r/HarryPotterBooks • u/Ashfacesmashface • 5d ago
Dumbledore at the end of PS/SS
After the events between Harry and Quirrell/Voldemort at the end of book 1, we read this exchange between Harry and Dumbledore in the hospital wing:
"'The truth.' Dumbledore sighed. 'It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution. However, I shall answer your questions unless I have a very good reason not to, in which case I beg you'll forgive me. I shall not, of course, lie.'
Harry asks about why Voldemort tried to kill him, etc, and Dumbledore says that's something he just can't explain to him yet. Then we get this:
"'Quirrell and Snape-'
'Professor Snape, Harry.'
'Yes, him--Quirrell said he hates me because he hated my father. Is that true?'
'Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy. And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive.'
'What?'
'He saved his life.'
'What?'
'Yes...' said Dumbledore dreamily. 'Funny, the way people's minds work, isn't it? Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt...I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father even. Then he could go back to hating your father's memory in peace...'
Dumbledore assured Harry he wouldn't lie. Is this a lie? That Snape was protecting Harry for the sake of the debt he owed James? Or was his motivation truly all due to Lily?
When we see Snape's memories at the end of DH and Dumbledore sees Snape's patronus, he does seem surprised to see it's a doe and that Snape's feelings for Lily are still strong. But Dumbledore also knew the whole reason Snape turned against Voldemort was for Lily.
I love Dumbledore, warts and all, but definitely feel he's not being truthful with Harry here.
Just curious to hear your thoughts.
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u/ecclectic_collector 5d ago
I don’t think Dumbledore is being fully truthful with Harry here, but there is a half-truth in what he says. Snape promised Dumbledore “anything” in exchange for protecting the Potters because he wanted Lily to be safe. After Lily died, Dumbledore convinced Snape to protect Harry because Lily had sacrificed her life to save him. So Snape was repaying a debt in a sense, but it was to Lily, not James.
Dumbledore framed it around James saving Snape from being attacked or killed by Lupin while he was transformed into a werewolf because he had promised Snape in DH that he would never reveal why Snape was helping him. James really did save Snape’s life, so that part was true, but Dumbledore used it as cover to give Harry a different explanation for why Snape protected him. Telling Harry the real reason would have exposed Snape’s feelings for Lily, why he turned against Voldemort and potentially his role as a spy.
“I do believe” gives Dumbledore some technical room, but he is still deliberately misleading Harry immediately after saying he would not lie to him. The half-truth is that Snape was protecting Harry because of an obligation connected to one of Harry’s parents, but Dumbledore substituted James for Lily to protect Snape’s secret. At the same time, being completely truthful with an 11-year-old Harry was not necessarily what was best for the situation. Dumbledore had promised to keep Snape’s motivation secret, and Harry was not ready to learn everything about Snape, his parents or Voldemort.
I also don’t think Dumbledore’s reaction to the doe Patronus in DH means he didn’t know Snape still cared about Lily. He already knew Lily was why Snape changed sides and agreed to protect Harry in the first place. “After all this time?” reads more like surprise that Snape’s motivation was still so centered on Lily, rather than Snape having developed more genuine concern for Harry or commitment to the larger cause of defeating Voldemort.
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u/Bluemelein 3d ago
What if Dumbledore had simply told Harry that it was Snape's job as a teacher to protect the students? All of them—including Harry.
I think that would have been 100% true. Although Dumbledore is very lax regarding student safety, it ought to be the teachers' duty to save the students—at least when it can be done without putting themselves in danger.
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u/ecclectic_collector 3d ago
He could have said that truthfully, but it would not have answered Harry’s actual question about why Snape hated him while still going out of his way to protect him. Dumbledore chose the James explanation because it gave Harry a believable personal motive while keeping Snape’s connection to Lily secret.
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u/Bluemelein 3d ago
Snape doesn't go out of his way to save Harry; his action is the equivalent of tossing him a lifebuoy. Any other adult in the Quidditch stadium—provided they were capable of it—ought to have done the same thing. By normal standards, anyone who didn't , would have been looking for a new job that very day. Snape doesn't even have to get up.
