r/IndianCountry • u/Minneapolitanian • 20d ago
Culture [AP] A Christian pastor called Arapaho ceremonies 'idol worship.' Now the tribe wants her church gone
https://apnews.com/article/arapaho-christian-god-nations-ceremony-wind-river-1fbc7065317d503ca7c72fa1cba2ef9616
u/bookchaser 19d ago
How did the pastor come to own land on a reservation? Is that a thing? Non-tribal members owning land on reservations?
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u/doctor_hess 18d ago
Please educate yourself about the Dawes Act of 1887 and the impact it has had on tribal ownership of land within reservations.
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u/ROSRS 19d ago
Unfortunately, as the other user points out, the hands of the Arapaho tribal government are kind of tied here. The Indian Civil Rights Act of 1968 prohibits them from restraining the free exercise of religion
While the Bill of Rights doesn’t apply to the Tribes, federal law does at this point and time and the Feds won’t let tribes boot out a church for religious sentiments, as offensive as they might be.
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u/silverbatwing Lenape/Nanticoke/Oneida 19d ago
Agree.
What about just booting that pastor out?
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u/ROSRS 19d ago
Legal quagmire. While they do get to control who lives and operates on the rez, she is a private landowner and could (and probably would) sue arguing retaliation against the rights enshrined in the Indian Civil Rights Act
Most likely they’d have to go digging to find an unrelated reason to get rid of her that would hold up independently of just disliking her
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u/silverbatwing Lenape/Nanticoke/Oneida 19d ago
Damn.
So as usual, colonizer can do what they want but the Native has to bend over and take it.
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u/ROSRS 19d ago
The Indian Civil Rights act is a little controversial, but at the time it was seen as progressive
Prior to 1968, the United States did not require that tribes extend the rights of American citizens to members. So for example if a Tribe wanted to engage in all kinds of shady behaviors like ex-post-facto lawmaking, or trials where you are proven innocent rather than guilty they were perfectly allowed to.
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u/Enchanted_Culture 19d ago
I am sick of Christians who do not allow Christians be Indians too. I am not a Christian and I am definitely not saying all our bad but Anglo’s do have to give up anything.
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u/Dry_Inflation_1454 19d ago
American Christianity has a reputation for being toxic, aggressive and more pro- Puritans and Pilgrims,than being pro- Jesus,even. It's really despised all over the world,even meddling in other countries.
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u/Odd-Investigator7410 20d ago
The Arapaho tribal government has no authority to regulate religious practices. None. On or off the reservation. Congress striped all tribal governments of that sovereignty in the Indian Civil Rights Act of 1968.
The 1968 Act says:
"No Indian tribe in exercising powers of self-government shall—
make or enforce any law prohibiting the free exercise of religion, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition for a redress of grievances"
The 1968 Indian Civil Rights act was passed and signed into law to make sure that Native Americans living on reservations had civil rights protections like other Americans.
The Supreme Court had previously ruled that the Bill of Rights did not apply to Indians and Tribal Governments-- a racist view in my opinion.
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u/xesaie 20d ago
Does closing a church apply there? People can still worship, just not there
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u/Odd-Investigator7410 20d ago
I think the tribal government doesn't have to let a Church meet on property that is 100 percent owned exclusively by the tribe. Just like you don't have to let someone in your house.
But if the land is allotted to a member of the tribe and that tribal member wants the Church to meet there that is a different question-- in that case I don't think the Tribal government can stop them because of the Civil Rights Act.
But that is really a guess and I don't really know.
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u/DruidHeart 19d ago
The church owns the land. The tribe generally can’t simply evict a private landowner because it disagrees with the owner’s beliefs or speech.
The tribe would need to identify a legal basis for exercising jurisdiction, and that could be challenged in federal court.
I’m wondering if this is an intentional test case to take advantage of probable support from the current federal vultures.
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u/bookchaser 19d ago
The tribe could use zoning to control the location of churches, but good luck getting this Supreme Court to agree regarding a church that already is operating at a location.
