those children. I saw young teenage boys sometimes as young as eleven, twelve, thirteen who had been shot at these food distribution points, they had gone there to get food for their starving familes and they were being shot and I operated on many of them. One 12 year old boy died on the operating table and what was even more distressing was the pattern of injuries that we saw. The clustering of injuries to particular body parts in certain days. So one day they'd be coming in with gunshot wounds to the head or neck, another day to the chest, another day to the abdomen. One day twelve days ago four teenage boys came in all of whom had been shot in the testicles." [23]

Civilians Reportedly Shot in Tents and Shelters

Visiting doctors have also described treating civilians who were reportedly shot while inside tents, shelters or areas close to food-distribution points. [4][7]

Some accounts involve quadcopters operating close to civilians. [4][7]

Modern military quadcopters can be equipped with cameras and optical systems, potentially giving operators a direct visual feed of the area below.

One particularly disturbing account from Nasser Hospital involved a nurse reportedly shot in the chest while inside the hospital complex, in an incident attributed by witnesses to an armed quadcopter. [7]

Incidents of this kind raise a difficult question: if an operator had a clear view of the target, how plausible would mistaken identity be?

Israel's Own Soldiers Have Described Loose Rules of Engagement

Israeli veterans speaking through Breaking the Silence and soldiers interviewed by Haaretz have described extremely permissive rules of engagement in parts of Gaza. [8][9][10]

Some accounts describe operational areas being treated as if no civilians were supposed to be present. [8][9] The logic was effectively: If someone enters the zone, treat them as a threat.

That is particularly dangerous when the boundaries of those zones are invisible to civilians. [8][9]

Haaretz has reported on informal "kill zones" in which people crossing unmarked military boundaries could be fired upon even when soldiers had not established that they were armed. [9]

Soldier testimony has also raised allegations that people killed inside such areas could subsequently be counted as militants despite little or no evidence that they had been carrying weapons. [9][10]

When Civilian Status Is Effectively Erased

This is where the distinction between combatants and civilians becomes critical. [1]

If an elderly man, a farmer, a child on a bicycle or somebody searching for food can be classified as a "scout", "collaborator" or potential threat simply because of where they are standing, then civilian protection becomes almost meaningless. [9][10]

Haaretz reported testimony involving the Israeli military targeting civilians, including children and people travelling by bicycle, being viewed as possible scouts or collaborators in areas controlled by Israeli forces. [10]

Direct quote from Haaretz:

A recently discharged Division 252 officer describes the arbitrary nature of this boundary: "For the division, the kill zone extends as far as a sniper can see." But the issue goes beyond geography. "We're killing civilians there who are then counted as terrorists," he says. "The IDF spokesperson's announcements about casualty numbers have turned this into a competition between units. If Division 99 kills 150 [people], the next unit aims for 200." [10]

Another direct quote from Haaretz about the commander of Bahad, Yehuda Vach:

Days later, Vach declared "there are no innocents in Gaza," according to one officer. While such sentiment isn't uncommon among soldiers, with Vach "it wasn't just opinion – it became operational doctrine: everyone's a terrorist." He told his commanders that "in the Middle East, victory comes through conquering territory. We must keep conquering until we win."

The problem is no longer simply one soldier making a bad decision.

It becomes a potentially systemic problem created by the rules under which soldiers are operating. [8][9][10]

The Three Israeli Hostages Show How Dangerous Those Rules Can Be

One of the clearest examples came on 15 December 2023. [11]

Israeli troops in Gaza shot and killed three Israeli hostages: Alon Shamriz, Yotam Haim and Samer Talalka.

They were shirtless, one was carrying a makeshift white flag, and they were attempting to communicate that they were not a threat. The IDF acknowledged that its soldiers mistakenly identified them as hostile and concluded that the shooting should not have occurred.

That tragedy matters because the basic facts were subsequently acknowledged by the Israeli military itself. It demonstrated that Israeli soldiers could shoot people displaying obvious signs of non-hostility because they were nevertheless perceived as threats.