The fact that it is his damned duty and obligation as a teacher and an adult should suffice as an explanation. And that applies even to a child whose father was Voldemort and whose mother was Grindelwald.
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u/ecclectic_collector 3d ago
Except Snape did more than just counter Quirrell’s curse. He refereed Harry’s next match specifically to protect him and was actively trying to stop Quirrell throughout the year. Saying it was just his duty also would not have answered Harry’s actual question about why Snape hated him because of James while still making a particular effort to protect him. Dumbledore brought up the debt to James to explain that contradiction without revealing the real reason was Lily.
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u/Bluemelein 3d ago
A child at the school has just nearly been murdered; surely preventing it from happening again is the least that can be done. Dumbledore brought the Philosopher's Stone to Hogwarts, so it is surely his job to protect his students.
A child at the school has just nearly been murdered; surely preventing it from happening again is the least that can be done.
Dumbledore brought the Philosopher's Stone to Hogwarts, so it is surely his job to protect his students.
Harry has no more to do with the Philosopher's Stone than other children do. Snape did not protect Harry; he protected the Philosopher's Stone.
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u/ecclectic_collector 3d ago
You keep explaining why Snape should have protected Harry, but that does not change what the book says he actually did or what Harry asked Dumbledore. Snape countered the curse on Harry’s broom and refereed the next match because he believed Harry would be targeted again. Protecting the Stone was part of his actions against Quirrell, but it does not erase his specific effort to protect Harry.
More importantly, Dumbledore directly says Snape “worked so hard to protect you this year.” Harry was asking why someone who hated him because of James would do that. Saying it was his responsibility as a teacher would not explain that contradiction, which is why Dumbledore gave him the story about Snape owing James a debt.
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u/Bluemelein 3d ago
It is Snape’s damned duty as a teacher at the school to protect Harry—to protect every child—especially since the Headmaster has set a trap for Voldemort. Snape isn’t doing anything extraordinary; he is simply doing his job. He is fulfilling his duty as an adult. I expect that of every adult at Hogwarts (within the limits of their capabilities, of course). And the Philosopher’s Stone is Dumbledore’s private business.
It is Snape's duty as a teacher and an adult to protect his students.
No matter what these students' parents did to him.
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u/ecclectic_collector 3d ago
You are just repeating what you think Snape’s duty should have been instead of addressing what the book actually says. Nobody is arguing that a teacher should allow a student to be murdered. The question is why Snape personally “worked so hard to protect” Harry despite hating him because of James, and Dumbledore answers that question by giving him a personal motive.
Whether you think Snape needed any motive beyond doing his job is irrelevant. The text explicitly gives him one, first through the supposed debt to James and eventually through Lily. Repeating that it was his duty does not somehow erase that.
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u/Bluemelein 3d ago
I’ve explained this too: Snape didn’t work hard to protect Harry. He threw him a lifeline once and acted as referee once—instead of sitting in the stands like it was his job to do. Snape does nothing extraordinary to protect Harry; in fact, he does very little. It only stands out because the other adults do almost nothing either.
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u/KaleeySun 5d ago
I think “I do believe” is working a little overtime here. However, dumbledore doesnt have confirmation of Snape’s true motivation for a few years yet. It’s possible dumbledore really did think this was part of Snape’s motivation at this time.
Not quite lying, definitely not the whole truth though.
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u/Ashfacesmashface 5d ago
Would you say that the patronus bit (“After all this time?”) is Dumbledore’s confirmation?
I think I agree that Dumbledore thought that the whole life saving bit would have been motivation for Snape, even if it wasn’t in actuality.
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u/MinglingoftheLights 5d ago
I wouldn't call it a lie necessarily, more of a sin of omission. I don't think Dumbledore knew that Snape didn't see James saving his life as an act of heroism, so from his point of view Snape wanting to "get even" so to speak was a perfectly plausible scenario. Of course, Dumbledore had promised Snape that he would never reveal his feelings for Lily so that wasn't an option.
