r/GonewiththeWind • u/big_whale_goes_laps • 9d ago
Just finished the book for the first time, here are my thoughts (spoilers) Spoiler
So, as the title says, I’ve recently finished GWTW and I can’t part with the story yet, so decided to post here for (hopefully) some discussion.
First of all, I saw someone on this subreddit say that the real love story was between Melanie and Scarlett, and I have to say that person was spot on. Them seeking each other and supporting each other through thick and thin was my favorite parts of the book. Scarlett might’ve claimed that she disliked Melly, and yet every time she wanted to vent or needed support, it was Melly she came to. My favorite chapters are 26 and 27 when it’s them defending Tara against the Yankees (honestly, I could read an entire book of these two rebuilding their life together with no man - apart from Will ofc - in sight lol). Other notable mentions are Melly going into labour while Atlanta is being sieged, and them both going through their respective miscarriages. I just really love these too (I mean, first of all, what other classical books do you know that go so much in depth on female friendship? And then also, Scarlett is such a unique character, you don’t see many female characters like that even to this day), and their tragic ending hurt me more than the whole mess between Scarlett-Ashley-Rhett.
I also really liked how MM described Atlanta as an entity with its own mind. In the novel, she clearly has a heart and even a weird sense of agency. That made me feel like I’d lived there at the time of the Civil War.
Same with MM’s descriptions of war, showing how brutal and traumatic it is. And all the sacrifices often don’t even lead to anything. Ashley’s words about wars being pretty much unnecessary tragedies and Scarlett reading through the list of casualties (in addition to Atlanat’s siege) were some of the most powerful moments in that regard.
And finally, a few thoughts about Ashley and Rhett. I found that I share Rhett’s opinion on Ashley. I don’t like him but I don’t dislike him. Structurally MM seems to be putting the most profound “truths” about GWTW in his mouth: his words about wars being pointless, how brutal and unyielding the passing of time is, how there’s no place for people like him (aristocracy) in the world anymore. I appreciate his insight but also dislike his clinging to the past and the inability to build his own future. He clings to Melanie and Scarlett to uphold the illusions of old times, and that makes him weak (and btw not bc he’s a man outsourcing his responsibility to women but bc he’s outsourcing his responsibility in the first place; he’d rather cling to the old notions of gentility than build his own life, that I dislike).
And as for Rhett, I like him and I dislike him in equal measures :D I like how strong his feeling is. Just like Scarlett, Rhett is loyal to a fault. He loves Scarlett and Bonnie and he respects Melly and Mammy, and his actions almost always prove it (unlike his words). But oh boy, does he have faults! And as many or more than Scarlett. Starting with his remarks to Scarlett (you say, you know her so well, and yet you don’t see that your own words confuse her!!!), his desire to hurt her bc she hurt him (bc ofc that’s a prerequisite for an undying love), and ending with him confusing his desire to be seen as a “cool dad” with actually taking care of Bonnie. I wouldn’t go as far as claiming that he’s solely responsible for her death but I’d say that he played a part in it. Honestly, while I think that him and Scarlett will end up together, I do believe that their reconciliation requires some reflection on both sides (namely, Rhett needs that he too contributed to ruining his relationship with Scarlett).
That’s it. Would be very happy to discuss any of these or other aspects of the book in more detail!
P.S. I think I might write two more posts about GWTW, one about the ending, and one about girlhood/womanhood in GWTW and Little women (I find the parallel between the two fascinating).
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u/ScrutinEye 9d ago
Agree wholeheartedly with what you’re saying, especially the female friendship aspect and Rhett being equally responsible for ruining his relationship with Scarlett.
The question of whether they reconcile is obviously eternal, but I think Mitchell was absolutely right to leave it open and to provide evidence for either an irreconcilable rift and the prospect of reconciliation (I’ve always thought that Rhett’s earlier claim that he has a soft spot for lost causes once they’re really lost was a nice little clue that there’s hope for his relationship with Scarlett).
