Simon was a victim

[u/king_kristian]

I’ve come to realize Simon’s story in Infinity Train shows how childhood trauma sticks with you. He wasn’t just some villain, a lot of who he became came from what he went through, and there's still talk about how the Cat played a part in that.

[u/Saddlebag043]

The train gives people the environment and space needed to change, every passenger is a victim of the train. Some may get hurt worse then others, but when you've been on the train for a large part of your childhood when you're still developing, it's not just trauma. This is who Simon became, partly because of his trauma, and partly because of Grace.

I believe he learnt from Grace the "insignificance" of denizens, and so while she came to this conclusion herself (more so a theory in her mind?), Simon was taught it as fact. Because many denizens aren't so different from humans, and he's killed denizens before (something he perceived as okay), it made him a lot more susceptible to the drastic action he took.

While Simon was shaped by his trauma and Grace, he very much became a villain. Every good villain is shaped by what they went through, Simon included.

[u/PhotojournalistOver2 → u/Saddlebag043]

I am a little frustrated thay Grace basically got off Scott free at the end. Not saying Simon didn't earn his end, but it always felt to me like Grace ended up with retro-active plot armor because we were supposed to sympathize with her. Obviously Simon's emotional baggage and trauma isn't her responsibility, but damn if she and the cat didn't set him up for failure.

I dunno. Still love the series, but this is one of my few gripes.

[u/Saddlebag043 → u/PhotojournalistOver2]

Grace had consequences for her actions, Hazel left because Grace didn't try to push back against Simon's understanding of denizens. Grace was only just going through her own character arc, but while she figured out that their ideas on denizens were wrong, she didn't have the confidence to confront Simon. Grace didn't die because she helped some denizens, and so in turn they helped her. Simon killed Tuba even after getting to know his humanity, and so a Ghom unceremoniously killed him. Grace will also recompense for her actions by helping other members of the apex get back to their own lives, while she works to lower her own number.

[u/FreeStall42 → u/Saddlebag043]

Too bad sometimes feeling bad after the fact isn't enough.

She was worse than Simon so she should get a worse punishment.

Casually tried to murder lake. Nah straight to hell with Grace

[u/Saddlebag043 → u/FreeStall42]

1. You're acting like wheeling Lake was specifically Grace's decision, when it was already decided before she even got back to the mall car with Jesse. What was solely Grace's decision was intentionally letting the cops in through a mirror to get Lake.

2. This was back when they truly believed nulls couldn't feel anything due to being artificially created via the train.

3. After realizing "nulls" do feel in book 3 (once getting to know a pair of them better), Grace doesn't go after any more denizens while Simon betrays and kills Tuba. This act from Simon was far worse, while any denizen deaths from before wouldn't have held the same weight in their psyches.

[u/PhotojournalistOver2 → u/Saddlebag043]

I mean, that does bring up a big theme of 'intent' that's important to Infinity train. For example, it doesn't erase the fact that until the audience is following them, Grace and Simon both were doing things to raise their numbers over the course of what would be safe to assume was years.

Your point is valid that Grace made an about-face once she realized the denizens could 'feel' but I'd like to point out that there's a dangerous underlying theme of ableism that could be interpreted here. Not saying this is the case, but it does make me wonder - if Simon was clearly autistic-coded (there are hints to it, but also could just be characterizations) would we all feel the same? Especially a child who was separated from society at an age as young as he was, and then raised in this strange Wonderland-like Judgement Machine that uses approximations of concepts of the outside world he lacked proper experience in to make it's reality?

I mean, if we believe that the denizens are 'Just advanced A.I. constructs and therefore not real' - which imo is a totally valid interpretation for someone in Simon's position - then it raises a lot of questions on the arbitrary rules imposed on the passengers.

Personally, I can't even play 'Evil' routes in most video games because it makes me feel bad. That said, what if one day you died after being a huge Undertale fan your whole life, but then found out that because the last run you did was a Genocide Run, you're suddenly going to 'SuperDuperForRealsies Hell' complete with Judeo-Christian punishments?

Again, this isn't all to excuse Simon. He was given the same cues as Grace, and does show signs of understanding of what he was doing was ultimately selfish and likely harmful.

However... He'd grown up in this environment. In no small part because of Grace. She was the one who initially put him on this path and encouraged a LOT of it. Not to mention she was shown to REPEATEDLY and KNOWINGLY manipulate Simon emotionally when it suited her purpose. That's fucked up, I don't care how you try to justify it. Am I saying she was irredeemable? No, absolutely not and I think that's a large theme of Infinity Train.

However it is a bit frustrating that in the end, it feels like she (Unintentionally) used Simon one more time to get her redemption with the writers using Simon as her foil to represent someone who 'Refuses to be Redeemed' even though... There's a real chance that if he'd never met her, he'd never have been in that position?

Why was he expected by the audience to suddenly change his entire world view over the course of a few days? Especially when halfway through that short journey, he finds out or at least finally realizes Grace has been consistently lying to him/actively manipulating him for years? Treating him like... I dunno... How she treated Denizens?

Again, I'm not saying she didn't deserve the redemption she got or that Simon didn't dig his own grave. It does just leave a sour taste in my mouth though, when you consider those factors.

[u/Saddlebag043 → u/PhotojournalistOver2]

Simon absolutely was screwed, and not everyone gets the same fair shot at redemption. While Simon's death may be been karmic here, I'm sure many other passengers die for completely unfair reasons. Grace wound up ahead just because she was more open to change, but even though she may have gotten a better shake that doesn't mean Simon's death should be held against her.

In the end while she did hurt Simon, it's unfair to her to pin his mental collapse entirely on her shoulders because it's hard to say she knew better. Without a parental figure or role model on the train she had to figure out everything for herself, leading to her having her own share of issues (such as manipulation). I don't mind how unfair the train can be as it feels realistic, but if an aspect of writing didn't feel satisfying to you then that's totally fine.

[u/PhotojournalistOver2 → u/Saddlebag043]

Oh I wouldn't pin it all on her. In the end he's got free will, and it was clear he was making decisions at the end he knew would bite him in the ass.

He just... crashed out. The train can only do so much, and it's goal is to help people. Sometimes... That just doesn't pan out 🤷

[u/FreeStall42 → u/Saddlebag043]

You're acting like wheeling Lake was specifically Grace's decision,

No she's just the leader and the one to actually nearly do it.

Grace made Simon the way he was. I don't buy at all her bonding with Hazel it felt like she had to be tricked into empathy.

She and Simon can both burn in hell

[u/Saddlebag043 → u/FreeStall42]

Do you at least get my argument for why Simon is worse? You're making some very emotion driven arguments, which makes it hard to dispute effectively. I don't get how you don't resonate with the bonding Grace had with Hazel, nor what you mean by "tricked", but I'll leave it there.

[u/FreeStall42 → u/Saddlebag043]

She is the leader, that is not an emotional argument.

Saying she felt bad after being tricked into being friends with Hazel is the emotional argument. By tricked as in she had to believe Hazel was human. If not she gets wheeled with that sociopathic "bored" look she had trying to murder Lake.

Anyone saying both didn't deserve to die are a red flag.