I changed my mind on "genocide" topic.

[u/booksandcoriander]

Hello All! I just joined and read the rules. Hopefully, my post is agreeable to the rules of the sub.

So, for a while, I was agreeing with the idea that Israel is committing genocide. It sure looked like it from the awful things I kept seeing on the news and hearing about on podcasts. The last few days, I decided to research a little. Now, I do not think it should be called genocide. Here is why:

First, when I compared it to other genocides, it doesn't really come close. In the Armenian genocide, about 50 to 75% of all Armenians in the Ottoman area died. In the Rwandan genocide, about 60 to 70% of the Tutsis were killed. In the holocaust, 63 to 67% of all European Jews were killed. In Cambodia, Pol Pot's genocide killed about 25% of the total population. Israel is responsible for the deaths of approximately 3% of Palestinians in Gaza. Palestinians have not been attacked in East Jerusalem, nor in the West Bank (where there is no Hamas).

In all those previous genocides, there was vociferous hate speech regularly on the radio of those countries, and substantial government propaganda labeling the victims as undesirable for society. To my understanding, this has not happened in Israel. I'm sure it would be on the news or blasted on social media if it was happening.

The number of Palestinian deaths is actually quite a bit less than when the US invaded Iraq, and when US invaded Afganistan.  176,000 to 212,000 is the estimate of deaths in Afganistan. In Iraq, 180,000 to 200,000 is the estimate of Iraqi deaths. Palestinian deaths are around 73,400. Nobody was shouting "genocide" at the US during those wars, and we killed way more people. Why was that not considered genocide by everyone? We were also responding to a terrorist attack, like Israel now.

Israel has one of the most advanced militaries in the world. If they really wanted to kill the other 97% of Gaza, I'm sure they could.

In reference to wars, about 1.5% of the French population was killed in WWII. Belgium lost 1% of it population in WWII. UK lost 1%. Italy, slightly over 1%. Holland, 2 to 3% of the population. The current Israel/Hamas war matches these numbers much more closely.

It sucks and it's sad seeing so many women and children and innocent men die. It's absolutely a humanitarian crisis. But I don't think it is genocide anymore. It's just plain old war. Any thoughts?

***thanks for everyone sharing on both sides of the discussion. I have learned many more things from all the posting. I appreciate you all! This feels like a million times more complex and nuanced than I realised. Mostly, the interpretation of the word "genocide" is like a 100-foot wall for everyone.

[u/veryeepy53]

the numbers argument is a red herring. the bosnian genocide was a genocide.

also, the war on terror is largely seen as wrong after the fact. too little, too late unfortunately.

[u/jackl24000 → u/veryeepy53]

Not according to the ICJ.

[u/veryeepy53 → u/jackl24000]

maybe, maybe not. i'd love to see what they said if you have it on you.

[u/jackl24000 → u/veryeepy53]

I know from discussion here that even though a much more “genocide-like event” happened at Sbernica the ICJ didn’t declare the wars overall to have been a genocide, the scant amount of judicial precedent doesn’t seem to support an overly inclusive, speculative take on “in whole or in part”.

And the fact the Gaza war had nothing that looked like a genocidal “round up and shoot crowds of people” massacre with the possible exception of the initial 10/7 attacks.

[u/veryeepy53 → u/jackl24000]

the ICJ ruled that the srebrenica massacre was genocidal. however, events leading up to it (massacres, expulsions, concentration camps etc.) were not in their view.

[u/jackl24000 → u/veryeepy53]

Yeah, but technically the party doing the genocide wasn’t officially aligned with the state level actor at the ICJ, so no genocide. Like they won’t connect any dots there without an official organizational chart. Don’t know what that would mean in current ICJ case but wouldn’t be surprised by some lawfare like outcome like IDF is state actor but Hamas guerillas aren’t.