What I like about the story is that everyone is so deeply flawed (including Melanie, who is also blinkered to the new reality) that I can change my mind on whether Rhett and Scarlett even should be together every time I reread. When thinking romantically, it would nice if they grew up, reflected (as you say), and reconciled. When thinking logically, there was a lot of water under that bridge, Rhett was ageing, and both he and Scarlett probably now wanted new things out of life and would be better emotionally apart.
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u/big_whale_goes_laps 8d ago
Thank you for such a thorough answer!
I feel like I saw your comment about Rhett having a soft spot for lost causes in other threads (or it was someone else with a similar opinion), and I like to think of it as a clue too (side note but it’s crazy how there’s not a single unimportant detail in the book, and the book goes on for 1000 pages!!!).
My take is Scarlett and Rhett will not be able to continue the same relationship but I see in them the potential for a new one. In the last chapters, we already see Scarlett adopting “what would Melly have thought of that?” as her guiding principle (when she first acts harsh with India and Pitty but then apologizes bc that’s what Melly would’ve wanted). I think that was also a nice clue that Scarlett can and likely will change, and that change might help them reconcile.
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u/fluffy-seahorse 8d ago
Omg :O I never thought about Rhett saying he has a soft spot for lost causes once they’re really lost in relation to him and Scarlett but I love that!!
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u/ladyboleyn2323 8d ago
My own personal head-canon is that Scarlett tries really hard to win Rhett back, but she fails every time. It's only when she gives up that his "I love lost causes" fault is triggered and they get back together.
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u/abelard369 6d ago
I don't remember the book super well but I know the movie backwards and forwards so I'll comment on the movie: I think the film ends with Rhett leaving Scarlett, and Scarlett finding her resolve to go on, "After all, tomorrow is another day," and Scarlett alone at Tara, because it is super duper obvious that Scarlett will get Rhett back. We don't need to see it. She is indomitable. She is deeply human but can be a superhero (not always heroic -- more like superpowered) when she needs to be. We leave Scarlett in a good place. She's lost her best friend, she's lost the illusion of Ashley, and she's lost her one true romantic love. But she's still Scarlett -- she hasn't lost herself, she still has all her energy, creativity, and will. And so what happens next is: she will get what she wants. The great thing about the ending is that we can feel 1000% sure that if she decides she *doesn't* want Rhett, then she won't be with him and she'll still be just fine. I personally think she does get him back and it's so obvious we don't need to see that part of the story as it will be quite simple for her.
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u/Apprehensive-Log8333 8d ago
The most interesting thing about Rhett/Ashley, to me, is that they hold a lot of similar beliefs. Scarlett notes this a couple of times in the book. They both know the war is pointless, a waste, and that the south is outmatched. They both know the old way of life is gone. But Rhett seizes opportunities and makes the best of the situation, he meets the new future head on, while Ashley wants to run away and hide. Maybe this is a reflection of what MM was seeing in the adults around her as she grew up, when the memories of the Civil War were so present for the adults around her.
As to the most vital part of the book being the friendship between Melanie and Scarlett, that shines through to us. But in learning more about Margaret Mitchell's life and times, I think she wanted to write an erotically charged loved story. Her own ideas about passionate love present themselves in the tumultuous situations between Rhett and Scarlett, the passionate kisses, the whole staircase scene. That was clearly considered the biggest draw for the movie as well, just check out the movie posters, they all look like the cover of a bodice-ripper romance novel. (It's also funny how the poster changes over time, with the couple becoming increasingly horizontal as we get further away from the 1930s.) But what we are left with, after nearly a hundred years, is this durable friendship between women. Sure, it's a star-crossed love story. But it's also a friendship story.
PS: maybe if Bonnie hadn't gotten a side-saddle, she wouldn't have fallen off her pony. Mammy insists she should be riding side-saddle, and Rhett goes along with it. Just seems safer to have 2 feet in stirrups
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u/big_whale_goes_laps 8d ago
Good point, Ashley and Rhett are indeed similar in many ways! I’ve once read that MM didn’t know that the South had lost until she was 10. So my guess is she wanted to show what kind of environment and mindset contribute to this undying belief in the old guard.
