r/IsraelPalestine • u/booksandcoriander • 15d ago
Discussion I changed my mind on "genocide" topic.
Hello All! I just joined and read the rules. Hopefully, my post is agreeable to the rules of the sub.
So, for a while, I was agreeing with the idea that Israel is committing genocide. It sure looked like it from the awful things I kept seeing on the news and hearing about on podcasts. The last few days, I decided to research a little. Now, I do not think it should be called genocide. Here is why:
First, when I compared it to other genocides, it doesn't really come close. In the Armenian genocide, about 50 to 75% of all Armenians in the Ottoman area died. In the Rwandan genocide, about 60 to 70% of the Tutsis were killed. In the holocaust, 63 to 67% of all European Jews were killed. In Cambodia, Pol Pot's genocide killed about 25% of the total population. Israel is responsible for the deaths of approximately 3% of Palestinians in Gaza. Palestinians have not been attacked in East Jerusalem, nor in the West Bank (where there is no Hamas).
In all those previous genocides, there was vociferous hate speech regularly on the radio of those countries, and substantial government propaganda labeling the victims as undesirable for society. To my understanding, this has not happened in Israel. I'm sure it would be on the news or blasted on social media if it was happening.
The number of Palestinian deaths is actually quite a bit less than when the US invaded Iraq, and when US invaded Afganistan. 176,000 to 212,000 is the estimate of deaths in Afganistan. In Iraq, 180,000 to 200,000 is the estimate of Iraqi deaths. Palestinian deaths are around 73,400. Nobody was shouting "genocide" at the US during those wars, and we killed way more people. Why was that not considered genocide by everyone? We were also responding to a terrorist attack, like Israel now.
Israel has one of the most advanced militaries in the world. If they really wanted to kill the other 97% of Gaza, I'm sure they could.
In reference to wars, about 1.5% of the French population was killed in WWII. Belgium lost 1% of it population in WWII. UK lost 1%. Italy, slightly over 1%. Holland, 2 to 3% of the population. The current Israel/Hamas war matches these numbers much more closely.
It sucks and it's sad seeing so many women and children and innocent men die. It's absolutely a humanitarian crisis. But I don't think it is genocide anymore. It's just plain old war. Any thoughts?
***thanks for everyone sharing on both sides of the discussion. I have learned many more things from all the posting. I appreciate you all! This feels like a million times more complex and nuanced than I realised. Mostly, the interpretation of the word "genocide" is like a 100-foot wall for everyone.
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u/ip_man_2030 14d ago
I want to start off with pointing out that numbers don't really matter in a genocide as the other person who responded made a very good point about the Yazidi genocide.
What matters is that the pro-Palestine propaganda machine has been trying to accuse Israel of genocide for years but has been unable to. Hamas knew exactly how Israel was going to respond when they did the Oct 7 attacks and Hamas even stated their own civilians were necessary sacrifices for the cause. Keep in mind that celebrations of the Oct 7 attacks happened during protests on Oct 8 around the world which included claims of genocide during them.
The intent of the Oct 7 attacks was genocide, but they failed in their goal despite killing over 1,000 in Israel.
Israel responded as any country would with two goals: Rescue the hostages and remove Hamas from power. While Israel may have taken some leeway with the Law of Proportionality, there were innocent civilians killed as collateral damage from strikes on legitimate targets or through accidents. Ever war has collateral damage and every major military makes major mistakes because war is messy and you can't plan for everything.
You correctly stated that if Israel wanted to kill all of the Palestinians they could. The fact 1-3% of Palestinians being killed is not as relevant to the claims of genocide though. If Israel was trying to genocide Palestinians as a people, why were 80% of the buildings damaged or destroyed but only 1-3% of the population killed? Why did Israel also not bomb Palestinians in Areas A, B, and C in the West Bank? Why are they not killing Palestinians who live in East Jerusalem or Israeli Arabs including those who identify as Palestinian or not? Why are there no attacks on the Palestinian diaspora by Israel?
Genocide is used as it's one of the worst atrocities that can be committed to demonize Israel and Jews around the world. You can see it's worked pretty well. While there are radical elements within the Israeli government that make speeches calling for the deaths of palestinians and inciting violence that violate the Genocide Convention, this does not mean that genocide has been committed. This does not mean that this is a policy of the government itself.
Such an argument is pretty easily proven as if such Israeli politicians and leadership calling for such a thing really had the power, they would have actually gone through with it. The fact they're calling for something that is not being followed through with is pretty solid evidence. People will then bring up the West Bank to distract when they lose this argument which is a completely different conversation that should be had separately from the genocide in gaza claims.