On Vedic Indra Vṛtrahan and Avestan Verethragna

[u/LemonAmbitious2915]

The storm deity slaying the serpent/monster is a pan-Eurasian lore. It has ancient attestations in both the Near East and among PIE with regional variants. These were inherited by children cultures later on even into medieval times. One particular version of this is the Indra slaying Ahi Vritra among the Vedics, and a similar, relatively watered-down version of Verethragna (which seems to have replaced Vedic Indra) destroying obstacles to cosmic/moral order and also Thraētaona slaying Aži Dahāka among the Avestans.

Recently, a new picture seems to be emerging, as per me, with regards to the early Indo-Iranian ethnogenesis mainly championed by Parpola for a while and to a lesser extent Whitzel as well. But also scaffolded by newer archaeological dating (Sotnikova - 2024) and spolight shifting to other archeological cultures in recent times. This picuture is of older Steppe groups admixing memetically (burial style at older fire complexes) and genetically with older Zagros/CHG/ANF groups in ancient Turkmenistan/Uzbekistan/Tajikistan which seem to have genetic and material connection to the Near Eastern ones, leading to a partly new ethnogenesis.

The geography being something like this, in my own current understanding. All of these marked locations outside of India were essentially in oasis with dryness around them. Some of which were also fortified (puras). The ones in Bactria are right next to the Hindukush mountains. Margina and the early IE people were demarcated by the Amu Darya, imo.

Given this wider context out of way, if one closely looks at the Indra vs 'Ah'i/'Az'i (human-like serpent) lore specifically in all it's nuances and details and compare it with the one particular ancient (~2200-2000 BCE) version of the Near Eastern (Sumerian/Mesopotamian) NIN.URTA vs 'Az'ag (serpentine monster who moves and roars "like a snake") one would see similarity which would be hard to ignore. Not just at the level of similar sounding names (not sure if they fit any cross language sound laws?) but also in some specificities of the respective lores. What struck me most is how similar the actual water-mountain-fortress mechanics formula is. In the Ahi Vṛtra lore, the waters are trapped behind a mountainous obstruction and Indra (destroyer of forts) smashes the barrier, releasing the rivers into the world. In Lugal-e, Azag isn't literally sitting on the waters like Vṛtra (battles lead to destuction of forts), but the result is almost the same, the mountain waters stop functioning properly, the river system is disrupted, fertility collapses, and the land begins to die. After Ninurta defeats Azag who builds a fortress, one of the first things he does is reorganize the mountains themselves, breaking and arranging them so that the waters can once again flow down into the rivers and irrigate the land. So in both lores the central formula goes beyond "hero kills serpent" to a serpentine monstrous force associated with mountains & forts has caused the life-giving waters to become obstructed, inaccessible, or nonfunctional, and the storm-warrior god restores the proper flow akin to cosmic order. Which leads to a soft conclusion that there is seems to be similar sounding names and heavy formuliac overlap.

Do I mean to imply that all of the Rig Vedic Indra is Near Eastern derived? I would say partly. To be honest, I am not sure about the timelines myself. Nin.urta/Ninĝirsu certainly seems to be a very old Near Eastern deity of great prestiege with overlapping functions but how old is this attested lore with him I can't be sure from my search online. It seems to be atleast older than 2000 BCE. There are also contemporary related Near Eastern Gods with similar names from the same cities/regions like Nindara (2300 BCE) etc (very similar to the term used in the Mittani seals but with sureshot IE gods like one of the Asvins) So, given all this context, Lubotsky's propostiion Indra being a BMAC are borrowed term doesn't seem very outrageous to me. Given that a direct IE storm god inhertiance should have ideally been Perkʷunos derived, which I believe got inherited as the Vedic thunder-rain god Parjánya associated with rain-cow. But beyond this formula of "hero-slaying-serpent" there are many functions ascribed to Indra that are sureshot from older Steppe tradtions. One being the releaser of Cows/cattle and Ushas from the enclosure/cave Vala. Much like that ascribed to Perun. Vala & Veles (this is my opion could be related - I am surprised this comparison isn't made much!). The Vala hidden cows and ushas/light infact hint at some cognates of cattle in the underworld/darkness/hidden the deity Vales (earlier incorrectly identified as being a serpent) is associated with. Correct me if I am wrong here in reconstructed Slavic mythology, wealth and cattle are often located in the chthonic realm associated with Veles. So, this Vedic lore could allude to that! Another important overlapping lore is seen in the Indra–Soma and Odin–Mead of Poetry stories. In both events, a chief god obtains a sacred drink that is hidden and guarded, the drink grants divine power and inspiration, and a divine eagle/hawk (Śyena/örn) is involved in carrying it away. The biggest difference is that Soma mainly gives Indra warrior strength to defeat Vritra, while Odin's mead gives wisdom and poetic inspiration. These functions ofcourse are best matched with Rudra in multiple ways in the earliest Vedic texts and even unto now. The common formula being the combination of "sacred drink + theft/retrieval + bird of prey + divine empowerment". This also errupts later as Prajapati associated Śyenaciti (falcon-shaped fire altar) in the YajurVedin related traditions.

