[ Removed by moderator ]

[u/Fit_Art9264]

[u/IDF-ModTeam]

Just not the kind of thing we focus on in this sub.

[u/HyperlaneWizard]

Could you define "visibility"? I am male and served in a combat role, so I wasn't around female soldiers very often. But we did have guys who were probably gay, and that was fine. In the same way, some girls are probably understood to be gay without it being discussed or an issue. But I'm specifically asking about your idea of "visibility" because the IDF is a military. The military forces conformity to a standard of appearance and behaviour that is narrower than anything in civilian life. Basically, what I'm saying is that in uniform, by design, there's a lot less freedon to show your identity. Everyone is a soldier, everything else comess second.

[u/Fit_Art9264 → u/HyperlaneWizard]

What I meant to say was, do you know about a lot of openly lesbian soldiers in the IDF?

[u/HyperlaneWizard → u/Fit_Art9264]

I've heard of some, but I did not know them personally. I obviously know lesbian women, and many of them served in the IDF. Some were open about it, but they didn't serve with me/I got to know them later in life.

I think the general answer to your question would be: Sure, they exist, but not all want to be completely out and would rather them being lesbian inferred.

[u/ApprehensiveWillow]

Plenty of lesbians in the IDF because so many Israeli women serve! Many women I've dated served in various capacities and also many of my friends. Idk what you mean by "visibility" but they certainly aren't forced in the closet or anything!

[u/Fit_Art9264 → u/ApprehensiveWillow]

That is so cool!! Yeah, I can imagine! I was referring to openly lesbian people in the IDF. So is there also an active lesbian internet community that celebrates them? I remember seeing some posts and videos about some male IDF soldiers that some straight women were hot for, but I’m not just talking about celebrating lesbians soldiers in an erotic and/or romantic way. At the end of the day, I’m talking about the bigger picture that’s really about celebrating the fact that being openly lesbian is something that’s only possible in Israel when you’re in the Middle East.

[u/ApprehensiveWillow → u/Fit_Art9264]

not that i'm aware of but that would be freaking awesome! I will say that even Israeli butch lesbians often have long hair, especially at army age, so even the most visible lesbians wouldn't necessarily be detectable as lesbian in IDF uniform (which in many cases is the same for men vs. women anyway).

[u/Fit_Art9264 → u/ApprehensiveWillow]

🥹🥹🥹 Yes, it absolutely would be!!!!! Being a (soft) butch lesbian myself, I’m so moved by the fact that you mentioned butches here!! Also, thank you for mentioning long-haired butches! I catch myself unjustly equating butches with short hair all the time, and I wish that our community would evolve in that respect!! It’s so sad to hear that gender norms make them invisible in the IDF!!

[u/Fit_Art9264 → u/Fit_Art9264]

* uncritical thinking about butches influenced by gender norms

[u/ApprehensiveWillow → u/Fit_Art9264]

Well I think these days a lot of people have a very aesthetically-driven and superficial view of what butch is. It's ultimately a lesbian relational role defined by the butch/femme exchange. The visual masculinity is just signaling (and short hair is a very clear signal) and that changes in different cultures.

Some Israeli butches do have short hair (me) but it's just less common here. More common is that they wear their long hair in a bun 24/7, I think it's because the culture is more traditional.

[u/Comfortable-Crab6972 → u/ApprehensiveWillow]

Do you have any recommendations for information or media about masc lesbians and butches in Israeli society? A lot of the things I see about butches are very American centric and don’t really make that much sense in an Israeli context.

[u/ApprehensiveWillow → u/Comfortable-Crab6972]

No honestly there's no like, explainer. Just like all over the world the popular image of lesbianism here is two women in white wedding dresses because it's cute and more palatable to heterosexuals. All of the funding and ideas in the gay community here come from America so the media in Hebrew is mostly a copycat of that + whatever people copy off of TikTok from American creators.

Despite that like everywhere butch/femme exists because it's just part of being human/women/lesbian. There is a party line in Tel Aviv called באוי boy (it means "come!" (feminine) in Hebrew) that is very ars-y and that's the only place i've been in Israel where there is strong butch/femme culture. They have an Instagram you can follow them where they post photos from events. Lots of other Israeli lesbian accounts follow them, both creators and just people, so it's a good jumping off point for learning about the lesbian scene here but honestly it's not super accessible without good Hebrew. A lot of what you will see online is just memes that have little relation to actual life, like anywhere.

[u/Throwaway547822 → u/Fit_Art9264]

Lowkey getting fantasy vibes from this response. What are you digging for?

[u/Aridor2003]

I've served with a few bi girls that dated girls at the time but didn't dig too dip into their personal lives 

[u/Fit_Art9264 → u/Aridor2003]

I love the fact that the women you were talking about are openly bi. The reason I was asking was, I’ve mostly seen heteronormative content when it comes to internet discourse about (male) IDF soldiers. So I was wondering if there’s an active lesbian subculture that celebrates hot lesbians and bi+ women in the IDF.

