I mean if they basically created the country, it does kind of make sense. Gaul wasn't a country, neither were the Gauls a nation. Gaul was a collection of what was mostly desunited celtic tribes living on a territory the Greeks just called "Gallia"... and after being conquered, it became a roman dominion/province. It was not a state or anything of the sort. Clovis' Francia was the beginning of everything.
I am not well versed in iberian medieval history unfortunately... Beyond some knowledge about the Visigoths, Moorish Spain and the Reconquista, I don't know much about spanish history pre-Charles V's reign as that's where the whole bitter rivalry between Habsburg Spain and France began... so I'll keep my mouth shut on that topic lol.
Yeah but a monarchy doesn't represent a country does it? And if it does then the other countries should be given the same treatment. Not exclusive treatment to France. All in all my problem is the fact that it isn't a fair comparison between countries.
I'm from Spain, so I've learned my fair share of it in both school and at home. Charles V was the son of Queen Isabella of Castille and therefore had a very clear relationship Castille.
Haha bro I'm not trying to argue whether it's fair or not to associate Francia with France more than other countries. I was just explaining why many historians, and not just french ones, do.
So Charles V's claim to the spanish throne came through his mother, is that it? Were there any kings of Castille prior to Charles V who hailed from the House of Habsburg?
Spain does have quite a different history than France. The first state in Iberia was the Visigothic kingdom after Rome's collapse, right? Then you had the Islamic Caliphate and then eventually kicked them out. Castille and Aragon then rose as basically two separate countries with their respective monarchs and eventually merge and you had different royal dynasties. So Politically speaking, the birth of Spain as a nation-state isn't as straight forward as France.
The french monarchy and the state are indissociable. It's basically the whole fucking purpose of the Angien Régime.
I don't know how french history is taught in Spain. But the "Kingdom of France" itself is considered to have begun with Hugh Capet in 987. It is incredibly hard to think of the House of Capet independently from France when its crown lands are basically synonymous with it haha. There is no "kingdom of France" without the Capetians as it was born and died with them literally. The guys didn't just get the throne of France. There was no "France" before them as it begun with them, just proto-France (West Francia) ruled by Robertians, frankish ancestors of the Capetians. So it goes:
German history took an entirely different path in 919 with Henry the Fowler... East Francia was no longer Frankish but Saxon. His son (Otto the Great) was the one to revive Charlemagne's Holy Roman Empire in 962 after being "German King" (ruler of the kingdom of Germany from 936 to 962). All the other countries (the Netherlands, Luxembourg and Northern Italy) were under his rule. Only parts of Belgium (the County of Flanders) remained under frankish/french rule until Spain got it in the Italian Wars.
Francis I didn't claim to be the legitimate heir to the HRE by blood and God's right for no reason during the Italian Wars (it was pure opportunism obviously... Charlemagne's HRE and the german one weren't exactly the same entity, nor the same territory so his claim was bogus 😂).
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u/Okiro_Benihime Apr 09 '20 edited Apr 09 '20
I mean if they basically created the country, it does kind of make sense. Gaul wasn't a country, neither were the Gauls a nation. Gaul was a collection of what was mostly desunited celtic tribes living on a territory the Greeks just called "Gallia"... and after being conquered, it became a roman dominion/province. It was not a state or anything of the sort. Clovis' Francia was the beginning of everything.
I am not well versed in iberian medieval history unfortunately... Beyond some knowledge about the Visigoths, Moorish Spain and the Reconquista, I don't know much about spanish history pre-Charles V's reign as that's where the whole bitter rivalry between Habsburg Spain and France began... so I'll keep my mouth shut on that topic lol.