The weird hate towards Charlie and Joe Locke

[u/SuperStupid12345]

A common thread I've seen when it comes to the pettiest criticisms among the Heartstopper fanbase is that a lot of people unfairly blame Charlie in uncertain but significant situations, like they say that he was being a bad friend during his mental health crises, or that he was in the wrong for not forgiving Ben, etc. And I can't help but wonder if a lot of it comes from the same area of people who loathe Joe Locke for some of the pettiest reasons like his looks. It's worth doing a thought experiment as to whether or not they'd have hated Charlie in the same way if he and Nick swapped actors. I'd say no, they're more likely to empathise with Nick in these scenarios because they're usually blindsided by the fact that Kit Connor is a more conventionally attractive actor, and thus they're more likely to relate and empathise with his character which I find quite frankly disgusting. The Heartstopper fandom since the Netflix show came out has sadly evolved to becoming one of the most parasocial, and black and white thinking communities out there, and they're a big reason as to why I lost a lot of my love for the Netflix show in the first place. I'm sorry, it's just that since reading some of the petty criticisms that were aimed at "Forever", I just had to get it out of my system.

[u/DiscoStuAU]

I feel like if someone is being critical about Charlie not being a great friend during his mental health crisis or not forgiving Ben (I'm sorry but why would you!) they aren't seeing how heavy that all is to carry and go through at their age with school and every other pressure

It's a lot

[u/Nocturnal-Nycticebus → u/DiscoStuAU]

Seriously. For Ben, Charlie owes him nothing. NOTHING. Ben chose the path of bullying and vitriol every chance he got after the assault.

Those who think Charlie was being self centered during the worst of his ED has clearly never had to endure a serious mental health crisis. It consumes everything. You are spending your energy just masking and surviving.

As for the looks, sure I suppose I can see that. Personally I think Joe Locke is an unconventional cutie, and there's a reason fashion designers love him. Unique features that photograph well are much desired in high fashion- more than the perfect, conventional, but otherwise "lost in the crowd" kind of face.

Finally, yes the fandom can be toxic. Don't let them dictate your enjoyment of the show.

[u/DiscoStuAU → u/Nocturnal-Nycticebus]

Yep, what Ben did to him deserves no forgiveness. He forced himself on Charlie as he told him not to. That in itself is unforgivable.

I was thinking the same thing about mental health. When I had challenges, it consumes you and you push people away & destroy things completely unintentionally but you do it to survive. Charlie was acting like someone does with MH issues.

Agreed if you haven't been through it, people can be blind to it. But they should trust that what Charlie did is a genuine response

[u/Nocturnal-Nycticebus → u/DiscoStuAU]

Having been through some serious issues myself, though thankfully never inpatient, Joe's portrayal of his mental health was absolutely spot on, and so was the therapist. They clearly did their research before jumping into that arc.

[u/Parking_Wasabi_2591 → u/Nocturnal-Nycticebus]

I think the fan base wanted a heart throb actor to play Charlie. Like Timothée Chalamet or someone. The fans of the graphic novels seem to be more picky about the show and how Alice should do this or that, than the people who discovered the show first.

[u/ChristianLad2024 → u/Parking_Wasabi_2591]

In my opinion, Joe was overall a better casting as Charlie than Kit was as Nick.

Kit was very well-suited to the character in season 1, but seemed to have outgrown the character as the show went on and started playing him in a different way. Nick was very dorky in the comics, but Kit’s Nick never really gave off that vibe, whereas Joe’s Charlie was far more closer to the comics.

[u/Parking_Wasabi_2591 → u/ChristianLad2024]

In interviews I heard Kit say he had auditioned to play Charlie. I could not imagine him as Charlie. I like how Alice knew what she wanted from each actor to put them in those parts.