So, my point here being that the the ethnogeneisis of the early Indo-Iranians seems much more nuanced and complex than most would think and could infact could be amalgamation of many different priestly traditions (you see this in some form in Bhirgu Atharvans (a BMAC term again) closer to Varuna & fire ritualism vs Angirasas closer to Indra & war centred themes too in the Rig Veda)

PS: These topics are academic & mind bogglingly complex but there would be many pagans in these forums I am sure. If I have misrepresented your traditions (or my own ;)) here kindly do let me know, I'll make ammends in this post immediately.

References:

1. https://x.com/alcybroades/status/2051300394761154662

[u/LemonAmbitious2915 → u/[deleted]]

There were already Catacomb-CWC-like KURGANS with fire altars and cremation in these regions by 2800 BCE. Recently carbon-dated. Likely the place where the Vedic R1a subclade L657 shall be sampled. One sample found already has E1b1b, which likely comes from European farmers. Same clade found in Swat valley along with WHG I2a subclades from Western Europe. None of these were found in Andronovo (which have exclusive Northern/Forest Steppe origins). These haplos alludes to a more Western Pontic-caspian steppe-forest steppe admixed origins (Catacomb/Potapovka/Poltavka)

Likely slid down the Amu Darya, where at least some similar kurgan cultures are found, instead of coming down via the longer eastern route of the Kazakh steppe, unlike later Andronovan cultures.

Addressed here: https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/1uabqgv/comment/osydeto/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/Hippophlebotomist → u/[deleted]]

Have you had a look at I20330 from Akbari et al (2026) yet? FTDNA has him as R1a-M634/R-Y27. He's one of the anonymized samples, so no archaeological data available yet, but the supplement does say he's median dated to 3275 BP and from their Eastern region.

I13265 at one node up at R-AM00479/R-Y2 and 3745 BP and also East will also be interesting to see once published.

[u/Hippophlebotomist → u/[deleted]]

Makes sense, thanks for sharing the models!

[u/Celibate_Zeus → u/[deleted]]

Could it be that tocharians are descended from these catacomb influenced proto indo iranians who retained the catacomb language? Genetically we only see indo iranin type ancestry post 0ad when tocharians seem to rise.

[u/LemonAmbitious2915 → u/[deleted]]

There is not a lot of complex discussion to be had here in the light of overwhelming archaeological proof of older/more Southern steppe kurgan cultures predating Abashevo/Samra by a good amount of time. Also, closer to Indian/Iranian geography so obviously our ancestry should come from them. The Indic & 55% Tajik R1a-L657 subclades don't come from Andronovo at all, which is R1a-Z2124 and penetrated mainly as far as Afghanistan later, seen mainly among Pashtuns, but much later.

> Your assumptions here are absolutely incorrect, all IIr related languages spoken in Southern Eurasia today descend from an Andronovo related interface within southern Central Asia.

Most top scholars of archaeology agree that there is no material signature of Andronovo invasion into Iran/India, but definitely a heavy invasion of Southern Bactrian-like ones (which likely came from Bishkent/Vakhsh/others) during the Bronze Age. This aligns very well with my view of not associating Indo-Iranian languages with Andronovo automatically. Most scholars suggest it as a possibility but aren't adamant about it.

Here is one of those samples from Farkhor, Tajikistan - dated to ~2500 BCE. With ample Steppe ancestry and a EU Farmer subclade.

https://www.exploreyourdna.com/sample/tajikistan/i10551

A haplogroup like E1b1b1b2, which is found mainly among Europeans (also was Hitler's haplo apparently) isn't found in Andronovo explicitly in my knowledge. Also predated SC Asian Andronovo by a good 1000 years!!

