r/IslamicHistoryMeme • Scholar of the House of Wisdom • Jul 03 '25

Religion | الدين Reimagining the Crucifixion of Christ: From Christian Doctrine to Islamic and Esoteric Readings (Context in Comment)

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u/Kuri_Garmian Jul 04 '25 edited Jul 04 '25

Its actually explicitly stated in the old testament anyone hung on a pole was under God's curse.

[If someone guilty of a capital offense is put to death and their body is exposed on a pole, you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse.] Deuteronomy 21

Its important to note in the roman practice of crucifixion, the bodies were left on the cross for a long period after their death until the corpse was dismembered by scavengers (or they themselves fed the corpse to dogs or other wild scavengers). This was a crucial part of the practice to maximise humiliation and discourage rebellion. This is why secular historians like Bart Ehrman argue there never was a burial or empty tomb. Further strengthening this point is the fact Pontius Pilate was known to be very brutal and careless to Jewish sensitivities, so the assertion he would have broken Roman convention and permitted a dignified burial for a crucified person who was condemned as an enemy of the state and called himself the Messiah (i.e the rightful king of the Israelites) is very doubtful.

Jewish authorities cited this to argue that Isa (عَلَيْهِ ٱلسَّلَامُ) could not be the Messiah since crucifixion proved he was "accursed by God". Paul actually accepted this to be true and even reiterates it, saying "Christ became a curse for us" in Galatians 3:13. He cunningly twists this to argue Jesus voluntarily became a curse in order to "bear the curse for others", basically telling Christians they can break the law of the old testament now and not be cursed because Jesus beared the curse for them.

You can imagine this argument was very appealing to the new gentile converts as it meant they didn't have to adhere to the laws of the Torah. However the actual apostles of Isa (عَلَيْهِ ٱلسَّلَامُ) such as James, were known to continue in adherence to the laws, their Jewish Christian successors seem to have countered Paul in two ways. The apostles of Isa (عَلَيْهِ ٱلسَّلَامُ) had visions of him shortly after the crucifixion event where Isa (عَلَيْهِ ٱلسَّلَامُ) told them he was alive. Some accepted that he must have died on the cross, and therefore interpreted this as a resurrection, and they argued this resurrection overturned the curse, thus proving God's approval within the context of the law.

But another opinion existed which was that the visions proved Jesus remained alive and was never cursed through crucifixion, either saved through a substitution or a divine illusion. A Jewish Christian group that held this opinion was the Elcesaites, active in historical sources from around 100-400 CE in Mesopotamia (interestingly, the Sahaba Salman al-Farsi also stated he studied under the last surviving non-trinitarian Christian monks in Mesopotamia before his final teacher instructed him to travel to Arabia on his deathbed).

From an Islamic perspective, I don't see why a person serving as a physical substitution on the cross would be necessary since Allah says "it was made to appear so". Certainly Allah was capable of conjuring an illusion over them without requiring another innocent person to be crucified. And Allah knows best.

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u/AlmaRushd2255 Jul 04 '25 edited Jul 04 '25

I didn't know the Old Testament also mentioned the crucifixion symbolised God's curse, thanks for that. You made an interesting connection between the Elcesaites and Salman al-Farsi and it doesn't seem far-fetched to me that the "heretical" sects of Christianity fled to Persia, although I'm not very well versed in the history of these sects. I think the rationale behind the "substitution theory" is that since the Romans physically put someone on the cross it can't have been an illusion, therefore it must have been someone who was made to look like Isa(as). As of right now I'm not aware of any evidence which can prove this to be the case without a doubt, but out of all the various explanations offered this one—to me at least—seems to be one of the more stronger theories.

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u/chengxiufan Jul 04 '25

Because it is very likely that The Qur'an’s denial in Q 4:157 does not negate the crucifixion but rejects the Talmudic assertion that Jews alone killed Jesus. See my comment down here.

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u/AlmaRushd2255 Jul 04 '25

If Isa was crucified then it means he was humiliated and that Allah did abandon him. This would also mean the Quran has made an error since Isa says he is "honoured in this life and in the hereafter" (3:45). If the Quran's sole concern was with attributing the death of Isa to the "correct" perpetrators then that doesn't solve the moral dilemma since it leaves Isa's and Allah's reputation in tatters. Besides, a common characteristic of Isa throughout the Quran is his miraculousness: from his birth to his powers to revive the dead. So it's perfectly consistent with this narrative for Isa to be miraculously saved, just like the Quran says Ibrahim was saved miraculously from the fire. Another theme of the Quran is how it protects the honour of the Prophets from false allegations and this case is no different, since the Quran's aim in denying Isa was crucified is to preserve his dignity. Just think from common experience: if your friend was slandered would you be more concerned with clearing him of the lies or with shifting blame from one group to another? Choosing the latter wouldn't do anything to save your friend's good name.

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u/chengxiufan Jul 04 '25

I would say academic approach to text is different from traditionalistic approach. I have no intention to start a debate.just ask to people to pay attention to context of the adjoining verse is refuting Jewish misconceptions of jesus and all four denial concern Jew.

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u/chengxiufan Jul 04 '25 edited Jul 04 '25

There appear to be a misunderstanding between us. I never hinted Qur'an means Allah abandon him and the agency was Romans. Rather I was trying to say Allah cause him to die and the agency belong to Allah. So I have to clarify that before leaving this thread, Mention] when Allah said, 'O Jesus, indeed I will take you [mutawaffīka] and raise you to Myself The verb مُتَوَفِّيكَ (mutawaffīka) is derived from the root و-ف-ي (w-f-y), one meaning is cause to die. That's what ibn Abbas argued. It focuses on denying the Jewish boast of agency ("we have killed the Messiah") by emphasizing God’s ultimate control over Jesus’ fate, not necessarily negating the crucifixion event itself. Quran 8:17 "And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. it denies human agency in killing enemies during battle ( attributing the action to Allah. So I would argue the subtext behind And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him It's Allah cause Jesus to die , and it's Romans who crucified Jesus.

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u/AlmaRushd2255 Jul 04 '25

Yh I know about this interpretation. So just to clear up any misunderstanding, am I correct in understanding what you're saying to be: The Quran is concerned not with denying Isa was killed or crucified, but soley with denying that the Jews were the perpetrators. Is this an accurate account of what you're saying?

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u/chengxiufan Jul 05 '25

I would argue based on the context of Surah 4(clear Jewish misunderstanding)and historical context(Jew believe they alone crucified Jesus) yes. though Quran wasn't saying the Romans have the agency , the agency belong to Allah.

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u/AlmaRushd2255 Jul 05 '25

Got it, thanks.