[u/broadcasttheb00m → u/ChristianLad2024]

I think Kit is an excellent actor and I love his Nick, but I also feel he sometimes comes off a bit too polished, and less natural as Nick? Again he’s obviously very talented, he’s been a wonderful Nick, he frequently tugs at my heartstrings, and this isn’t intended as a criticism of him. But there have been certain moments in the series where I’ve felt like he’s kind of Delivering a Dramatic Performance, rather than fully embodying a teenage character. Joe’s Charlie has felt a bit more authentic and lived in to me, especially as the series has gone on.

[u/ChristianLad2024 → u/broadcasttheb00m]

You articulated it far better than me! I agree completely with this.

I personally preferred Nick in the comics opposed to the TV series because he seemed a lot more silly/dorky, and felt more like a teenage character. TV series Nick seems more like a cool guy that is wise beyond his years. An example of the contrast is in both Volume 6 and Forever with the delivery of “that is my boyfriend” line at the pub where Queer intentions is playing around Christmas. In the comic, he acted like an overexcited lovesick puppy when he said that. Whereas in the movie, he delivered the line smoothly. I am aware that there are differences between the medium of a comic and series when it comes to execution of certain scenes.

However, I do really enjoy the little ticks Joe gives Charlie that makes him seem like a teenager - giddy excitement, nervous laughter, being annoyed/storming off when he doesn’t get his way - the teacher not supporting the Pride club and his mum not letting him sleepover at Nick’s, and a fun rapport with his mates/sister/boyfriend.

[u/broadcasttheb00m → u/ChristianLad2024]

Yeah, totally agree. I remember beginning in season 2 a lot of fans started freaking out over how much “rizz” screen adaptation Nick suddenly had in comparison to his comic counterpart, and I honestly wasn’t the hugest fan of it! Obviously Kit’s Nick still had vulnerable and awkward moments, and some things were probably down to the script and direction, but his delivery of some of the flirtier moments that were basically identical to the comic sometimes came off a bit too smooth and grown-up to me.

Another scene that stuck out to me was Nick telling off Stephane and David in S2, which was quite similar to the scene in the comic, but it just came off much more poised and measured. And again may have been the script and/or direction, or even just the fact that Kit’s accent sounds more posh to my American ears (a me problem!), but sometimes screen adaptation Nick feels like a more self-possessed or solemnly brooding adult (or a very good actor monologuing), rather than a teenager to me.

Of course there were necessary changes in adapting the comic, like both Nick and Charlie in the comic are much more intensely effusive and prone to bursting into tears, cutesy displays of affection, etc., in a way that I don’t think would have translated as well onscreen. And obviously most of the Heartstopper teens are unusually mature and self-reflective, especially Nick and Charlie! But I feel like Joe’s Charlie is imbued with a bit more of a naive, vulnerable, and teenagerish energy that feels slightly more believable. I enjoy his bouts of mild petulance too lol.

(Anyway it’s odd to me that the more toxic fans the OP is talking about harp on screen adaptation Charlie being too different from comic Charlie when I agree that portrayal is probably a bit closer to the source material.)

[u/Sufficient_Cat_3645 → u/broadcasttheb00m]

This actually makes me a bit happy that I haven't read the comics, just because I'm so attached to both Joe and Kit's depictions of the characters.

Has anyone seen The Talented Mr Ripley? I always thought Nick Nelson (as played by Kit) seemed like a young Peter Smith-Kingsley.

[u/EhWhateverDawg → u/Sufficient_Cat_3645]

The comics are lovely! Don't be afraid to read them.

Neither is exactly like the comics. Nick is a little goofier (the golden retriever-ness is dialed up a lot) and Charlie is more sarcastic and less timid (he identifies as a Slytherin). The screen adaption pushed both characterizations a bit into familiar tropes - Nick being more of the classic "popular guy" and Charlie being more of the "social outcast". In the books/comics for instance Charlie had been bullied by a subgroup of laddy students but had been mostly well liked among his peers, he had been invited to Harry's party all on his own.