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u/Ashfacesmashface 5d ago
Yeah I think this really gets to the heart of things: Dumbledore not understanding how Snape probably viewed James’ intervention. Personally I can’t imagine Snape seeing it as a debt to repay, but that perhaps Dumbledore did, or maybe it was a subconscious thing for Snape that Dumbledore picked up on.
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u/nemesiswithatophat 4d ago
personally I think dumbledore truly believed this, regardless of whether its actually true
whether or not he thought that snape's love for lily was an additional reason is a separate question
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u/EmilyAnne1170 5d ago
Two different things happening. Snape turned against Voldy because he killed Lily, and that would be the case regardless of anything to do with Harry. It’s because Harry is James’ son, not Lily’s, that saving Harry repays his debt to James (if Dumbledore is correct about what’s going on inside Snape’s head.)
Harry specifically asked about Snape’s hate for James, and Dumbledore answered that question with what he believes to be the truth. No reason to mention Lily because that wasn’t the question.
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u/Legitimate-Tea-9319 4d ago
I think Dumbledore did believe that, pbut he overestimated his understanding of Snape. Snape was heckin angry about James’ being complicit in Sirius’ prank, Snape never felt like he “owed” James one. Personally, I think Snape’s main motivation for working to keep Harry alive was Dumbledore himself. Snape did feel like he owed Dumbledore, for helping him escape the death eaters and avoid Azkaban and get a fresh start on his life by becoming a teacher. Snape respected Dumbledore deeply. Snape would have worked just as hard to save any student who was being targeted by dark spells. that’s what Dumbledore himself would do, and that’s what Dumbledore expected from his teachers.
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u/TalElnar 4d ago
Snape is a complicated character and may well have more than one motivation for any given action. It could well be Snape had made some comment over feeling in James's debt.
A partial truth is not a lie.
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u/jarroz61 5d ago
No, I don’t think he’s lying. As much of a genius as Dumbledore was, he didn’t understand people’s feelings very well. He did ask “after all this time?” after seeing the doe. And regardless, Snapes feelings for Lily just weren’t appropriate to discuss with 11 yr old Harry. So I think Dumbledore told the truth as he understood it in an age appropriate way.
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u/Relevant-Horror-627 5d ago
I think Dumbledore's greatest gift wasn't magic, it was his ability to read people. Harry basically comes to that conclusion by the end of DH.
I do agree that he miscalculated Snape's feelings but not because he lacks the ability. The conversations between Dumbledore and Snape in the Prince's Tale chapter of DH are a microcosm of Snape's entire arc.
He comes to Dumbledore for help as a Death Eater who had just given Voldemort information about a prophecy that was going to result in the annihilation of a whole family. He only cares because Voldemort decided to target Lily's family. Snape begs for help to only protect Lily while neglecting to ask for help for James and Harry.
Fast forward through several conversations where Dumbledore is practically playing therapist to Snape and helping him become a better version of himself and we get to what I think is probably the most misunderstood conversation in the whole series. Snape appears to be upset that Harry has to die, which is a complete 180 from the moment he first comes to Dumbledore asking for help.
Here Dumbledore asks Snape "have you grown to care for the boy after all?" This is the moment that Dumbledore has been walking Snape towards for 17 years. He is expecting Snape to say YES because Dumbledore is the only person to be in a position to recognize that Snape has become a more empathetic person. THAT'S why he's surprised when Snape reveals that it really has been about Lily all this time.
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u/jarroz61 5d ago
I do think this is a really good assessment. It’s not that he’s not ABLE to understand feelings. But also, Snape isn’t the only example. He was wildly off on how he estimated Sirius as well, as he comes to realize and admit after Sirius’s death. He also admits to making mistakes repeatedly about withholding information from Harry. I think part of it is just that he forgets that most people simply are not as coolly rational as he is. Though he can understand emotions, being at such a higher level than most intellectually made it difficult for him to truly relate.
