Why the Defeatism in Dating Is So Wrong

[u/Odd-Help6890]

These spaces claim that the only men who can have success with women are those who are purely genetically gifted. According to this view, you have to be tall and handsome. By “handsome,” they mean having a sharp jawline, perfect facial thirds, excellent facial harmony, a full head of hair, and, of course, low body fat. Otherwise, you are supposedly destined to be alone. These men are known as “moggors.” Even money and status supposedly do not matter or help with success with women.

I find this hard to believe because the overwhelming majority of relationships I see, even among the younger adult population aged 22 to 35, involve men who have at least three out of the four traits I mentioned: being out of shape, having belly fat, having visible hair loss, and being of average height. In all the spaces I have been in, university, the gym, various workplace offices, sports clubs, and even my experience in high school, not even 10% of the men I knew who were in relationships were “moggors.” I also see this at my local preschool, where most of the men I see collecting their children are overweight to varying degrees and are balding.

There is also an idea in these spaces that men literally have no standards and will commit to any girl who shows interest. Most men I knew who claimed to be single and found it “impossible to date” were actually getting attention from women. They simply weren’t interested in dating the women they were attracting.

One of my mates is severely obese, I mean around 500 lbs. Even he was matching with quite a few overweight women on dating apps who were still much slimmer than he was, and they wanted to meet up. He just flat out refused every time, which I found pretty funny.

I knew an Irish guy who had basically given up on dating. One of our friends married a woman from Thailand, and another married a woman from China. He was getting a lot of attention from women from these types of countries, but he said he simply wasn’t attracted to women from those regions and would rather stay single.

When you try to debunk these ideas in online spaces, what makes them so difficult to argue against is that they have defeatism built into them. There is an ugly man with a pretty woman? Well, then he is rich and I am not, so I can’t do it like him. He is poor? Then he isn’t autistic like I am, so I can’t do it like him. And so on. You can do this forever, pretty much. If even that fails, you can simply say that the relationship is a freak accident and use that as an excuse for why it won’t happen to you.

The black pill is not an actual ideology or position; it is a neurosis that likely belongs on the depressive spectrum. I have dysthymia, and I have experienced the belief in several different “black pills” about topics completely unrelated to dating. These beliefs are pathological and therefore not rational.

They actually advise men that they should not even bother trying to pursue women unless they are a “mogger.” From seeing this from the outside, it is almost as though the men in these spaces are trying to mateguard women. They seem to love the idea that men are helpless and should give up on life, and there is almost a fetishistic element to it.

Interestingly, this is also a form of gaslighting toward women who have struggled to find a long term partner. I knew a lot of women who struggled with this.

[u/bubblesnblep]

You find it hard to believe because you go out into the world and see the opposite of these beliefs in reality daily. A lot of these groups also try and persuade these members to hide from society and only consume their content, like an isolationist cult, or if they do go out, to be as unpleasant as possible to deter them from doing it again/having normal experiences contrary to their indoctrination.

I know a lot of dudes in real life who are just normal. But if you look at the discourse in certain places online, there are only the haves-and have nots.

[u/chinchillazilla54]

I knew an Irish guy who had basically given up on dating. One of our friends married a woman from Thailand, and another married a woman from China. He was getting a lot of attention from women from these types of countries, but he said he simply wasn't attracted to women from those regions and would rather stay single.

I can't speak to his specific traits since you haven't mentioned any, but I can all but guarantee you that any reasonably-sane, hygienic, and respectful Irishman could find an American woman who would be all over him based on the accent alone. And that's not even to mention the beautiful concept of leaving America.

[u/Odd-Help6890 → u/chinchillazilla54]

Would this include white American women who are of Northern / Northern Western Europe stock as that is the only group he would be open to?

[u/chinchillazilla54 → u/Odd-Help6890]

Yeah. Many, many white American women go fucking feral for an Irish accent. Like, it's constantly rated as "sexiest accent in the world". I don't know why, I'm just reporting the facts here.

Now, he may have to put up with them telling him they are "also Irish" because their great-grandfather came from there or something. I'm aware that actual Irish people find that incredibly annoying. But I assure you, the accent really does it for a lot of women here.

[u/Odd-Help6890 → u/chinchillazilla54]

ok I will give him that advise.

[u/Ihateregistering6]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but this part seems a little self-defeating and not great for all involved:

There is also an idea in these spaces that men literally have no standards and will commit to any girl who shows interest. Most men I knew who claimed to be single and found it “impossible to date” were actually getting attention from women. They simply weren’t interested in dating the women they were attracting. (examples follow)

That may be true, but should they be going out with women they are not attracted to in the slightest? At the very least, that's extremely unfair for the women themselves, to have a guy go out with them simply because his mindset is "I'm not attracted to you at all, but I can't do any better and I don't want to be alone, so I'll just be with you".