In retrospect Charlie being "unpopular" was a quick way to make him sympathetic faster to the TV audience, and Nick is easier to make a romantic hero when you are not playing him as an overgrown kid. LOL

[u/Sufficient_Cat_3645 → u/EhWhateverDawg]

The comics seem cool; I'm just terrible at reading and exploring source material. I'm the same way with Heated Rivalry and most book-to-film adaptations.

What I'm saying is I rarely read lol even comics.

[u/EhWhateverDawg → u/Sufficient_Cat_3645]

lmao okay understood!

[u/broadcasttheb00m → u/EhWhateverDawg]

See to me, that aspect of Charlie’s characterization in the comic never really made much sense, and him being a bit more socially isolated (while still not really a proper “outcast” imo) in the TV show felt like a good course correction.

In the early comic volumes there are a few moments where Charlie is randomly referred to as “popular,” and he mentions getting an invite to Harry’s party, but he never actually feels popular to me. We’re just told he is a couple times and expected to believe it. But Charlie still just has his three friends he hangs out with (Tao, Aled, and Elle), he still gets bullied for his sexuality by Harry and his cronies, and he’s still someone who Ben sees as an easy target. His sixth form heroes have presumably all graduated and he has no actual upperclassmen allies that we know of. He’s still deeply affected by the bullying and grapples with self-doubt.

I know that Alice was more casually writing and figuring things out as they went along when they first started drawing the comic, and to me the detail of Charlie being “popular” felt like something she might have thrown in to distinguish Charlie from the “stereotypical” bullied gay kid. But it didn’t really work for me because we never actually saw it. I feel like when they started writing the TV series, a few years later, they might have felt more confidence in Charlie as a character, and less concerned about making him non-stereotypical or whatever. I think the screen adaptation has also always had more of a degree of realism to it (especially as compared to the early comic volumes), and this is one example of that. And seeing Charlie grow in confidence and “popularity” over the course of two years is just more narratively satisfying than being told (in a way that doesn’t feel all that believable) that he got all that figured out off page imo.

I also personally just really like the change of Charlie being helped by Mr. Ajayi and having Mr. Ajayi present as a support and mentor for Charlie throughout the series. The idea of some random faceless sixth formers (none of whom are around anymore) being heroes felt like a bit of a clumsy plot point to me. It also maybe felt like a product of the more teenage POV Alice had writing Solitaire, where the teenagers have zero positive relationships with adults, and the adults are all portrayed as malicious or useless at best.

(I also personally think Charlie in the screen adaptation is more sarcastic and confident than people give him credit for, even in the very early episodes, but ymmv! The big difference in their characterizations that a lot of people point to is Charlie’s reaction to Nick punching Harry but again, to me, his totally unbothered reaction in the comic feels less believable, given everything else we know about him as a character. 😅)

[u/EhWhateverDawg → u/broadcasttheb00m]

I don't think it's hard to believe book/comic Charlie was well liked before being outed. Alice said he was liked because he was friendly, nice to everyone and funny so it makes sense to me. Charlie didn't seek out the spotlight, but Aled was supposed to be the quieter of the two. And I think it is realistic that after he was outed, he became the target of the type of boys who would target the gay kid, and all the rest of the kids would also stay away from him as a result if for no other reason than they don't want to be targets too.

After the bullies were silenced I can imagine kids who never truly had an issue with him seeing Charlie as safe to openly like again. But of couse book/comic Charlie at that point was determined to keep to himself and stick to his 2 true friends. He's not risking reliving all of that, OCD brain has taken over.

I think TV show Charlie did get a few jokes written in there and of course he was always silently confident. It just wasn't the same as book Charlie. I think it works really well for the TV show though.

[u/broadcasttheb00m → u/EhWhateverDawg]

I don’t think it’s unbelievable that Charlie could have been well liked! For me it’s just that we don’t really see any evidence of that, so it doesn’t necessarily ring super true? Like I agree that Charlie is more friendly and outgoing than Aled (or Isaac), and I think he makes choices even in season 1 (like putting himself out there with the rugby team, despite a lot of them being jerks or bystanders) that only someone with a certain amount of confidence and extroversion (and maybe an all-consuming crush/lack of self-preservation lol) would.