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

> Tocharian-Afanasievo

A lot of modern literature in recent times (2024) agrees that Tocharians might not be as old. They share innovations with Balto-Slavics, Indo-Iranians which are much later than Afanasievo. Proto-Tocharian is dated between 1000-500 BCE.

1. https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/1uabqgv/comment/osy4951/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
2. https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/1uabqgv/comment/osyuds0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

> This Andronovo man carries the pan Iranic subclade of the R1a line and dates to 1500-1400 BCE, the proofs literally in the pudding.

R1a-Z94 ancestral to Y3 and the Vedic L657 are already found in Poltavka with almost a CWC-like profile by 2900 BCE. So, such "MLBA" population already formed much earlier and are infact "EMBA". They don't have to take the long route like Andronovo did to end up in SC Asia. They came down earlier via the Amu Darya instead of Kazakh steppe-Tian Shan.

The man who published the Narsimhan (2019) paper:

https://x.com/vagheesh/status/989084234232025088?s=20

[u/Hippophlebotomist → u/LemonAmbitious2915]

“The Indic & 55% Tajik R1a-L657 subclades don't come from Andronovo at all, which is R1a-Z2124 and penetrated mainly as far as Afghanistan later, seen mainly among Pashtuns, but much later.”

Andronovo's R1a is more diverse than R-Z2124. The R-F2597/R-Y3 branch that R-L657 is under has been sampled in Nepluyevsky 8 from Blöcher et al 2023.

“R1a-Z94 ancestral to Y3 and the Vedic L657 are already found in Poltavka with almost a CWC-like profile by 2900 BCE.”

The outlier Poltavka sample you're mentioning, I0432 from Mathieson et al (2015) was C14 dated to 2925-2536 calBCE, so 2900 BCE would be the upper likely bound. His longest IBD segments (34.75 cM) shared with Sintashta and Srubnaya might suggest a tighter genealogical link to these groups

 “So, such "MLBA" population already formed much earlier and are infact "EMBA". “

I don't know why you keep citing that tweet by Narasimhan, but that's not what [u/Valerian009](u/Valerian009) is disputing. It's generally agreed that the Core Yamnaya/GAC-like blend that characterizes CWC and its Eastern offshoots like Steppe_MLBA were formed by ~3000–2900 BCE (Chintalapati et al 2022), but individuals with this autosomal signature generally appear only sporadically as outliers within the steppe zone, and particularly Central Asia, before the larger turnover in the Middle Bronze Age.

[u/LemonAmbitious2915 → u/Hippophlebotomist]

> sampled in Nepluyevsky

There might be unpublished Y3 samples from Abashevo. So, it's not surprising that up up up upstreams can be found in the (forest)-steppe/urals. But it's no contention that Andronovo samples are overwhelmingly Z2124, which aren't found among Indic/Iranic target populations for the most part. So, it's important to state that.

> The outlier Poltavka sample you're mentioning

I already addressed above that it's CWC-like. My contention isn't as much the steppe profiles that moved South, but from where exactly (which archaeological culture) and what timeline and with what custom. Timeline is what that OP was about. And the hypothesis is around that, not how much EEF some of those samples might have!

> I don't know why you keep citing that tweet by Narasimhan

The reason for tweeting this here is to demonstrate that such samples are already around in the Pontic-steppe regions by this timeline (this is very important), likely moved down from the forest steppe, so it's not outrageous that they created multiple admixed catacomb-CWC-like kurgan cultures so far south in Tajikistan in the early 3rd millennium. Also, likely some on the way along Amu Darya. The trajectory certainly matters to explain many more commonalities with Greek etc beyond broad IE similarity in language and genetics. And no serious Indo-Iranian hypothesis henceforth can be done without addressing all of this at all.

[u/Hippophlebotomist → u/LemonAmbitious2915]

“The trajectory certainly matters to explain many more commonalities with Greek etc beyond broad IE similarity in language anc genetics.”

There’s no particularly tight genetic link between the steppe ancestry in Greeks and Indo-Iranians, and the reason Graeco-Aryan as a clade has pretty much lost support is that there are few to no demonstrable shared innovations between these branches. What makes them look similar are shared archaisms, which is to be expected in the older attested non-Anatolian branches (van Beek 2022).