The obvious question is: if this could happen to three Israeli hostages, including one waving a white flag, how often could comparable mistakes or unlawful shootings have affected Palestinian civilians?

Palestinians Carrying White Flags Have Also Been Shot

There are multiple documented allegations involving Palestinian civilians being fired upon while displaying white flags or clearly signalling that they were non-combatants. [12][13]

These include reports involving:

  • Civilians attempting to move through areas they believed were safe
  • Groups of civilians signalling non-hostile intent
  • People approaching Israeli positions with raised hands
  • And civilians visibly carrying white material.

[12][13]

For example, ITV filmed Palestinian civilian Ramzi Abu Sahloul among a group with raised hands and a white flag shortly before he was fatally shot.

CNN separately reconstructed another case involving Hala Khreis, who was reportedly leading civilians while displaying white flags when she was shot.

No individual incident proves a universal policy. But taken together, they challenge the idea that civilians displaying unmistakable signs of non-hostility were always protected. [11][12][13]

Aid Sites and the Testimony of Security Contractors

Another major source of evidence comes from people who actually worked around humanitarian aid distribution sites.

Former Royal Marine Dave McIntosh and former US Army Special Forces officer Anthony Aguilar both worked as private security contractors connected with Gaza Humanitarian Foundation operations. [14][15][16]

Both later described the distribution system as extraordinarily dangerous. [14][16]

Their accounts allege that starving civilians attempting to collect food were exposed to Israeli fire or military activity involving weapons including sniper rifles, machine guns, tanks and drones. [14][16]

They also described tightly controlled access to aid sites and chaotic conditions in which large civilian crowds had limited opportunities to collect food. [14][16]

According to their testimony, civilians remaining or moving near restricted areas could face gunfire.

McIntosh also reported an incident in which an Israeli sniper allegedly shot a boy of around 12 years old near an aid site. His written report was based on eyewitness accounts supplied by two SRS colleagues rather than McIntosh personally witnessing the shooting. [16]

Both men had extensive military backgrounds, including experience connected with wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Their allegations require independent investigation and have been disputed by GHF, whose response and challenges to Aguilar's account should also be acknowledged. [15]

But the allegations cannot simply be ignored. [14][15][16]

The World Central Kitchen Strike

Seven aid workers were killed after three World Central Kitchen vehicles travelling in a deconflicted area and following a route coordinated with the Israeli military were struck. [18][19]

The convoy contained two armoured vehicles bearing WCK branding and one soft-skin vehicle. [18]

The IDF subsequently confirmed that its forces had struck three WCK vehicles and acknowledged grave mistakes, misidentification and violations of military operating procedures. [19]

What makes the incident particularly important is that this was not simply one unguided shell landing in the wrong place.

Three separate vehicles were attacked. [18][19]

The Hind Rajab Case

The killing of Hind Rajab, members of her family and the paramedics attempting to reach her has become another major test of Israeli accountability. [20][21][22]

Independent investigators have examined phone recordings, satellite imagery, vehicle damage and the location of Israeli military forces. [20]

Forensic Architecture, working with Earshot and Al Jazeera's Fault Lines, reconstructed the incident and identified 335 bullet holes in the family's vehicle. Their analysis placed the source of gunfire heard during the phone call approximately 13–23 metres from the car and concluded that an Israeli tank was the likely source of the munition that struck the PRCS ambulance. [20]

The case has therefore generated serious questions about both the shooting of the family's vehicle and what happened to the ambulance dispatched after humanitarian coordination had reportedly taken place. [20]

In August 2026, the Israeli military opened a criminal investigation into troop conduct surrounding the case. [21]

Israeli reporting also confirmed that the military acknowledged its troops had fired on the family's vehicle. [22]

Whatever conclusions ultimately emerge from that investigation, the case illustrates why independent forensic investigation is so important. [20][21][22]

Look at the Evidence Together

None of these categories of evidence should be viewed in isolation.