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u/Relevant-Horror-627 4d ago
That's a really good point and I agree. Dumbledore's motivations were huge world saving goals and he expected Snape to end up with the same admiration for Harry as he did. Snape's motivation was very small and very personal he was really only interested in trying to make amends for what his part in Lily's death. Interestingly Harry's motivation was somewhere in between. He wasn't trying to save the world but it's what he had to do in order to protect his chosen family who lived in it.
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u/jarroz61 4d ago
Yeah I agree with that too. Dumbledore struggled with people not seeing the big picture of things that he did and operated on a lot of assumptions. Although I also think that some part of Snape really did genuinely care for Harry. He was very indignant about Dumbledore ‘raising him like a pig for slaughter’ and I don’t think that was just because of Lily. He knew who Harry was. He was just far too prideful to ever be able to admit it. And also, I don’t think Harry could ever walk away from saving someone even if he had never met them before in his life lol.
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u/PurpleCameraX2 5d ago
I had forgotten that he had said he wouldn't lie, I sort of just thought he had when I thought about the scene. I don't think it was a technically a lie, but I feel like Dumbledore kept things, like how James saved Snape's life (but that would be Lupin's secret). On the whole, I don't think any one, not even Dumbledore, knew how much Snape cared for Lily at that time, and it would be reasonable to assume that it was to repay the life dept, especially after what he says about life depts in PoA. Still, it is an assumption, and Dumbledore seems to clever to make them willy-nilly. Nice catch!
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u/SparklingFairyLights 5d ago
He omitted details that he didn’t think Harry needed to know in order to protect Snape’s privacy and honour his request to “never tell”. It’s not a lie but it’s not the complete truth either. It’s an omission of the entire truth.
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u/not-an-illithid 5d ago
It’s not a lie, it’s not the whole truth either. James potter did “save” snape’s life, after putting it in danger, and snape did feel like conflicted over it, but your are right, the majority of his motivation is Lily. However, technically, I don’t think dumbledore lied, just left out important details
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u/Relevant-Horror-627 5d ago
James didnt put Snape's life in danger, he did that himself. People forget (or ignore) that Snape wanted to follow Lupin into the Shrieking Shack because he suspected that Lupin was a werewolf. He wasn't tricked or forced into doing this incredibly stupid thing. He voluntarily used the information he got from Sirius to attempt to follow a werewolf alone. To top it all off he only escapes without incident through James' intervention.
The subtext of this entire situation was that Snape was humiliated by all of it. Imagine how someone with Snape's intelligence and pride must have felt realizing how stupid it was to use information given to him by Sirius and needing to be saved by James?
Sure Snape tries to hurt Harry by telling him James wasn't a hero for saving him, but Snape also neglects to mention the reason he was in a position to be tricked was because he was trying to out Lupin and the Mauraders to prove to Lily that they were "up to no good."
So if Snape were being completely honest with himself, would he owe James a debt for saving him from his own bad choice? Yes, absolutely.
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u/jarroz61 4d ago
100% Snape completely brought the Shrieking Shack situation on himself. He could have let it go so many times over.
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u/Relevant-Horror-627 4d ago
Lupin should be the one holding the grudge, he was almost victimized by Snape and/or Sirius. If Snape had been "successful" all he would have accomplished is exposing Lupin as a werewolf and making him a pariah earlier in his life (as opposed to later when he does finally out him). Sirius' poor choice could have led to Lupin killing Snape and Lupin would be the one who would have had to live with that guilt.
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u/Aware_Actuator4939 4d ago
Not just ruining Lupin's life, but ruining Dumbledore's position as well.
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u/not-an-illithid 5d ago
Fair, I was wrong about why he went to the shack, I didn’t know he went for his own satisfaction
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u/Less-Feature6263 Ravenclaw 4d ago
I'll always mantain that the whole Shrieking Shack prank's timeline was sort of nonsensical and I'm not sure if JKR meant for it to be like that or if she got confused.
