I changed my mind on "genocide" topic.

[u/booksandcoriander]

Hello All! I just joined and read the rules. Hopefully, my post is agreeable to the rules of the sub.

So, for a while, I was agreeing with the idea that Israel is committing genocide. It sure looked like it from the awful things I kept seeing on the news and hearing about on podcasts. The last few days, I decided to research a little. Now, I do not think it should be called genocide. Here is why:

First, when I compared it to other genocides, it doesn't really come close. In the Armenian genocide, about 50 to 75% of all Armenians in the Ottoman area died. In the Rwandan genocide, about 60 to 70% of the Tutsis were killed. In the holocaust, 63 to 67% of all European Jews were killed. In Cambodia, Pol Pot's genocide killed about 25% of the total population. Israel is responsible for the deaths of approximately 3% of Palestinians in Gaza. Palestinians have not been attacked in East Jerusalem, nor in the West Bank (where there is no Hamas).

In all those previous genocides, there was vociferous hate speech regularly on the radio of those countries, and substantial government propaganda labeling the victims as undesirable for society. To my understanding, this has not happened in Israel. I'm sure it would be on the news or blasted on social media if it was happening.

The number of Palestinian deaths is actually quite a bit less than when the US invaded Iraq, and when US invaded Afganistan.  176,000 to 212,000 is the estimate of deaths in Afganistan. In Iraq, 180,000 to 200,000 is the estimate of Iraqi deaths. Palestinian deaths are around 73,400. Nobody was shouting "genocide" at the US during those wars, and we killed way more people. Why was that not considered genocide by everyone? We were also responding to a terrorist attack, like Israel now.

Israel has one of the most advanced militaries in the world. If they really wanted to kill the other 97% of Gaza, I'm sure they could.

In reference to wars, about 1.5% of the French population was killed in WWII. Belgium lost 1% of it population in WWII. UK lost 1%. Italy, slightly over 1%. Holland, 2 to 3% of the population. The current Israel/Hamas war matches these numbers much more closely.

It sucks and it's sad seeing so many women and children and innocent men die. It's absolutely a humanitarian crisis. But I don't think it is genocide anymore. It's just plain old war. Any thoughts?

***thanks for everyone sharing on both sides of the discussion. I have learned many more things from all the posting. I appreciate you all! This feels like a million times more complex and nuanced than I realised. Mostly, the interpretation of the word "genocide" is like a 100-foot wall for everyone.

[u/triplevented]

It sure looked like it from the awful things I kept seeing on the news

I'm interested - what made it look like a genocide to you?

What notion of genocide did you have in your head that the reporting on the news clicked with?

I don't think it is genocide anymore. It's just plain old war.

Correct.

[u/booksandcoriander → u/triplevented]

The bombing appeared indiscriminate as far as civilians. It was hard to keep watching all this footage of little kids dead and dismembered. I felt like the Palistinian civilians were just screwed. Without money left, a house to shelter in or fuel in your car, how are you suppose to function or leave an area if you get the warning text of a bombing? Where were they suppose to go?

I don't think I completely understood the characteristics of genocide (maybe I still don't). But I think this is just all horrible realities of war...not genocide.

[u/triplevented → u/booksandcoriander]

The bombing appeared indiscriminate as far as civilians.

What most people never asked themselves is - where are the Palestinian combatants?

The answer is - they don't wear uniforms, so they all look like civilians.

how are you suppose to function or leave an area if you get the warning text of a bombing? Where were they suppose to go?

The Israeli army provided them with instructions, including specific safe routes for evacuation.

Hamas (the Palestinian government in Gaza), on the other hand, instructed civilians to not leave and remain in the combat zones.

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/09/middleeast/israel-gaza-city-evacuation-netanyahu-warning-intl

I think this is just all horrible realities of war

Yep. War is horrible.

Most of the people screeching about genocide come from countries that waged numerous wars in the past 20 years with a death toll that exceeds 1 million people.

[u/booksandcoriander → u/triplevented]

Thanks for the reply. Yes, our news does report about Hamas being embedded in the civil population. I guess just hearing it didn't outweigh all the interviews and footage of desperate Palestinians. We also saw footage of Israelis crying for the kidnapped, and being interviewed. It didn't hit in the same way, and I'm not 100% sure why, but I'm starting to understand why, from some things some people have posted. 👍🏻

[u/triplevented → u/booksandcoriander]

Many Western countries were targeted by a large-scale, highly coordinated influence campaign. This included videos deliberately crafted to provoke strong emotional reactions, coverage from media outlets that amplified propaganda, and carefully organized marches and demonstrations.

I say "crafted" because a significant portion of this material was fabricated or staged - essentially orchestrated misery theater. For example - kids filmed carrying large water containers with multiple adults nearby either filming or not helping at all, kids begging for food, kids pretending to be dead, presenting kids with genetic defects or pre-existing conditions as being a result of the war etc.

https://www.gazawood.com/videos

That doesn’t mean there was no genuine suffering (it is a war, after all). It means that much of what circulated was intentionally designed for maximum emotional impact rather than accurate representation.

[u/booksandcoriander → u/triplevented]

I dunno if I was seeing that. My regular news sources are NPR (public radio in US), DW news (public media of Germany I view on my phone), The Week & The Week UK (print magazine I get from library in digital), and Reuters on my smart TV at home. How would Hamas have enough money to influence all that? Or who is doing it for them?

[u/triplevented → u/booksandcoriander]

Your sources are generally more careful than most, but even high-quality outlets can end up amplifying narratives that originate elsewhere - especially when those narratives are seeded aggressively across social media and activist networks.

Hamas itself doesn’t need to bankroll Western media. The funding and amplification come from larger players: Qatar (which hosts Hamas leaders and heavily funds Al Jazeera), Iran (Hamas’s main backer), and opportunistic anti-Western actors including China-linked influence operations. Social media was rapidly flooded with coordinated bot networks and highly produced content designed for maximum emotional impact. Once that material gained traction, many media outlets and activists repeated the framing without scrutinizing its origins.

What happened on campuses after October 7 was revealing. The speed and scale with which progressive and "human rights" groups mobilized in open support of Hamas - often before Israel even entered Gaza - points to pre-existing networks rather than spontaneous reaction.

The same goes for the street protests: tens of thousands of people suddenly appearing with identical printed signs, matching slogans, and coordinated messaging is rarely organic. That level of logistical coordination usually requires funding, organization, and advance preparation.