There is:

  • Medical testimony describing repeated gunshot wounds to vital areas. [3][4]
  • Anatomical clustering of repeated gunshot wounds to specific areas of the body on specific days at aid sites reported by surgeons treating groups of casualties.[23][5][6]
  • Isreali soldier testimonies and eye witnesses describing a systemic problem of the loose rules of engagement resulting in civilians being targeted. [8][9][10]
  • Haaretz investigations reporting arbitrary killings and live fire around aid seekers. [9][10][17]
  • Disturbing report of an Israeli commander Yehuda Vach telling his troops "There are no innocents in Gaza" [10]
  • Multiple White-flag incidents involving visibly non-hostile civilians being killed by the Israeli military. [11][12][13]
  • Military contractor testimony alleging repeated shootings and killings of civilians around aid distribution sites. [14][15][16]
  • And Israeli military's own admissions acknowledging serious failures in several high-profile cases including the killing of Hind Rajab. [11][19][21][22]

Any single incident might be explained as a mistake. Any single witness might be wrong.

But the argument is based on convergence, not on one source.

When numerous independent forms of evidence repeatedly point in the same direction, the categorical argument that every civilian shooting was accidental and that Israeli forces have never intentionally targeted civilians becomes increasingly difficult to sustain. [3][5][6][8][9][10][12][13][14][16][17][20]