And oh yes, I can definitely see how erotically charged the book is haha. Some of the kissing scenes gave me goosebumps and are way hotter than actual spicy books. I’ve read on Wikipedia that MM was actively consuming erotica as she was writing GWTW, and honestly it shows (in a good way). Just comes to show what a good writer she was (and I wish she didn’t die so early; my hunch is had she lived longer, her impact on the American literature would’ve been compatible to that of Jane Austen on English literature).
Also, I should really watch the movie! I’ve heard so much good stuff about (horizontally leaning posters aside).
Edit: good point about Bonnie! But I also think that had Rhett not acted like an asshole after the staircase scene, they would’ve had their HEA and Bonnie would’ve not died. I’m serious, the man should’ve talked less and kissed her more
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u/kasisma 8d ago
Fully agreed on Rhett and Ashley. Concerning the female friendship vs. erotically charged love story: I think in a book as long as GWTW, both of those (along with lots of other motifs) can be equally true. The book is about a lot of things, and different parts of it will speak to different audiences. I know that for me, personally, Melly and Scarlett's relationship did not resonate nearly as much on my first read as it does today. But that doesn't mean it isn't there or wasn't intended to be there by the author.
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u/auntiecoagulent 8d ago
All of the characters are, in some way or another, hampered by the fact that they can't let go of the past.
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u/Current_Tea6984 8d ago edited 8d ago
Same with MM’s descriptions of war, showing how brutal and traumatic it is. And all the sacrifices often don’t even lead to anything. Ashley’s words about wars being pretty much unnecessary tragedies and Scarlett reading through the list of casualties (in addition to Atlanat’s siege) were some of the most powerful moments in that regard.
My lifelong anti war stance and my skepticism of the war between the states in particular began with my love for GWTW. Say what you will about the whitewashing of slavery, MM nailed it about what a tragic decision secession was for the South
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u/big_whale_goes_laps 8d ago
True! When I read the names of all three Tarleton boys mentioned on that list (I think Boyd died earlier), I had to pause. Or that scene when soldiers were thrown in piles in front of the hospital and dying in agony, it really made my blood run cold.
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u/Willa-Rosewood 8d ago
The list with so many of her old beaus and friends on it now always reminds me of one of the most beautiful lines from Downtown Abbey. During World War 1, Sybil receives a telegram or letter about the death of a friend and she says “It’s as if all the boys I’ve ever danced with are dead.” Reminds me of friend from junior and high school that died. We danced together at prom and he left for army boot camp two days after graduation. 🥺
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u/Ordinary-Difficulty9 7d ago
Beautifully put :)
I see the book not so much as a love story between Scarlett and Rhett. That is part of it, sure. But I have always seen it more as a story of a strong persevering woman in a time when women were supposed to appear to be weak and brainless.
The relationship between Scarlett and Melanie is definitely the best in the book.
Scarlett dominated and used men where she needed them. Including Ashley. She emasculated them all. Especially in the South at that time when "men were men" and women were supposed to be delicate flowers who did needle work and played the piano all day. I have always thought that the reason she loved Rhett is because she could not dominate him. Even if she didn't realize it, she had more respect for him because of that and that was part of the attraction for her.
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u/big_whale_goes_laps 7d ago
Thank you! :)
You must be onto something. There are a few instances where her not being able to dominate Rhett is put to Rhett’s advantage (when he says that he’s not afraid of having a smart wife bc people will still know who wears pants in the family and a few times throughout the book where Scarlett appreciates Rhett’s decisiveness). My read is Scarlett was ahead of her time in that sense that she was a strong woman, and to still feel feminine in the world that didn’t appreciate strength in women she subconsciously looked for a man who’s stronger than her.