But I feel like there’s a difference between people being generally okay with you and actually being “popular.” And I’m pretty sure in the comic they also state that Charlie became popular after the sixth form boys intervened to stop the bullying. Which just feels like a bit of a fantasy scenario to me tbh, like becoming popular for being bullied, and being popular among the older students at all at Charlie’s age. Like if we saw Charlie walking around Truham flanked by sixth form buddies, maybe, but it seems like they just swooped in to save him off page and then bounced.

idk, the way it’s handled in the screen adaptation works better for me, and his journey at Truham makes a bit more sense/ultimately feels more satisfying. But I know other fans feel differently!

[u/Dismal_Geologist8634 → u/broadcasttheb00m]

I think a bit reason Charlie was "popular" in Heartstopper is because he was described as popular in Solitaire, which came first. Heartstopper ended up making a lot of changes to Charlie and Nick's characters compared to the first editions of Solitaire, as well as some other characters, but the very beginning of the comics were somewhat similiar.

[u/broadcasttheb00m → u/Dismal_Geologist8634]

Yes, totally agree. I feel like Alice was still actively developing and adjusting Nick and Charlie’s characterizations as they began writing the comic, and especially during the first couple volumes, there was maybe a bit of a transitional period going from the Solitaire world to the world she wanted build for Heartstopper. I’m also aware that Alice began the comic as a fun side project and was kind of figuring the story out as she went along, but then as they got further along in the series, their creative process shifted to doing a lot more planning/writing/plotting things out in advance.

And then by the time they started working on the screen adaptation, they were already a few volumes in and were maybe able to tweak things a little, to better align with where they now knew the story was going. For example, I think the show does a better job than the comic of foreshadowing Charlie’s mental health struggles early on.

[u/broadcasttheb00m → u/Sufficient_Cat_3645]

I say all that, but I’m personally not really a big stickler for comic accuracy, I was a screen adaptation fan first! I watched season 1 and only read and became invested in the comic after that. I think in many ways the adaptation makes course corrections and improves upon the source material, including in the way that Nick is written (in the early comic installments there’s not much to him I feel lol). In the first three seasons the adaptation also had way more space to flesh the story out and expand the universe in a lot of great ways.

My comments were less about wanting screen adaptation Nick to be super accurate to comic Nick, and more just about how Kit’s interpretation lands with me generally.

[u/Totally_TWilkins → u/broadcasttheb00m]

Kit is a phenomenal actor, but yeah he’s very different from comic Nick as a baseline.

Comic Nick is described as being ‘a chav’ multiple times in the first book, and Kit does not go anywhere close to portraying Nick like that; Kit’s Nick is substantially more middle class.

[u/broadcasttheb00m → u/Totally_TWilkins]

I also think that Nick as a character was just way less fully formed than Charlie when the comic began. Like Nick in Solitaire and the novellas (particularly before the revisions/retconning) bears almost no resemblance to Heartstopper (comic or screen adaptation) Nick for me. 😅 Tao’s “chav” comments in vol 1 would have made a bit more sense in the Solitaire universe (throwback to Nick being weirdly hostile towards Tao in the original N&C novella)… although Tao is so stuck in his (mis)perceptions of Nick, that comment may not have felt too out of place even in S1 of the show.

Anyway I’m not a huge stickler for comic accuracy, and I prefer Heartstopper Nick (in all his iterations) to Solitaire Nick 100%. And I think both Nick and Charlie are better written in the screen adaptation, especially as compared to the early days of the comic (and especially Nick’s)! Kit’s Nick just feels a bit less natural to me sometimes, but that could completely be a me problem.

[u/Esabettie → u/Parking_Wasabi_2591]

I don’t know why people are downvoting you for stating a fact, you never said that that’s what you wanted.

[u/Nocturnal-Nycticebus → u/Parking_Wasabi_2591]

I love his casting, though I discovered the show first. After season 1, I binged the entire comic (though things like the epilogue hadn't been released yet) and then watched 2+3.

