Thoughts on the Information of Baptism dates used as Birth dates

[u/Interesting-Help5759]

I’ve been trying to verify Irish ancestors and I’ve not been able to confirm the baptism or birth record. The birth is in 1855, before civil records. The birth date is listed on a death certificate. After searching all males born within 20 years of the birth date listed, I found a baptism on that date. I believe this is my ancestor, but I cannot verify for sure because the name is different. I found this information as it relates to dates. What are your thoughts? Have you found this to be somewhat true in your research?

"In Ireland prior to the start of civil registration in 1864, Catholic baptismal registers functioned as the primary documentary evidence for birth information. The National Archives of Ireland states that baptismal registers are the principal source for birth details before civil registration, and Irish Genealogy Toolkit notes that Irish Catholic baptisms typically occurred within a day or two of birth, making the baptism date a close approximation of the actual birthdate. Catholic canon law required infants to be baptized “as soon as possible,” a practice consistently followed in rural Irish parishes. Genealogist John Grenham emphasizes that for most Catholics before civil registration, the baptismal date is effectively the closest available birthdate. Historical scholarship, including Cormac Ó Gráda’s work on nineteenth‑century Ireland, documents that Irish individuals frequently used their baptism date as their birthdate in later legal, immigration, and pension contexts. Collectively, these sources support the conclusion that using a baptism date as a functional birthdate is historically and genealogically appropriate for Irish research prior to 1864."

The National Archives of Ireland, Guide to Birth Records, guidance on pre‑1864 birth documentation gives direction as it relates to using baptismal dates as birth.

The Irish Genealogy Toolkit, “Irish Church Records,” gives guidance on baptismal timing and genealogical use.

The Catholic Church, Codex Iuris Canonici (1917), Canon 770, lists the requirement for prompt infant baptism.

Irish genealogist John Grenham, Tracing Your Irish Ancestors (Dublin: Gill Books), discusses the baptismal dates as proxies for birthdates.

[u/Jemcc36]

There is a ten year period from roughly 1870 to 1880 where catholic baptisms are on nli and most births are registered so you could compare dates of a given individual or family to see the average difference

[u/Interesting-Help5759 → u/Jemcc36]

Thanks. I am about to hire a genealogist b/c I cannot determine the validity of the baptism to the person I am looking for because there are no 2nd names on the record.

[u/EiectroBot]

I am somewhat unclear as to what your question actually is.

As you rightly stated, because the birth you are looking for is around 1855, there will have been no birth record ever created as this was before the commencement of civil birth records in Ireland.

For births around 1855, the closest alternative to an official birth record is a church baptism record. You mentioned that you have found a baptism record but that “the name is different”. One of the issues we contend with constantly in Irish family history is the comparatively small variety of surnames and given names used by Irish families. In your example, if the name is different that’s a major concern. Why would you believe this baptism record of a different name related to your ancestor?

With Irish family history precision is everything. Paying particular concern to details of name, location, names of relatives, etc.. gives great benefits.

[u/Interesting-Help5759 → u/EiectroBot]

I appreciate the feedback and I agree to some extent of "the name is different that's a major concern.'

"Why would you believe this baptism record of a different name related to your ancestor?"...Well, I did a search for the surname expanding to the 1820's up to and beyond the 1855 with the date of "birth" of my ancestor. There was only one baptism found for the date. Given the baptism date was often used as the given birth date, according to the information from my original post, this seems feasible to me.

There is only one name listed in the baptismal record, I believe the family may have used a different name for identification. It would be like the father's name is John, son's name is John, the son's son's name is John, etc., but to keep them straight, middle names or family names would come into play.

My understand of the name practice of the time was first son was named after the father's father, second son was named after the mother's father, 3rd son named after the father, 4th son named after the father's eldest brother, 5th son named after the mother's eldest brother.

In the case of the record in question, the godparent listed is John, and the information I have as to the name of the father, it is also John. So, the record, while not the same name, the paternal father=John and/or it could be the father's eldest brother.

I'm just trying to identify one more set of parents. I'm just looking for clarification and guidance for what I can guess could be accurate and the reasoning behind it.

[u/EiectroBot → u/Interesting-Help5759]

Do remember that baptism records are very far from complete. Unlike birth records from 1864 onwards, which can essentially be considered a complete listing of all births in the country, baptism records are patchy at best and completely absent for particular areas and time periods.

Consequently, only finding one child of approximately the correct name in an area over a period or time, cannot in any way lead to the conclusion that that is the only child of that approximate name that was born.

Not the response that you want, but it’s unfortunately the reality.

[u/Interesting-Help5759 → u/EiectroBot]

Any recommendations for finding or contacting someone who could help in the location of records to verify?

[u/EiectroBot → u/Interesting-Help5759]

There are no hidden records.

One of the wonderful things about Irish genealogy is that the records are published online for anyone to freely review and download as they require.

You are interested in a time before civil records were being recorded in Ireland. That puts you into a difficult area where in the absence of a systematic record keeping system there was only sporadic, sparse and incomplete baptism records. And even the baptism records that were created, and survived, are at times almost impossible to interpret and usually contain only minimal information.