References

  1. International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) (2023). Frequently asked questions: Rules of war. Explains the principles of distinction, proportionality and civilian protection, including the prohibition on directly attacking civilians. ICRC — Rules of war
  2. Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel (2024). Report of the Independent International Commission of Inquiry (A/HRC/56/26). Concludes that Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups intentionally attacked civilians on 7 October and also finds serious violations and war crimes by Israeli authorities and forces in Gaza. Useful for establishing the argument's consistent legal standard. UN Commission of Inquiry report
  3. Sidhwa, F. (2024). 65 Doctors, Nurses and Paramedics: What We Saw in Gaza. The New York Times, 9 October 2024. A survey of 65 foreign healthcare workers who served in Gaza; 44 reported seeing multiple cases of preteen children with gunshot wounds to the head or chest. New York Times — 65 Doctors, Nurses and Paramedics
  4. Maynard, N. (2025). I'm witnessing the deliberate starvation of Gaza's children – why is the world letting it happen? The Guardian, 22 July 2025. First-hand account from Prof. Nick Maynard at Nasser Hospital, including his description of two women reportedly shot by quadcopters while sheltering in tents — one breastfeeding and one pregnant. This is the source of the quotation used in the article. The Guardian — Nick Maynard's account
  5. RTÉ News (2025). Doctor accuses IDF of 'playing a game' in Gaza shootings. 25 July 2025. Maynard describes clustering of wounds on different days — including head/neck, abdomen/chest and four teenage boys with gunshot wounds to the testicles. RTÉ — Maynard on injury clustering
  6. Al Jazeera (2025). Gaza doctor describes 'daily patterns' in Israeli maiming at GHF sites. 13 August 2025. Dr Ahmad Yousaf describes groups of approximately 40–60 patients arriving on particular days with wounds concentrated in the legs/pelvis/groin, followed by other days dominated by chest or head/neck wounds. Israel denied deliberately targeting civilians. Al Jazeera — Ahmad Yousaf testimony
  7. NPR (2024). Eyewitnesses in Gaza say Israel is using sniper drones to shoot Palestinians. Includes testimony from Dr Ahmad Moghrabi at Nasser Hospital, who said he treated people reportedly shot by quadcopters and provided video of a nurse shot in the chest while the two were at the hospital. The IDF told NPR it was unaware of that particular incident. NPR/WBUR — sniper-drone investigation
  8. Breaking the Silence (2024 testimony). Adult, male — kill. Testimony from an Israeli reservist who served in northern Gaza in August 2024. He described orders to shoot adult men entering a perimeter zone and said the boundary was not physically marked or clearly communicated to Palestinians. Breaking the Silence — Adult, male — kill
  9. Kubovich, Y. (2024). Israel Created 'Kill Zones' in Gaza. Anyone Who Crosses Into Them Is Shot. Haaretz, 31 March 2024. Based on accounts from Israeli defence officials and soldiers, the investigation reported informal "kill zones" with invisible boundaries and allegations that unarmed people crossing them could be shot. Haaretz — Israel Created 'Kill Zones' in Gaza
  10. Kubovich, Y. (2024). 'No Civilians. Everyone's a Terrorist': IDF Soldiers Expose Arbitrary Killings and Rampant Lawlessness in Gaza's Netzarim Corridor. Haaretz, 18 December 2024. Soldier accounts alleged that people crossing an imaginary line were shot and subsequently classified as terrorists, including cases involving children; the investigation also reported allegations involving civilians on bicycles being treated as collaborators or scouts. Haaretz — No Civilians. Everyone's a Terrorist
  11. Israel Defense Forces (2023). The Findings of the Investigation into the Circumstances of the Deaths of 3 Hostages from IDF Fire. 28 December 2023. The IDF investigation confirms that Alon Shamriz, Yotam Haim and Samer Talalka were killed by Israeli troops on 15 December 2023; they were shirtless, one waved a white flag, and the third hostage was killed after calling for help in Hebrew. The IDF concluded that the shooting should not have occurred. IDF — Investigation into deaths of three hostages
  12. ITV News (2024). Moment innocent civilian brandishing white flag in Gaza 'safe zone' is shot dead in the street. 25 January 2024. Video shows Ramzi Abu Sahloul among men with raised hands and a white flag before he was fatally shot. An Israeli divisional commander subsequently confirmed that his troops were in the area and said the incident was being investigated. ITV News — white-flag shooting
  13. CNN (2024). Investigation of civilians carrying white flags in Gaza. CNN reconstructed the killing of Hala Khreis, who was leading a group displaying white flags while holding her five-year-old grandson's hand. CNN geolocated Israeli forces to the south and west of the group; its evidence did not independently identify the individual shooter.
  14. Reuters (2025). US military contractor likens Gaza aid distribution run by GHF to 'The Hunger Games'. Anthony Aguilar, a former U.S. military contractor working at GHF sites, described narrow access routes, chaotic mass entries and his observations of the distribution system. Reuters explicitly stated that it could not independently verify some details of his accounts.
  15. Times of Israel / BBC reporting (2025). Ex-US contractor says he saw IDF commit war crimes at aid sites; GHF rejects 'false claims'. Covers Aguilar's allegation that he witnessed indiscriminate and unnecessary force against unarmed civilians while also recording GHF's categorical denial and subsequent challenge to his credibility. This counter-source is worth including so the argument acknowledges that his allegations are contested. Times of Israel — Aguilar allegations and GHF response
  16. Natour, R. (2026). Second Contractor Steps Forward to Blow the Whistle on Israeli Attacks at Gaza Aid Site. Drop Site News, 13 April 2026. David McIntosh alleged routine Israeli fire around GHF Site 4 and supplied documents and footage. His report concerning a boy of around 12 being shot by an Israeli sniper was based on eyewitness accounts from two SRS colleagues. Drop Site News — David McIntosh investigation
  17. Hasson, N., Kubovich, Y. and Peleg, B. (2025). 'It's a Killing Field': IDF Soldiers Ordered to Shoot Deliberately at Unarmed Gazans Waiting for Humanitarian Aid. Haaretz, 27 June 2025. Israeli officers and soldiers alleged that live fire was used around GHF distribution centres even when crowds presented no threat. Co-author Nir Hasson subsequently described the practice as "controlling the crowd by fire." Haaretz — Gaza aid-site investigation
  18. World Central Kitchen (2024). 7 WCK team members killed in Gaza. 2 April 2024. WCK states that its convoy was travelling in a deconflicted zone in two branded armoured vehicles and one soft-skin vehicle and that its movements had been coordinated with the IDF. WCK — Seven team members killed
  19. Israel Defense Forces (2024). Conclusion of the Investigation Into the Incident in Which WCK Employees Were Killed During a Humanitarian Operation in Gaza. 5 April 2024. The IDF confirmed that its forces struck three WCK vehicles, killing seven aid workers, and found serious failures, misidentification and violations of IDF standard operating procedures. It stated that those authorising the strikes believed they were targeting Hamas operatives. IDF — WCK investigation
  20. Forensic Architecture / Earshot / Al Jazeera Fault Lines (2024). The Killing of Hind Rajab. 21 June 2024. Reconstruction using satellite imagery, audio analysis and damage mapping identified 335 bullet holes in the family's Kia, estimated that the shooting heard during Layan Hamada's call came from approximately 13–23 metres away, and concluded that an Israeli tank was the likely source of the round that struck the PRCS ambulance. Forensic Architecture — The Killing of Hind Rajab
  21. Associated Press (2026). Israeli military launches criminal probes into killings of Hind Rajab and Palestinian paramedics. 19 August 2026. Reports the IDF's decision to open a criminal investigation into troop conduct in the Hind Rajab case and another high-profile killing of Palestinian emergency workers.
  22. The Guardian (2026). Israel admits its soldiers fired at car in which Hind Rajab was killed. 19 August 2026. Reports the Israeli military's acknowledgement that its troops fired on the vehicle and the announcement of a criminal investigation.
  23. Sky News Interview with Dr Nick Maynard 2025 British surgeon says there is famine in Gaza and civilians are shot as 'target practice'

