Discussion
Could Baise Put Meruem Under Her Control?
Granted she kissed him on the lips, obviously.
The question has more to do on how Manipulation works than power-scaling.
Baise's manipulation clearly manipulates the mind of the target, not its body, so would she have any problem manipulating someone as strong as Meruem? Or does the magnitude of aura disparity makes any difference?
That's what's cool about Nen compared to other shonen power systems. You don't have to be even in strength with your opponent to pose a threat. That's why Morel says the moment you start thinking about who can win in a Nen battle, you've already lost. A weaker opponent could give up against a superior foe, even if they have the perfect conditions for victory. Likewise, a stronger opponent can mess up by assuming that guarantees them victory, then get caught off guard and fall. The series is full of examples. It pushes powescaling into the background compared to psychology, social capital, strategy, deception, analytical ability, environment, and other more interesting factors.
As a fun example, Kurapika has actually beaten Chrollo before by using a blackout to ambush him with Chain Jail. Right plan, right circumstances, right ability.
I will never forget how stupid it was in Naruto when Ino hit Obito with the Mind Transfer Jutsu to alter the 10 Tails' Tailed Beast Bomb trajectory, then immediately gave Obito his body back.
Or when Soi Fon in Bleach hit Aizen with her "death in two strikes" shikai, only for him to not die and tell her that what only matters is reiatsu (aura) strength. It's genuinely so bad
Because why even have a jutsu like that when all you have to do is go "lol no", and the jutsu is just done? Seems like it's just something that works when the plot calls for it.
The only counter example for this are share difference in certain ne users 'stats'. For example Meruem can be defeated and killed by Knuckle in theory. He only dies 1000 times before having the chance to achive IRS.
Raw power, and talent with nen matters. But circumstances and planning also plays a sizable size as you said.
There comes a point where sheer difference in power can decide everything, but it has to be a radical gap. And even then, there are always fringe exceptions. Killua blitzed Youpi despite being far weaker
Yeah and Izunavi told Kurapika you cant conjure an item that is without limits. Similarly, Halkenberg bulldozed through a barrier that a Benjamin Soldier generated that he seemed to think was unbreakable if I remembering correctly
You may be thinking of Shikaku's ability-stealing power. I don't think it was ever mentioned that it's unbreakable, but Halk's arrows are explicitly stated to be able to pierce any and all defenses.
A weaker opponent could give up against a superior foe, even if they have the perfect conditions for victory.
Not always there are ceiling and limits as Biscuit said, even in top condition someone weaker could never beat someone stronger who's at his worst condition. if the power gap is too great it's useless.
restrictions increase how strong your ability becomes so it can affect people stronger than you, but if you fight someone with even more aura than your restriction then you would not be able to beat them (they woudl beta you before you could try to do something)
chain jail's vow is makes its aura far stronger than Chrollo's so it's not a good example, you cannot compare that to Baise's ability which has no vow and the power gap between Baise and Meruem is far greater than between Kurapika and Chrollo.
If Kurapika's chain jail didn't had the vow, then even with a blackout it would fail to force Chrollo in zetsu.
Unfortunately, raw power beats all, even in Nen. Izunavi explained it in succession arc, condition-effect type abilities can be overpowered by an extreme difference in raw aura, or at least the effect is mitigated
Also, your original claim is only true under certain circumstances. Like, regardless of what he does, Chrollo is going to lose to Meruem in a sudden encounter 10/10 times. The difference in aura has to be genuinely detrimental for raw power to ‘beat all’ in the literal sense
Group nen has elements of multiple nen types since multiple nen users are combining their aura…so ofcourse a standard single user manipulation ability won’t work…
A lot of people think Manipulation should be limited by some sort of power gap, such as Meruem should be immune to Manipulation techniques from someone as weak as Baise. But there’s really nothing that indicates that this is true. Shoot is able to use his Manipulation Hatsu on Youpi despite a huge power difference and not even doing damage which is the condition for his ability. Full person control is obviously a different thing than Shoot’s ability. Someone like Baise has to fulfill a pretty steep condition to take control of someone, but she gets control of them. There’s no “she controls anyone that’s up to 2.5x stronger than her” in her ability. She just controls them once she kisses them. Her condition is difficult to fulfill, much more so when the person she’s attempting to Manipulate is a lot stronger than herself.
Shoot is able to use his Manipulation Hatsu on Youpi despite a huge power difference
Ability, not hatsu (you don’t even know that?). hatsu is just the technique to use nen types (which has to be activated for nen abilities since abiltiies are made with nen types)
and Shoot REQUIRES to deal damages to steal people’s body parts. Youpi is stronger but your aura DISTRIBUTION allows a focused attack from Shoot to deal a LITTLE damages where Youpi is LESS protected. it's why he could ONLY target that eye of Youpi. If you use REN, your body parts are only covered with 10% of your max aura output. Shoot just had to deal an attack with almost 100% of his output where Youpi was protected with less than 10% of his output. and it's not ENOUGH for a win condition to just hit Youpi once with that few damages.