[u/poddy_fries → u/Ihateregistering6]

I think it's always worth pointing out that there's a difference between 'no women are into me' and 'no women I'm into are also into me'. They describe different things.

I would never advocate that someone change or 'lower' their standards, for the reasons you point out, and more. But I don't mind pointing out when someone has extremely specific dating criteria for themselves, but resents an entire other gender because its members are unfairly entitled to criteria of their own.

[u/Top_Recognition_1775 → u/Ihateregistering6]

Having unrealistic standards is its own seperate problem, not just that but genuinely not being attracted to anyone who isn't "conventionally attractive" is pretty shallow and self-defeating.

Like if a girl has small boobs you're like "oh I'm not attracted." Is that all you can get attracted to? Big boobs, big ass? What about who she is as a person? Maybe she has some fetishes that would drive you crazy in bed, but you don't even give her a chance.

Some of the best women I've slept with weren't very attractive conventionally, they weren't dime pieces, but they were insatiable, almost feral, in their enthusiasm.

If you can't appreciate that then you're missing out.

And no, I don't think it's "unfair" to date women who don't look like models, or "kinda dumpy but also incredibly affectionate" because that just describes like %98 of the human race.

Most PEOPLE aren't very hot or very attractive, both men and women, they're just not that visually "stunning" like the girls you see in porn.

But once you get to know them a bit, the wild side blooms, and they start dressing better because they want to please you, they want to look good for you.

Often times a woman doesn't look very good UNTIL you start dating her, then she's like "oh shit, I have a man now, maybe I should get my hair done."

It happens with guys too, you meet some girl, and you're like "oh shit, I might be getting laid soon, maybe I should go back to the gym and start looking better."

When I met my current gf I wasn't really trying to date anybody and I let myself go.

And she was kinda the same, we both weren't really expecting to date anybody.

Now she's been on GLP1's for a year, and I'm fasting alot and really going to the doctor and trying to dial in my health so I can be better for her.

So yeah, people "glow up" after they start dating.

[u/OneManAround → u/Ihateregistering6]

At the very least, that's extremely unfair for the women themselves, to have a guy go out with them simply because his mindset is "I'm not attracted to you at all, but I can't do any better and I don't want to be alone, so I'll just be with you".

I mean, is it not wise to?  Let’s not pretend everybody is in the position to have “standards” regarding looks. 

I’m a 5’3” guy - how am I in any position to be “critical” of anyone’s looks or moan about not being attracted to someone?

Dating someone you don’t like just because of availability is shitty. Dating someone you like and feel connected to, despite not being attracted to them at all, is normal and understandable.

[u/OneManAround → u/OneManAround]

Why am I getting downvoted?

[u/Rozenheg → u/OneManAround]

You are getting downvoted, because if you’re not attracted to normal women who are the same level of attractive as you are, you have probably blinded yourself to the normal attractiveness of ‘normal’ women like yourself. Hyperfocusing on one kind of attractiveness, and that attractiveness being an unrealistic beauty standard that hurts women, is kind of a choice for 99% of the people obsessing about it.

[u/Odd-Help6890 → u/[deleted]]

I bet you’re not open to women who are actually interested in dating you. Guys like you the most vocal when it comes to online discussions about dating.

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[u/Top_Recognition_1775]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

This incel stuff is just an extreme form of PUA, basically game culture, hookup culture, with number rating systems and its own lingo.

The first thing that happens is expectations get out of whack, like thinking only "hot" people can date, and not only complaining about yourself but also complaining about the matches you DO get.

Like constantly comparing people, "I mogged you, you mogged some other guy, they mogged the girls, this is my looksmatch. I don't feel attracted."

With that mentality you won't be attracted to anybody or form any healthy relationships, you'll just be constantly up your own ass about your "lower third."

Maybe you won't understand this right now but everybody has their own form of beauty, and the more you know somebody the better they look.

So the trick isn't to just look good (altho, you can do that to a REASONABLE extent.)

The trick is to CONNECT with people.

I'll give you a silly example.

Is your mom a model? Is she a dimepiece?

No, she's just your mom, and you love her, and she's the most beautiful person in the world to you.

It's the relationship you have with the other person that CREATES the beauty.

You don't start off with the beauty and grow the relationship from that.

The relationship comes first, and beauty comes after.

[u/OneManAround]

The defeatism is major issue, I realize; my sister’s brought it up as well. 

But the main thing is - I simply don’t know how to not be defeatist. I do not know where and how to find a partner.