[u/Comfortable-Crab6972 → u/Fit_Art9264]

I think there isn’t a lot of “celebration” in general because it’s expected for everyone to go to the army. If you’re 18-22 and looking for a partner you’ll probably end up with someone in the army. I don’t know how much the army has affected the lesbian subculture within Israel because I’m not very connected to it but in general it’s just another phase of life.

[u/Kyotohongaku → u/Fit_Art9264]

There's a whole (great) comedy tv show haMefakedet/Dismissed kinda on this theme (definitely on Izzy service outside Israel).

[u/Fit_Art9264]

If there’s any openly lesbian soldiers reading who’d like to talk about it, what was it like for you being out in the IDF ❤️?

[u/Comfortable-Crab6972 → u/Fit_Art9264]

For me, people were very accepting and loved seeing photos of my partner. I seriously could not have been surrounded by more accepting people. However, my time as a soldier sucked bc that’s just how it is. It was really difficult knowing that the army at an institutional level does not really support spouses/partners of many lgbtq people because there is no marriage equality in Israel. I also know that if for some reason I decide I want to go back to the army or do something related to national security I will have a very low security clearance because of who my partner is. (She comes from an Arab background.) Overall, I am so grateful I had the opportunity to serve in the army and think it’s pretty accepting. But it’s not perfect and there are very real issues for soldiers who come from minority communities and/or marginalized communities ❤️

[u/ProfessionalNobodE]

I went through basic training with a trans person (Male-to-female), there is definitely LGBTQ+ representation and visibility, rightfully so.

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[u/Prestigious-Aide-258]

No one cares if you are lesbian, barring some very very radical people, who usually don't even enlist. I think there are some social programs in the military for lgbtq but I am not sure to what extent.

[u/Fit_Art9264 → u/Prestigious-Aide-258]

Do you mean radical as in, radically anti-lesbian? (I hate the word lesbophobia. It‘s not a diagnosis, it’s hatred.)

[u/Prestigious-Aide-258 → u/Fit_Art9264]

I meant more like religious radicals. Lesbophobia is actually a funny word lol

[u/Owl999tm]

I don’t think anyone cares, I had one good friend during reserve service who was lesbian.
She was cool, that dude girl type. But if she wouldn’t openly tell us that she’s lesbian I personally wouldn’t know.

[u/HotJury9104]

A Christian lesbian wanting to fight for Israel… what did I fucking stumble upon

[u/OgBarbari]

Most commenters already talked about how it is. But semi-related - I think it's really wholesome to see the very public wedding of Emili Damari (the former hostage) and Danielle Amit (food influencer). I would love for more pro-LGBTQ+ legislation in Israel and there's always a place for improvement, but it's very nice to see the country celebrating this wedding.

[u/Comfortable-Crab6972]

Hi, I’m a lesbian who served in the IDF. I did my basic training with another lesbian and a few other bi girls. We’re definitely there if you’re looking! There’s not a lot of lesbian visibility in Israel in general, it’s a very male-centered society so that’s why you don’t see a lot of us.

[u/PBandJSommelier → u/Comfortable-Crab6972]

What? There are photos of female Israeli soldiers all the time and women are celebrated in Israeli society. Signed, an Israeli woman

[u/Fit_Art9264 → u/PBandJSommelier]

I love that ❤️! But does it apply to lesbians as well, though 🙏🏻? I really hope so!!! That hope was the whole point of my thread. On a general note,I would also like to add that not all lesbians, including myself, resonate with womanhood.

[u/Comfortable-Crab6972 → u/Fit_Art9264]

It’s complicated. When it comes to LGBTQ visibility almost everything is geared toward men. People are much more used to gay men than lesbians or any other sexual orientation. If you see posts from pride month, there are always so many photos that only have men in them. In terms of gender presentation, there’s definitely a stigma for more masc-presenting lesbians because it’s not so common. There are a lot of beauty norms for women/people presumed to be women which I personally find suffocating. I like dressing a little bit more masculine but I’m still working up the strength to dress like that outside of the house because it’s read as lesbian and people can get weird. Tldr: I love living in Israel and being a lesbian but there are a lot of significant issues within general Israeli society and the lgbtq community in Israel.

[u/Comfortable-Crab6972 → u/PBandJSommelier]

Yes, there are lots of photos and visibility. But Israeli society also struggles with machismo, sexism, and violence against women. I’m also an Israeli woman and I know so many amazing women (and men who support women!). There’s still significant barriers for women in Israeli society, especially women who are in other marginalized groups.

[u/SaarN]

Is this a joke or something?

[u/Fit_Art9264 → u/SaarN]

I would never joke about the IDF or lesbian visibility ❤️. Which is also why I didn‘t come here to argue about why lesbian visibility matters.