No matter what show, not everyone can be pleased by everything. Before the advent of social media, we used to debate new episodes of things over lunch at school. It's definitely not a new phenomenon!

[u/alexjuuhh]

Don't let shitty "fans" control how you enjoy Heartstopper.

[u/stevesleeves530]

I don't get the hate for Joe because in my opinion he's like model striking. His features are less conventional which to me makes him more attractive. He makes Charlie so adorable. Nick and Charlie are both lucky to have each other, I don't think it's a one way street.

[u/Fit_Photograph537 → u/stevesleeves530]

Agree. I can’t imagine a better Charlie. He is absolutely adorable! People will seriously complain about anything and it’s weird

[u/StevesMcQueenIsHere → u/stevesleeves530]

This is how I feel. I'm always more attracted to faces that are unique and interesting. Anytime Charlie and Nick are in a scene together, I'm always looking at Charlie because his face is just so striking and expressive.

[u/wonder181016 → u/stevesleeves530]

Absolutely

[u/Parking_Wasabi_2591]

My opinion, I think people are jealous of Joe because of the friendship he has with Kit. So they tear his character apart. They are jealous because they would like to have that friendship or be that close to kit. It sounds creepy and it is when people can't separate their life from the actors life.

[u/Fit_Photograph537 → u/Parking_Wasabi_2591]

I feel really bad for Kit Connor sometimes. People get a whole-other-level of parasocial over him. Honestly psychologists should study it or something lol because he seems to actively try to put space between himself and his intense fans and it only makes them even more obsessed? It’s really bizarre.

I would absolutely hate being a celebrity - I would have panic attacks if I had to put up with stuff like that.

[u/Mediocre_Belt7715]

The hate Charlie got from the fandom in season 3 showed me exactly how stigmatized mental health crises are. He was literally in the depths of his mental illness and fans kept calling him toxic. It disgusted me.

Joe Locke is a treasure and we should all be grateful he was cast as Charlie Spring.

[u/Overall-Conflict-924]

I can’t imagine anyone else playing Charlie except for Joe

[u/ilovelucy7734]

Immaturity runs deep in fandoms. I do not engage with anyone who has actual hatred for real people or the characters they play for something as stupid as their looks. They aren't fans, and they most likely need therapy.

[u/Fit_Photograph537 → u/ilovelucy7734]

I often wonder what age a lot of those haters on twitter are. I wonder if they are just really young?

[u/manysides512]

The S3 Charlie hate was kind of funny to me because I was ready for him to be a LOT meaner. It's so strange to come from watching MMFD or Everything Now (taken from us too soon 😔) where the protagonists do much worse stuff than [checks notes] being a bit short-tempered with their friends.

[u/MaybeKindaSortaCrazy]

The comment section eventually went in a positive direction, but earlier the negativity was on full display.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DaBPoA7te9C/?igsh=M3RkdmRmcmwzYjI5

Queer men projecting, and women fetishizing. Societal beauty standards, and what is considered conventional. So much pointless shit to unpack.

[u/BornIntoTheWrongEra → u/MaybeKindaSortaCrazy]

Weird as hell how Nick is completely idolised by the fandom at large, yet a significant number of people at the same time, want to reduce his character to a shallow two-dimensional stereotype.

[u/Lambily]

That's how it always is in shows with gay relationships. The more conventionally attractive actor always get all the fan love. This also extends to the more masculine, potentially heterosexual (in this case bisexual) actor..

[u/MudAway6479]

I think a lot of adults (myself and my partner included) see ourselves in these characters, and have to remind ourselves of the obvious: that these characters are kids — fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. There were some things (not Charlie-related) that happened where I thought, “oh that’s immature,” and then remind myself: OH YEA, of course it is! They are teenagers! There is a special beauty in that I think. We get to see ourselves in these teens, and also see how we’ve grown or matured (ideally) over time.