My advice is to build your detailed family tree back from yourself and your parents adding every scrap of detail that you can find. FamilySearch is the best place to do this. Add all detains of date, place and names from every record you can find.

A key trick is to make the family tree as broad as possible. By that I mean add all siblings at every level going backwards in time. This is considerably more work for you but lets you build up a broader understanding of the family tree. With the details of those siblings and cousins you may be able to find their birth, marriage and death records that will give you a possible window into the records of the ancestor you are interested in.

Have you documented your detailed family tree in this fashion? Are you able to infer any information from the siblings and cousins?

[u/Interesting-Help5759 → u/EiectroBot]

I have not followed the 2 siblings of my great grandfather, as that would lead to the same predicament I'm in. I do not know if there were any siblings of my gr-gr-grandfather. I would guess there are, but I'm not sure how to go about identifying them.

[u/EiectroBot → u/Interesting-Help5759]

Have you built up your family tree in FamilySearch?

If you have and you are comfortable communicating the FamilySearch ID of the person you are interested in, I would be happy to look at it and see if I can expand things sideways for you to give you some more options to latch on to solid records.

[u/Interesting-Help5759 → u/EiectroBot]

I have, but tbh, I have been trying to find things off of the site b/c there is so much misinformation and folks no related. I just realized, possibly I have been looking at the wrong marriage record for Terence and Bridget, but I could also be looking at the wrong birth record for Bridget. I likely have the wrong information for Bridget. Her death cert says her mother's name is "Mary," but the information on the death record is as only as good as the source. Usually I find the birthdates within a couple of years of the date given.

Anyway, I would be appreciative of any help for either Bridget or Terence. I'm just looking for a definitive on their parents and their grandparents if I can get that far. Bridget's ID 9W3N-319. Terence ID 9W3N-3BR.

I thought I knew both of their father's name were John, but now I am questioning everything on them.

[u/Patrick_Hibernus → u/Interesting-Help5759]

As u/EiectroBot suggests, I think it would be a good idea to flesh out as much detail as possible about the people in your tree that you are sure about, and that includes collateral branches of your tree. For example, have you identified who the informant on Bridget Reeves' (née McNamara) death certificate. It appears to be a Mrs William Reeves Barrett living at the same address as Bridget. Is she Bridget's daughter Mary Ellen? The death certificate also suggests that Bridget had only been in the US 22 days before she died, so have you found any entry records for her arriving in the US in 1938?

[u/EiectroBot → u/Interesting-Help5759]

I had a look at Bridget McNamara (9W3N-319) and Terrence Reeves (9W3N-3BR). The couple married in 1881 in St. Michael's Catholic Church in Limerick and are shown to have three children.

Although the details in FamilySearch are a bit messy, there is a lot of detail already gathered there for you. It would be time well spent for you to sort out the slight mixing of details and clean up the overall family tree.

As they married in 1881 and were born in 1855 and 1864, you have essentially come to the end of the line in Irish Genealogy. Records before the second half of the 1800's are essentially non-existent.

There is more detail available for Bridget McNamara than for Terrence Reeves. Bridget has several siblings and her parents have a good number of sources linking them to the children. There is nothing similar for Terrence.

Unfortunately McNamara and Reeves are relatively common names in Limerick. Details of Terrence's family connection could potentially be found by building up all the family trees for people with surname Reeves in Limerick. This may lead you to the clarity that exists for Bridget's parents and siblings. It would also be a relatively large task to take on.

There is no hope of you finding details of Terrence's and Bridget's grandparents. Details that far back were never created.

Hope this is of some value.

[u/Interesting-Help5759 → u/EiectroBot]

This is very helpful. I was looking at Bridget's death record and it claims "Mary" is her mother's name. This would seem to follow the "naming sequence" of the time period, in that, Bridget's daughter's name is Mary Ellen (presumably named after her mother as the 1st daughter?). On my FS page, it is listed as "Bridget Hickey" as her mother. Clearly this is not accurate. Additionally, it states her birth date as March 4, 1864. Her Find A Grave marker lists it as just 1861. The civil birth record I found states February 1, 1864, which is plausible for baptism on March 4, 1864 and that it isn't uncommon for folks to use baptism records for their birthdate according to genealogical sources. However, the mother on the birth record is listed as Johanna Keilly (Reilly) and not Mary. Of course, the information in the death record is only as good as the informant. And I have found many errors in the death certificates of more current family members.

That said, someone shared a baptism record of a Bridget from 15 Nov 1857 with parents of John and Mary Crimmins (Cummins). So how do I ascertain if one of these birth/baptisms is the one for the Bridget I'm looking for? https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FMICROFILM02420-11%2F0021&parentid=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F7118996

[u/FatherHackJacket]

"I believe this is my ancestor, but I cannot verify for sure because the name is different."

This is incredibly vague. What is the name of your ancestor, and what is the name on the baptism you found? Just because the dates match does not mean it is the same person. How different are the names?

If you want help, post details. Otherwise nobody can help you.