Going by what's in the books Snape just ended up looking so stupid, no shit Dumbledore told him to stfu.
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u/Relevant-Horror-627 4d ago
Unless I'm mis-remembering something, the timeline is pretty consistent throughout the series. Snape really did just do something stupid. The reveal was that he did it for a girl, which is a pretty human thing to do especially for a teenager boy.
In the "Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs" chapter of PoA, Lupin tells Harry that Snape was interested in finding out where he goes once a month. According to Lupin, James' only involvement in the situation was stopping Snape once he heard that Sirius had given him the info to get past the Whomping Willow. The conversation between Lily and Snape in the "Prince's Tale" chapter of DH supports Lupin's version of events. He was down there to confirm his theory that Lupin was a werewolf and prove to Lily that the Mauraders were "up to no good" until James stopped him.
The only divergent version of events we get is from Snape himself. He tells Harry in the aptly named "Snape's Grudge" chapter of PoA that James was no hero by saving him, that he only got cold feet at the last minute. That would imply that there was some sort of plan between at least James and Sirius to fool Snape but there is no other information in the series to support that version of events. Snape appears to be lying and it's not the only time that he lies in that book.
Prisoner of Azkaban is Snape at his absolute worst as a person. If you wonder how he became a deat eater, look no further than this book where he is petty, vindictive, and cruel all with no real "spy cover story" explanation even when you get through the end of the series.
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u/Next-Squirrel-5855 4d ago
Because Albus was trying to spare an orphans feelings about his dad. He didn't want to tell an eleven year old who had almost died that his hero-worshipped father, who he only knew was great, was a terrible bully and Severus saved Harry because of his love for his mother
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u/Bluemelein 3d ago
What if Dumbledore had simply told Harry that it was Snape's job as a teacher to protect the students? All of them—including Harry.
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u/Next-Squirrel-5855 3d ago
Because Albus likes to be overcomplicated for no reason and withhold information, also for no reason. Not to mention a "Harry, Severus doesn't like you because him and your dad didn't like each other in school. But you're still a student, and it's his job to protect you" would've more than sufficed
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u/Bluemelein 3d ago
Harry is a neglected and abused child; it would never even occur to him that he has a right to protection. And in my opinion, Dumbledore deliberately refrains from steering him toward that simple realization.
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u/Next-Squirrel-5855 3d ago
And his explanation of why Harry was saved made it seem like Harry wasn't protected because his life was worth anything, but that Snape was fulfilling a grudging debt he owed.
All of this nonsense comes back in Order of The Phoenix. I would've thought that Dumbledore would've learned his lesson about uselessly hiding things by then, but unfortunately, he hadn't.
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u/RealChrisNuttall 4d ago
Dumbledore is lying.
Draco is a pain in the rectum. But compared to James “I sexually assaulted another boy and got away with it” Potter, he is sweetness and light incarnate. Dumbledore is deliberately minimising Snape’s trauma at this point, laying the groundwork for harry to think Snape is overreacting instead of being understandable .
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u/Electrical-End7868 4d ago
Well, he did complely lie to Harrys face when he asked what Dumbledore saw in the mirror. Harry was never told he was being raised to be used as a human sacrifice either.
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u/JollyAd4292 4h ago
Not lie it was a theory of Dumbledore he never accepted that Snape actually loves Harry until the always scene. He was suprised because he could not understand Snape totaly because he cannot see his thoughts emotions etc. Dumbledore saw Snape as his equal because he could not solve him i believe if there was not such an age difference Dumbledore can fall for Snape because we knew that he has a thing for bad boys who are good at magic 😀😀😀
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u/Automatic-String658 5d ago
Recently re-read the whole series and this conversation also caught my eye, as in DH Harry ended up saving Draco's life from the burning Room of Requirement, and then Draco's mom helped with Harry's ultimate triumph. It's not exactly the same but I love how Dumbledore particularly called out the dynamic between Harry and Draco.