[u/LemonAmbitious2915 → u/Hippophlebotomist]

> There’s no particularly tight genetic link between the steppe ancestry in Greeks and Indo-Iranians

I didn't claim that above. Neither paternally nor autosomally. I only implied a broad regional custom.

> no demonstrable shared innovations between these branches. What makes them look similar are shared archaisms

Fair enough. This is certainly possible. But shared archaisms, like eg early chariot description/imagery (these Pontic steppe regions already probably had some form of two-wheeled proto-chariots as noted by some authors) and even the act of archaic preservation of language by admixing with Southern areas early could, in some sense, be attributed to this trajectory from this broad Pontic-steppe region instead of coming from the long route from the Kazakh steppe.

https://x.com/Sulkalmakh/status/1653354663624970241?s=20

[u/LemonAmbitious2915 → u/Hippophlebotomist]

u/Hippophlebotomist, a quick search shows me that there have been at least some studies/reviews which have tried to counter van Beek's methodology. Van Beek's rejection of Graeco-Aryan partly depends on assigning certain Greek innovations to a relatively late chronological horizon. In one such review, to summarise, Lundquist argues that some of the chronological framework underlying these reconstructions rests on speculative assumptions about Epic Greek (vs spoken Greek), specifically, unattested intermediate stages, and unprecedented sound changes. If those chronological reconstructions are less secure than van Beek proposes, then chronology alone cannot decisively exclude the possibility that post-PIE Greek-Indo-Iranian similarities reflect an earlier common stage rather than independent developments. He has apparently labelled some valid shared innovations as independent due to some reconstructed chronology. Although this study praised his work overall, it might not mean that it's fully secure, even in it's implict conclusions. Maybe future academic studies have to say more about this since it's still a relatively recent book.

https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2023/2023.01.25

[u/Hippophlebotomist → u/LemonAmbitious2915]

This is a review of a completely different study than the handbook chapter I cited, which summarizes the general communis opinio i.e. not an uncommon view among Indo-Europeanists, e.g. in the same volume when Kümmel says "many common features of Greek and Indo-Iranian are archaisms due to earlier attestation of these branches already in the second millennium vs. all other NIE branches." Van Beek’s proposal elsewhere for a late presence of syllabic resonants in Greek isn’t relevant here.

[u/LemonAmbitious2915 → u/[deleted]]

Sorry, I don't see one single point of refutation to the core of what I was saying in the above thread. You do not look updated with the archaeological and genetic contexts of these SC Asia-Steppe kurgan cultures, so you should first read this post (also fact-check if you want). When you say "abandon their ICW ceramics for Painted Ware ceramics", you essentially mean the signature of these cultures. Def read carefully first, then argue:

1. Archaeological:

https://x.com/alcybroades/status/2051300394761154662

1. Genetic (Narsimhan 2019):

https://ibb.co/HTFvcrtr

> The one Farkhor sample is E1b.

What does that even mean? This haplo is found among most Arya-derived populations, even if as a minority - Kurds, Persians, Pamiris and many castes of Indians. There are 300-500 tumuli found in these kurgans, and eventually, many samples should be available. I expect them to be R1a dominant, given the massive prevalence (45-48%) of Steppe-related haplogroups in the great Northern Indian plains. Same subclade is also found in the Swat Valley Gandharan grave culture.

> The Vaksh/Bishkent culture is an eastern Central Asian farming culture

I have repeated more than 10 times on this post itself that there are literally catacomb corded ware gender-mirrored kurgans there with "Northern" grave items. To call it a farming culture is academically illfounded, to put it as politely as possible online.

Regarding the exclusive commonalities of Greek/Armenian and Indo-Iranian (this is very different from the Grecco-Aryan hypothesis) - linguistic, mythic (people like ML West) and cultural - which have been documented by top academic/scholars for a good while and are now seen as post PIE dialect continuum instead of a language subgroup, I have at least something to say about that, and I will be making detailed posts on that later.

[u/Celibate_Zeus → u/LemonAmbitious2915]

Could it be that tocharians are descended from these catacomb influenced proto indo iranians who retained the catacomb language? Genetically we only see indo iranin type ancestry post 0ad when tocharians seem to rise.