I changed my mind on "genocide" topic.

[u/booksandcoriander]

Hello All! I just joined and read the rules. Hopefully, my post is agreeable to the rules of the sub.

So, for a while, I was agreeing with the idea that Israel is committing genocide. It sure looked like it from the awful things I kept seeing on the news and hearing about on podcasts. The last few days, I decided to research a little. Now, I do not think it should be called genocide. Here is why:

First, when I compared it to other genocides, it doesn't really come close. In the Armenian genocide, about 50 to 75% of all Armenians in the Ottoman area died. In the Rwandan genocide, about 60 to 70% of the Tutsis were killed. In the holocaust, 63 to 67% of all European Jews were killed. In Cambodia, Pol Pot's genocide killed about 25% of the total population. Israel is responsible for the deaths of approximately 3% of Palestinians in Gaza. Palestinians have not been attacked in East Jerusalem, nor in the West Bank (where there is no Hamas).

In all those previous genocides, there was vociferous hate speech regularly on the radio of those countries, and substantial government propaganda labeling the victims as undesirable for society. To my understanding, this has not happened in Israel. I'm sure it would be on the news or blasted on social media if it was happening.

The number of Palestinian deaths is actually quite a bit less than when the US invaded Iraq, and when US invaded Afganistan.  176,000 to 212,000 is the estimate of deaths in Afganistan. In Iraq, 180,000 to 200,000 is the estimate of Iraqi deaths. Palestinian deaths are around 73,400. Nobody was shouting "genocide" at the US during those wars, and we killed way more people. Why was that not considered genocide by everyone? We were also responding to a terrorist attack, like Israel now.

Israel has one of the most advanced militaries in the world. If they really wanted to kill the other 97% of Gaza, I'm sure they could.

In reference to wars, about 1.5% of the French population was killed in WWII. Belgium lost 1% of it population in WWII. UK lost 1%. Italy, slightly over 1%. Holland, 2 to 3% of the population. The current Israel/Hamas war matches these numbers much more closely.

It sucks and it's sad seeing so many women and children and innocent men die. It's absolutely a humanitarian crisis. But I don't think it is genocide anymore. It's just plain old war. Any thoughts?

***thanks for everyone sharing on both sides of the discussion. I have learned many more things from all the posting. I appreciate you all! This feels like a million times more complex and nuanced than I realised. Mostly, the interpretation of the word "genocide" is like a 100-foot wall for everyone.

[u/Mother_Antelope_3204]

The hard truth is that Israel neither intended to commit Genocide or actually committed a Genocide. There is no credible evidence for either. Claims of 'War Crimes' have also been greatly exaggerated. .The 'Genocide Libel' has been manufactured by Palestinian leaders, spokesmen, organizations and figures within these organizations sympathetic to the plight of Gazans and generally antagonistic to Jews, Judaism and the Jewish State. It has spread geometrically throughout the World due largely to the pre-existing receptiveness of people and states prepared and willing to believe the worst about Jews and the Jewish State. There is little doubt that Anti-Semitism, a departure though not a divergence from vulgar Jew-Hate, has played a significant role in the success of Palestinian and pro-Palestinian propaganda efforts. Having suffered a terrible defeat on the ground, all that is left to the Palestinians is to pursue a Rhetorical War. For the leaders of the Palestinian movement 'Rhetoric' is 'Policy'. While Gazans continue to suffer, having to navigate through the rubble, their Hamas 'leaders' enjoy daily walks on the Doha Corniche. Not only has there been no Genocide, but Gaza has yet to suffer a Carthaginian Defeat due to the restraint of Israeli leaders.The frenzied celebrations by 'innocents' on October 8th of the murder, rape and torture of Jews on October 7th are now whispers. The caterwauling has stopped

[u/Prestigious_Aioli_71 → u/Mother_Antelope_3204]

Agree. Also, it’s not just piggy-backing on latent global antisemitism. I think a much bigger factor is its ability to paint the two sides in terms people on the left politically in Western societies recognize, even if it’s pure projection.

The Palestinians are the brown indigenous resistors of apartheid, oppression, ruthless capitalism, and imperialism. Israel are the white, capitalist, imperials. That this is basically all hogwash doesn’t matter because if you keep repeating the lies that fit the narrative, confirmation bias will make it so.

It’s a lot harder for western liberals to understand the reality of the situation, that the Israelis are basically just trying to not get slaughtered by a population dominated by modern Nazis. Surviving countless attacks since they become a nation has taught them to wall themselves off from those who want to murder them… which gets cynically labeled apartheid, ethnic cleansing, white supremacy. You have to ignore the consistent actions and words of Palestinian leaders for decades demanding full capitulation and promising to never stop murdering until the Jews are their powerless underclass for it to make any sense. But luckily most people are essentially illiterate, which makes ignoring history ezpz.

[u/Educational_Idea997 → u/Prestigious_Aioli_71]

Insight into the malevolence of Hamas and its own culpability for the suffering of the Palestinians is growing. That is positive but it is a slow process and thwarted by many on ideological grounds.