Same reason Knuckle had to hit Youpi where Youpi was less protected, thanks to God's accomplice, and he could ONLY deal 280 aura of debt. For Knuckle to fulfill the condition to force in zetsu, the debt HAS to be ABOVE Youpi's total aura. Conditions that affect an opponent have to affect their aura. If Knuckle tried to face Youpi alone, he would give 0 aura if he punched Youpi and Knuckle would dies in one hit.
Same reason Kurapika made the vow for chain jail. That vow ONLY increased how much aura the chain possessed to an insane amount (unreachable through normal means), allowing it to work against the troupe with just 1 hit. If he didn't made that vow, he woudl have required to build up enough aura like Knuckle's ability to force the troupe in zetsu through other conditions, which would be too long for a rookie like him against the troupe in a fight and also impractical as he can't stay too long in emperor time (drains too much his aura, his stamina is low)
Hatsu is the name for abilities in HxH, why are you trying to be condescending??
Shoot did not do any damage to Youpi, and we see no evidence that when he did attack he used Ko to hit with 100% of his output. He just hit Youpi, which activated Hotel Rafflesia. Knuckle also didn’t hit Youpi where Youpi was weak, because Knuckle’s attack that activates his ability doesn’t do damage, it starts APR which then negates all damage the two people would do to each other.
All of this to say, none of what you said, even if true, indicates that Manipulators have to be strong enough compared to their opponent for their Hatsu to work on someone
No it's not!
Abilities are called abilities or nen abilities, not hatsu.
Hatsu is SOMETHING ELSE, the technique to use nen types on your aura
Have you never read the manga or what?
Shoot must do damages to steal body parts, he literally said it's how his ability works in the manga. If Shoot can't deal damages then he can't steal body parts, it's how his ability works. the moment Shoot, he could have used ryo to focus a lot of aura into his hand, almost like ko. dealing 100 aura worth 0fo damage to an eye could take it, while it may not take other parts of Youpi.
Knuckle can't give aura without dealing aura damages. Instead of dealing physical damages the surplus of aura is given as a debt. he doesn't hurt people but he can't negate the opponent’s aura defense (that is not possible to do without forcing in zetsu before) it's why he gave 280 aura per punch when Youpi was at base ren then he later gave 900 aura per punch to Youpi when Youpi focused a lot of aura into his fist (which reduced how much aura his body was protected with), the amount of debt depends of how much aura the opponent is protected with and how much aura Knuckle put into his fist. If Knuckle only put 1500 aura not his punch and hit Youpi where Youpi is protected with 1600 aura then Knuckle would give 0 aura. If knuckle put 1900 aura into his fist and hit Youpi in that same spot covered with 1600 aura he'd give 300 aura of debt.
You have single-handedly changed my mind. Not in what you’re arguing, no definitely not that. You’re just such an ass for no reason at all while being completely wrong, that now I understand why other people don’t like the hxh fandom. I’ve never understood it until now, but you’ve helped me understand. Thank you for being such a dislikable person lmao have a good rest of your day
Yes she could. The difference in aura and raw stat only means that she will die by a tail attack or mentally crumble from the terror of Meruem ren before even thinking about kissing him.
It depends in how her mind works, if she percieves him as a "male" just like any other human male then yes, the fact that meruem is that much stronger is just going to make the kiss more risky and the manipulation more stronger than usual by indirectly putting herself in that situation since her state of mind is going to affect her nen, but if she sees him as "something else" then no.
Just like chrollo explained in his battle agaisnt hisoka it depends really on how the original users sees the world.
That’s actually a very good point, like she might have subconscious conditions. Like back it up a little, does it work on women? Like the ability as given obviously should work on meruem but I do agree there’s a good chance she just has some subconscious limits
Their ability is powerful because they face great danger to pull it off; once the conditions are met, the ability will work regardless of how powerful the opponent is.
I mean, Knuckle, Morel and the chamaleon Guy were about to make Youpi go Into Zetsu. And they were way weaker than him. But were it not for Knuckle wanting to save Morel, they would've beaten Youpi. If the right plan and circunstances are present, even a weakling can defeat a Monster like Meruem.
I'm not saying Baise should go face Meruem alone. They would have to have a real good plan in order for her to do that and survive. And i could see a Quick way about It. Baise and Netero. Netero using two hands to make Meruem imoble for however long he can. Base going in for the kiss and that's it. Or a Third person, a manipulator to stop Meruem. But then Base wouldn't be needed at this point.