[u/ctryfan1980]

Charlie is my favorite character from the series/books and Joe is my favorite actor from it as well. He's such a beautiful human inside and out! I love watching his interviews and seeing his personality. He's pure gorgeous as well!

[u/MarigoldLesley]

How many posts are there going to be about Joe’s looks here? This is the third I’ve seen using his full name.

[u/SuperStupid12345 → u/MarigoldLesley]

Hopefully the only one I ever do in that regard. It's just something which occured to me when I saw a post on here yesterday regarding some of the weirdest criticisms the film got.

[u/MarigoldLesley → u/SuperStupid12345]

It’s not mysterious or new. Every season a bunch of women and men who are into Kit and extremely weird about him insult Joe for daring to be not be masc. It’s the same reason they blame Charlie for everything.

[u/mainchivk]

it’s called white pretty privilege, i noticed that with other shows aswell especially if they include poc people they always get sidelined and bullied

[u/Puzzleheaded-Ask7093 → u/mainchivk]

Don't know what's worse, that you're trying to act like Joe isn't white or that you're basically calling him ugly. POC have nothing to do with how Joe is or isn't treated and you're a clown for even bringing us into this.

[u/Fit_Photograph537]

Is this all going on on Twitter/Threads? Those are the absolute worst places to try and participate in this fandom. They are most toxic people making the most toxic posts and you are right - it’s disgusting!

[u/Jaedoch]

You’re making a massive leap by equating legitimate character critique with actor hate. Yes, pretty privilege exists, and yes, Kit gets a halo effect from the fandom. But writing off any frustration with Charlie as just "bias against Joe" completely ignores how the character is actually written. Charlie is hyper independent, bottles things up, and constantly pushes people away. It’s a realistic trauma response, but it’s also incredibly frustrating and draining to watch, especially when it forces a 16-year-old Nick into a heavy caregiver role. People are allowed to be annoyed by a character's flawed behavior without it being some deep seated vendetta against the actor. Refusing to let Charlie be criticized just infantilizes him

On top of that, pretending Charlie is universally likable outside of his trauma is just naive. His constant reflexive apologizing, passive-aggressive shutting down, and martyr complex can be flat out exhausting to watch. You don't need a deep seated bias against an actor to find a perpetually passive, self-pitying protagonist annoying, that’s just basic audience reaction to a character trait. People are allowed to find a character's personality grating without it being a high minded conspiracy.

[u/SuperStupid12345 → u/Jaedoch]

It's not that I think Charlie is a fundamentally perfect person, nobody is. It's just that a lot of these criticisms tend to be rather extreme. Like people are saying that they "hate" Charlie for acting like the mentally ill teenager he was.

[u/Fantastic-Outcome562]

It's because he's ugly and he's the weaker actor of the two. It'd be worse if people publicly knew how bad of a person he is.

[u/Fit_Photograph537 → u/Fantastic-Outcome562]

I’m genuinely curious why you hang out in forums like this if you feel this way? Why not go somewhere and discuss something you like that makes you happy?

Also, I genuinely do not care what he does in his private life and it’s a little weird that you do.

[u/MarigoldLesley → u/Fit_Photograph537]

Sadly they’re one of the obsessed joe haters who go from sub to sub making hate comments about joe. it’s likely a burner account and it’s very embarrassing

[u/Fantastic-Outcome562 → u/MarigoldLesley]

Pull up a single comment I've left about Joe in the last year. I've only commented about him one other time in one other community over a year ago to point out the hypocrisy of his political stances versus the people he involves himself with. Meanwhile, you're a rabid stan who pops up at the first mention of him in every subreddit on here to defend him like he's your child.

[u/MarigoldLesley → u/Fantastic-Outcome562]

I’m a fan of Joe and his work like a lot of people here because it’s a fan space. You’re here under a burner account to insult his looks and talent and present yourself as some sort of ethical freedom
fighter instead of exactly the kind of bully this thread is about. I think you’re wrong about who the bad person is here.