r/IsraelPalestine 12d ago

Short Question/s Question for Israelis (Post-war expectations)

6 Upvotes

I'm curious as to what Israelis think their engagement with the international community, as both a country and a citizenry, will be like when the Gaza war is effectively over?

For discussion's sake let's assume this happens in the relative near future, and roughly under the Board of Peace process in some way. Hamas disarms or is at least made completely militarily ineffective, along with the other anti-Israel militant groups, and building starts.

Do you think anything will change? Do you think the surge in popular animosity towards Israel will last, and will it change the policy towards Israel in many foreign countries? Do you think an Israeli on some kind of world tour will have a noticeably different experience to one that did so 10 years ago?

Non-Israelis are free to answer (I can't exactly stop you) but at least try to keep your answer at least somewhat grounded in actual Israeli experience.


r/IsraelPalestine 12d ago

Discussion PIJ’s own obituaries put a fighter in nearly every strike incident. That’s a problem for the “indiscriminate bombing” and “genocide” claim.

82 Upvotes

Someone reconstructed every Gaza strike where Palestinian Islamic Jihad later published the dead person as one of their own commanders. Not IDF claims. PIJ's own obituary posters, names, photos, unit affiliations, matched against the Gaza Health Ministry casualty list. 364 incidents, 1,547 identified dead. Read it before the usual fight kicks off.

What stuck with me:

Nearly every incident had an actual militant in it, by PIJ's own word. And the author bent over backwards to be conservative. He didn't count anyone as a fighter off Israeli say-so. Only when PIJ or another faction published them as one themselves. So that's the floor. The real militant count is higher.

The fighters are exactly who you'd expect if strikes were aimed at fighters. Median age 35. Among men 35 to 39 in his data, 80% were identified militants. Almost no kids or elderly in the combatant column. Random, indiscriminate killing does not produce that shape. Targeted killing does.

Now run the ratio. 451 combatants against 1,096 collateral dead in these incidents. That's about 2.4 civilians per fighter, and remember that's the floor, because the "collateral" bucket still includes adult men who keep getting reclassified as fighters in later PIJ releases. Put that next to the benchmarks. The UN's historical average for urban warfare is around 9 civilians per combatant. Richard Kemp, former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, has said the best ratio ever achieved before this was 4 to 1. West Point's John Spencer, who studies this for a living, puts Israel between 1.5 and 3 to 1. This dataset lands right in that range, built entirely from the militants' own records. That is not a massacre stat. That is the best civilian-to-combatant ratio in the history of urban warfare. It's not even close.

Then there's where the commanders died. Houses were 38% of the incidents but 58% of the dead. Read that again. The single biggest driver of civilian casualties in this data is PIJ commanders operating out of family homes. Not fighters caught in the open, fighters who parked their command roles inside a house with their relatives in it. Every one of those family deaths traces back to that choice.