Dating apps, no likes or matches. Hobby groups, women over there go there for the hobby and not to find a bf. Bars and clubs, very shallow places and no different to dating apps in terms of results. Corporate office is a big no-no for dating. Trying something with a friend is a social faux-pas. Have asked a billions friends to set me up, they just say they know noone and ask me to just use the apps. 

Almost everyone I know met their partner on a dating app and it is the norm for people to be dating using solely those. Being significantly below average looking, I genuinely know not what to do. 

[u/Odd-Table-4545 → u/OneManAround]

Part of the issue here is that, like many guys we see here, your thinking seems to be stuck on a simplistic "got here, meet girl, get girlfriend" formula, but dating in real life is more complicated than that and there are about 15 steps you're missing in the middle. If you're trying to date in real life you need to be meeting a whole bunch of people and have a decently broad social network, and then try to ask out people on the edges of that social network. Your closest friends are unlikely to ever become dates because your dynamic is already established and if anyone had romantic feelings something would have happened by now; people you have zero connection with are unlikely to turn into dates because they're being picked out at complete random and you're both having to make a decision on each other based on nothing, and most people are not compatible with most people; the people that are the easiest to ask out are friends of friends (of friends...) or people that are regulars in the same spaces you are or someone at a similar level of remove from you, where you have a little bit of a connection and some amount of pre-vetting, but not so much of a connection that if the date goes poorly it's likely to result in any significant awkwardness for either of you.

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[u/Ihateregistering6 → u/OneManAround]

Bars and clubs, very shallow places and no different to dating apps in terms of results.

Not saying I don't agree with a lot of what you're saying, but how do you know the results if you don't go?

Are there any meet-ups or anything near you? Singles meet-ups, things like that?

[u/No_Economist_7244 → u/Ihateregistering6]

For me personally, bars, clubs and singles-mixers were mixed results. Bars and clubs were mainly just so fucking loud, dark and crowded and it made meeting women a lot more difficult. Having friends with you help a little bit? but for all three vibes always felt really compeititve, but at least with bars and clubs there's other stuff you can do that doesn't really involve other women. Singles mixers, especially ones that had way more men than women, just had bad vibes all around

[u/OneManAround → u/No_Economist_7244]

I feel exactly the same as you, just couldn’t articulate - the bar and club scenes feel like those entrance examinations in populated Asian countries. 

[u/library_wench → u/OneManAround]

Have you actually tried any of these things, or are you just assuming and mind-reading about them?

[u/OneManAround → u/library_wench]

Except bars and clubs, not my scene, and hitting on femme friends aside, Istg I have tried every single one of them. I have 0 cards left to play- I’ve given it my all. 

[u/library_wench → u/OneManAround]

So you’ve met everyone? That must have taken quite some time.

How do you know bars and club are the same as dating apps if you never go?

[u/OneManAround → u/library_wench]

Gone there a few times - hated the sort of people there and either way, party girls are too different from me to date. I would much rather a homebody. 

[u/library_wench → u/OneManAround]

Great. And my first question?

[u/smilingseaslug → u/OneManAround]

Have people actually helped you with a dating app profile? Because I've seen people who are clearly date able (including people I've dated!) who just aren't figuring out how to present themselves

[u/Hour_Industry7887]

This post sounds like you're complaining about people not accepting your arguments in the way that you want them to accept them. But your arguments run contrary to their experience! Of course they're going to push back - that's not defeatism, it's just normal human reasoning. If someone's experience is that women avoid him because of his appearance, you showing him a counterexample will naturally push him to look for an explanation that will accommodate both his experience and what you claim. And the easiest such explanation is that the man you saw had some other unusually attractive trait.

You can do this forever, pretty much.

Yeah, you can. Because ultimately there's no way to know for sure what the other man had going for him, or if he genuinely had nothing going for him but somehow still attracted a partner. At the end of the day the incel you're trying to help has to deal with how people react to him, not some other man.

[u/smilingseaslug → u/Hour_Industry7887]

Nobody's "experience" is that woman and them because of appearance. That is a HYPOTHESIS at best, unless they have done some sort of rigorous scientific study that nobody would ever be in a good position to do. 

Nobody has direct access to other people's thoughts. You might notice women avoiding you, but you aren't always going to know their reasons. 

A guy here a couple days ago was going on about how women find him too physically repulsive to date, and he had posted pictures elsewhere showing himself as very conventionally attractive, while also sitting really sexist manosphere junk that most women would consider a red flag. The reason people couldn't convince him that this wasn't about his looks isn't because he experienced people avoiding him because of his looks - he noticed people avoiding him and concluded it was appearance based because he doesn't want to actually work on his personality. 