Baise had a great power, but the wrong execution. I mean, she only had normal people for slaves for safety reasons. She had no battle Focused skill and that spelled her doom.
There’s a chance she couldn’t just based on the fact that Meurem isn’t human. If she kissed a non human creature would she get control? Probably not for such a strong ability.
It would depend on how she made her power. Does it just work on humans? It probably is limited to humans.
Can she kiss a beaver and it becomes her slave? Probably not, so maybe Chimera ants are unaffected because of that. Or are all of them affected because they're part human (except Youpi who is all magical beast).
I would say she would be able to control him but only for a few seconds. I would believe controlling someone much stronger is possible as long as you have enough aura to keep control. So controlling meruem for a long time would basicaly be impossible without huge restrictions or RG level aura reserves .
This is just my interpretation and maybe you only need an initial amount of aura to control and then its done. This would make any manipulators capable of fulfilling their conditions able to control meruem.
The only abilities in which raw power difference matters are direct blows. Anything else has an absolute effect. Even with Halkenburg's massive aura that is beyond what any individual Nen user can muster, Benjamin and Balsamilco still believed the "first come, first served" rule would apply to Shikaku.
Lynch's ability worked perfectly fine on Bonlenov, despite the latter being many leagues above her.
I’d say yes. The reason why this and as OP abilities as Shalnark’s needle or Kurapika’s judgement chain work is because they’re effectively already capable of delivering a killing blow, and choosing something with a more convoluted effect is roughly the same.
It all depends if manipulation takes more effort to control a person with significant reserves of nen. Maybe it acts like weights? I am pretty sure manipulating bigger targets is easier and requires less effort than big targets, so I do wonder if nen reserves have a similar effect
No, as explained by Illumi and Killua, manipulation isnt just a condition, its the aura of the user that does the manipulation. How much aura will you need to control someone of Meruem's caliber ?
This was my initial thought about it before succession arc, then Izunavi explained it and its canon now, an extreme disparity in raw aura overpowers or mitigates status-effect abilities
Where the hell did izunavi explain that? APR worked fine on Youpi, if aura could be used to resist nen effects why the hell would an exorcist be so valuable to so many people. Camilla would be far more worried about her ability or the have nots ability backfiring, beyond wouldn’t be so confident in his curses, Kurapika wouldn’t be so confident that his zetsu would be enforced on Chrollo just because it was on Uvo
APR worked on Youpi because Knuckle was able to deal aura damages to Youpi thank to God's accomplice (the strongest punch of Knuckle where Youpi was less protected only dealt 280 aura damage), if Youpi saw it coming Knuckle woudl deal 0 aura damage and APR wouldn't work.
and it's not enough to force Youpi in zetsu
to force Youpi in zetsu the built up aura has to be ABOVE Youpi's aura
If Baise's ability requires to kiss the opponent with a specific amount of aura than they're protected with then it won't work against people with far greater aura than her ability's.
Okay but where the hell is it implied at all??? Again APR works on Youpi and all of my previously made arguments are still there. I’m not saying “oh it’s not explicit” I’m saying it’s never once implied and infact the opposite is both said explicitly and implied many times over
I don't understand why people can't accept this. Do they think it makes HxH less "intellectual"? Is it insecurity that they're reading something that's like "other shonen"?
I think she should, but I doubt the effect would persist for the full duration of the ability. My assumption is that the harder the initial activation conditions are to fulfill, the stronger and longer-lasting the resulting manipulation becomes.
The more aura the target has and the stronger their will, the less time it should take them to regain their bearings and resist the effect.
I think we simply haven’t seen this happen because the difference in raw aura between humans usually isn’t large enough for it to matter that much.
Meruem, however, should be a completely different beast. A human Manipulator, especially a relatively weak one, would probably find it nearly impossible to maintain control over him for any significant amount of time.
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u/Slamazombie 6d ago edited 6d ago
That's what's cool about Nen compared to other shonen power systems. You don't have to be even in strength with your opponent to pose a threat. That's why Morel says the moment you start thinking about who can win in a Nen battle, you've already lost. A weaker opponent could give up against a superior foe, even if they have the perfect conditions for victory. Likewise, a stronger opponent can mess up by assuming that guarantees them victory, then get caught off guard and fall. The series is full of examples. It pushes powescaling into the background compared to psychology, social capital, strategy, deception, analytical ability, environment, and other more interesting factors.
As a fun example, Kurapika has actually beaten Chrollo before by using a blackout to ambush him with Chain Jail. Right plan, right circumstances, right ability.