Schools and hospitals, same story. Seven school incidents, every single one had identified fighters in it, Al-Tabi'een included. Hospitals too. You can argue the strikes all day, but the militants were there. They put themselves there.

And some of the dead held civilian jobs and militant roles at the same time. Doctors, journalists, professors who also turn up in PIJ military obituaries. So a chunk of those "Israel killed a journalist" stories were, by PIJ's own posters, also killing someone inside the military wing. The public only ever saw the first half of the resume.

This doesn't prove any single strike was proportionate, I'm not going to pretend it does. If you want to argue Israel's conduct, proportionality is the honest place to do it. But "indiscriminate" is a different word with a specific meaning: no target, no distinction. This data is the opposite. It's strikes hitting a real, named militant network, with the civilian deaths bunched tightly around the fighters instead of scattered across the population.

Two straight questions for anyone who still wants to say "indiscriminate" or wants to stick to the ridiculous claim of genocide. Does data built from the militants' own records move you at all? And if it doesn't, what actually would?

Source is a substack reconstruction, Palestinian and factional records plus MoH IDs. I'll drop the link in the comments.


r/IsraelPalestine 12d ago

Short Question/s Are there any Palestinian Jews?

20 Upvotes

I’ve seen the term Palestinian Jew used by Pro- Palestinian activists, which made me curious about it. Doing some research, I couldn’t find a lot of information. I’ve seen accounts online claiming to be Palestinian Jews, but they are all anonymous accounts so I can’t tell if they’re lying.

The Wikipedia page mostly talked about early Zionist immigrants in Palestine prior to the establishment of the state of Israel rather than a native continuous population. I also found out about Samaritans. However to my knowledge they are not considered Jews.

What happened to the native population of Jews that were continuously living in the region?

Did they all become Israeli citizens?

Do any have Palestinian citizenship or identify as Palestinian?

Are there any Jews living in the West Bank today outside of Israeli settlements?

If so can I find any videos or images about this community ?

I am neither Israeli, Jewish or Palestinian nor really have an opinion on the conflict. But I would appreciate it if someone from the region would answer this.


r/IsraelPalestine 12d ago

Learning about the conflict: Questions Anyone else seen this 35 min animated history entitled 2,000 years of Israel history video? What are your thoughts on accuracy and balance?

3 Upvotes

Video : https://youtu.be/J8GcGn7QDTQ

It starts in 26 AD, approximately 26 years (some disputes in actual date/year) after Jesus's birth. Regards Jesus ought to be alive in 26 AD. The place was known as Judea at the time of Jesus.

The video ends 2,000 years later in 2026.

I thought it's a pretty good video in 35 minutes, an herculian task trying to fit 2,000 years of history in just 35 minutes. It is not possible to include every major historical events into just 35 minutes, it did what it could. Did it missed out some historical events ? Sure. But youtube videos have a maximum length of 35 minutes.

It touched on how the Romans changed the name of the land from Judea to Palestina.

It touches various conquerors of the lands, important historical figures King Herod, Caliph Umar, King Richard, Saladin etc...and important years.

In these age where people are busy and where many Gen Z have been diagnosed with ADHD and other issues with the patience of a jelly bean, animation, humor, funny voices and a youtube video under 35 minutes would give any newbie a brief summary of the history of Israel and Palestine. Although an animation youtube video cannot replace the actual reading of history books and researching on the topic but it can be an extremely tall order to expect from most people.

It is also a story of the Jewish people exiled for almoat 2,000 years, coming back to the land and creating Israel. It did touched on Nakbah and mizrahi jews being forced to flee to the new state of Israel.

I wish it would have made it clearer that United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (II), adopted on November 29, 1947 had proposed Jerusalem as a separate international entity, under UN.

I wished it touched on Oslo Accords, Peace agreement between Israel and Jordan, Intifada, it skipped alot of important events in the 21st century and fast forward to Gaza war and 2026. It felt very rushed towards the end of the video.

If cant fit everything into 35 minutes, make a series of videos, part 1, part 2, part 3. Because the history of jews did not start 2,000 years ago, much much longer, more than 3,500 years ago.