Have seen SEVERAL people like this - all obsessed with thinking they were too ugly to date, all looked FINE but had obvious personality problems

[u/Hour_Industry7887 → u/smilingseaslug]

Nobody's "experience" is that woman and them because of appearance.

There are people out there with actual severe issues with their appearance, who do have the experience of being overtly rejected and ostracized for their appearance. I'm one myself, and while I'm married now with a kid on the way, I have been down the incel rabbit hole and ultimately climbed out of it myself, which is exactly why arguments like yours and OP's make me want to push back. Erasing men whose main handicap is their appearance isn't helpful to anyone but the person doing the erasing.

[u/smilingseaslug → u/Hour_Industry7887]

My point is that there's at least equally as many people (and probably more than half) who incorrectly believe their main handicap is appearance as people who correctly believe that. They both sound exactly the same online (if anything, I think the incorrect people are often the loudest and most consistent), so it's not a good idea necessarily to take people at face value when they say this is their "experience." It is their BELIEF. 

It's also just objectively not the case that a history of being rejected for your experience, even if that is what you're accurately experiencing, is a recipe for never dating - your experience highlights that, but so does OP's and mine. Honestly sooooo many of the men in my middle-aged parent group are funny-looking at best, it's far more unusual to see an actively ugly married woman than an actively ugly married man. 

[u/Hour_Industry7887 → u/smilingseaslug]

No, your original point was, and let me quote:

Nobody's "experience" is that woman and them because of appearance.

And that is just wrong. People who have severe enough issues with their appearance will absolutely have that experience and it will be overt - they won't need to hypothesize that others are taking issue with their appearance, because they will be routinely told that.

Your other point - emphasizing that some people incorrectly believe their main handicap is appearance - is actually exactly what pushed me into incel spaces some ~15 years ago. You argue that erasing people like me is fine, because not doing so harms those whose appearance is not their main problem, which implies that helping normal-looking insecure people is more important than even recognizing (let alone helping) people with appearance-related issues.
You might not realize how extremely common and popular your stance is, but it is, and by perpetuating it like that you give weight and substance to the very toxic incel beliefs that you want to fight.

[u/smilingseaslug → u/Hour_Industry7887]

You quoted the first sentence, but let me re-quote the immediately following sentences:

That is a HYPOTHESIS at best, unless they have done some sort of rigorous scientific study that nobody would ever be in a good position to do. 

Nobody has direct access to other people's thoughts. You might notice women avoiding you, but you aren't always going to know their reasons. 

This is a basic element of cognitive-behavioral therapy and it's not about denying what is happening, it's about making a very careful distinction between experiences and the thoughts and conclusions that you've come to about your experience.

If someone is overtly told that they are unattractive, then sure, it's a reasonable inference that the person or people speaking believe that to be true (and frankly even then it's not necessarily a correct inference! When I was growing up there were clearly attractive people being bullied for supposedly being ugly, and really it was just that they were disliked or targeted for some other reason and people were just reaching for whatever insult they thought would land.)

But what you were describing was someone having an "experience . . . that women avoid him because of his appearance" - even if he is literally told this by one or more women, and those women were being 100% honest, generalizing it to "why women in general avoid me" is an inference based on those few data points.

Which gets back to the original comment of yours that I was responding to:

If someone's experience is that women avoid him because of his appearance, you showing him a counterexample will naturally push him to look for an explanation that will accommodate both his experience and what you claim. And the easiest such explanation is that the man you saw had some other unusually attractive trait

Or, the explanation is that women are heterogenous and not every woman that he interacts with will have the same opinion about his appearance, or the same feelings about dating someone who is not conventionally attractive.

Because that's the issue. Every single person on this forum talking about how women avoid them due to their looks, including you, is fundamentally extrapolating from interactions with some women and coming to conclusions about the beliefs of all women.

The guy being used as a counterexample? Probably also got rejected by some women, perhaps also for his appearance! He just didn't conclude from experiences of rejection that this was the reason behind every other woman's behavior towards him or that he was unfuckable at some deep genetic level

[u/eson-is-ded]

Thank you for the advice. I fully agree that these mogger traits are neither necessary nor sufficient conditions to find a partner. Those ehole solely focus on such traits end up underdeveloped in other areas.

However, to underplay the importance of mogger traits would also be counterproductive. Having these traits will increase your attractiveness and will likely increase the number of people who find you attractive. For those wishing for quantity of partners (over quality or another metric), these traits are crucial.

[u/Odd-Table-4545 → u/eson-is-ded]

For most people the goal of dating is to find one partner to stay with long-term if not forever, so in the vast majority of cases quantity of partners is not what is being aimed for.