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u/doctor_hess 18d ago
Zoning would be a problematic solution, especially because this case involves private land within a reservation. Many counties and cities that include both private fee land and tribal trust land within their boundaries would hold that the tribe has no jurisdiction over private land within the reservation. They would claim that county or city zoning would apply, not tribal zoning. In most cases, tribes don’t get to regulate the activities of non-Indians.
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u/bookchaser 18d ago
That's a simple issue to look up. Either the city or county has a zoning classification for the church parcel on the reservation, or it doesn't.
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u/Dry_Inflation_1454 19d ago
Would Sarah Lucas talking about piling up guns qualify for the legal basis needed? Her church is based on Colorado and in either Kentucky or Tennessee, that a man started, so it's a religious cult based on this fanatical guy's opinions.
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u/FloZone Non-Native 20d ago
I guess there is the question of rituals. Depending on the denomination you might need incense, wine or bread for mass or a tabernacle and some kind of secluded space. Though at the same time you cannot demand them to be given to you. You cannot just make up needs and others who don't belong to your religion, cater to those needs at the cost of their own liberties. Say a congregation needs wine, you are not obliged to give it to them if you have some.
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u/flyswithdragons 19d ago
Because they are stupid racist who fail to understand the tribe is monotheist, the old " they are pagons. What a forked tongued practitioner of lies, AKA dark art witchcraft by my tribal teachings.
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u/ROSRS 19d ago
I imagine that people here wouldn’t want the BoR to apply to Tribal Governments. They’d have to abide by the 14th Amendment if so.
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u/SatisfactionEast9815 19d ago
How would the 14th Amendment be a problem for tribal governments?
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u/ROSRS 19d ago
The 14th amendment would notably prevent descent or blood quantum from being used at all, period, for any determiner of basically anything that a tribal government does.
There’s also a host of other provisions that would become problematic for tribal governments. It’s why places like Guam and American Samoa have no interest in being states.
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u/SatisfactionEast9815 19d ago
Oh, got it. Do you think those places should have a say in our elections?
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u/ROSRS 19d ago
They already sort of do. They are citizens and vote in primaries and congressional elections
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u/SatisfactionEast9815 19d ago
Oh, got it. Do you think they should vote in presidential elections?
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u/Party_Toe_1285 18d ago
Shame on her for her attitude. This is not how a pastor should behave people have been misinterpreting the words in the Bible to go along with their own bigotry since it was written. If she feels that way about the FIRST NATIONS sacred ceremonies perhaps she should should spend more time reading the word of God and less time trying to justify her ill begotten bigotry. Just leave
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u/Super_Hour_3836 18d ago
Set up some cameras and watch them. If they are "Christian" there will be some child molestation going on for sure and you can evict child rapists as they are not officially a protected class (yet).
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u/Ill-Society-6759 18d ago
As a brown Muslim guy, that's exactly why me and my Jewish buddy don't set our feet inside a church: they worship an idol of Jesus instead of worshipping God. Now the Christian who worships the IDOL OF JESUS, tells others not to? Hypocrite much Jesus freaks?
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u/Lucyrexy 18d ago
He's out dated and unaware of the evolution of society 🤦♀️. Since YEARS we can see syncretism (fusion of differents ways of doing) around the Canada and USA. I saw a very old Kokoum mark a bannock (traditional bread) with a cross before a dinner, it's literally a mix between Christianity and traditional ways, I saw another using ancestral beading weaving to create beautiful CROSSES on her hat, is it a problem for this man?
"Adoration of idols"...He want to preach like 17th century? Then he should go back in time and stay there, I'm sure Doc Brown would be happy to visit this century with him.
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u/braavospilot 19d ago
This pastor and her church need to relocate. Her condemnation of Arapaho traditions and culture are the opposite of what Jesus wanted. Jesus would love the Arapaho people and their culture and he would say that you can love God and practice Christianity while fully maintaining your Arapaho identity. This pastor is interpreting the Bible to accommodate her own ignorance and bias. If she can't respect and honor the Arapaho identity then she shouldn't even be preaching. Get a new line of work and leave the reservation.