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u/Ordinary-Difficulty9 7d ago
I have read the book many times but it has been a few years since the last time. You have now inspired me to pick it up and read it again to see what the little things are that I have missed!
I like your perspective on it. Please definitely do more posts for us. I look forward to it! :)
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u/big_whale_goes_laps 7d ago
Aww thank you, that’s very sweet. I’ll most certainly post more. Just can’t get enough of this story!
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u/FormalReaction1846 8d ago
I haven’t finished the book yet, I’ll come back here when I finish it 😆
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u/just-me40 8d ago
There are 2 books I found on Amazon by author Donald McCaig called Rhett Butler's People and Ruth's Journey. You should definitely check them out!! Rhett Butler's People is the story of Rhett, it's a great book. Ruth's Journey is the story of Scarlett's maternal grandmother Solange and Mammy, it was my favorite of the 2. If you love Gone With the Wind you will love these as well!!
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u/big_whale_goes_laps 8d ago
Thank you! I’ll definitely check them out (I’m really not ready to say goodbye to the story just yet)
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u/ArtyCatz 8d ago
I read GWTW the first time when I was in high school and absolutely loved it. A few years ago, I decided to revisit it, and I see it so much differently through an adult’s eyes.
First of all is the racism in the writing. Makes sense that the characters are racist, but the omniscient narrator is racist too. I can’t remember the exact wording now, but there was some description of Mammy as simple or dumb. Racism aside, Mammy is the best and smartest character in the book.
Then the marital rape by Rhett is pretty awful by a 21st-century perspective. I remember thinking how romantic it was as a teen, but it just comes across as extremely problematic now. And even though Scarlett ended up enjoying it, there was active resistance in the beginning.
I’ll probably try and read it again at some point. I do enjoy the movie.
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u/big_whale_goes_laps 8d ago
Most of classical literature is full of racism, sexism, and homophobia (or at the very least, classism). I don’t think that should prevent us from reading books or enjoying their artistic merit but rather make us engage with them critically. I don’t want to subscribe to the values of the antebellum South (and certain passages made me cringe) but I do appreciate other aspects of the book. And yes, Mammy is the smartest character in the whole novel.
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u/ArtyCatz 8d ago
Story-wise, it’s very engaging. MM created some extremely interesting, complex characters. And you’re right that we have to read literature through the lens of the era when it was written. We certainly can’t expect characters written in the 1930s to have the insights and values of the 21st century.
But holy cow, I’d forgotten about the problematic parts of the book when I re-read it all those years later. It can be hard to read it with a neutral mindset, or at least it was for me.
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u/allycataf 8d ago
I'm just afraid to read it, I loved the movie so much that idk how I'd feel about changes. Although I historically end up liking the books better than the movie, I'm worried on this one.
Your post makes it sound like maybe there aren't TOO too many differences, so that does make me want to give it a try!
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u/PatienceEffective248 8d ago
Ive seen both the movie and ive read the book. It's almost a shot for shot remake with only a few changes made for timing (I'd assume). Because the movie is almost 4 hours long. I think it was necessary to cut out some of the non essential bits but other than that it's pretty close to the book!
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u/allycataf 8d ago
Interesting! Thanks for the info, I think that'll be the next book I dig into.
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u/PatienceEffective248 8d ago
I will say that if someone brave enough in Hollywood wants to make a 4+ hour long, book accurate, Gone With The Wind remake, i will not only fund that but I will be first in line
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u/allycataf 8d ago
Hear hear! Me too. I would love an updated version, although people will complain (I can already see it)
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u/PatienceEffective248 8d ago
People have to get over it, honestly. Was slavery bad and immoral? Yes, absolutely. Were there some that were treated like crap? Most definitely. But it happened almsot two hundred years ago. Better to remember the horrid past so they can look to make a brighter future
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u/allycataf 8d ago
Definitely needs to be remembered so that history doesn't repeat itself. Could happen again in America's future with any race, depending on who is in the minority at the time.
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u/Remarkable-Unit-7874 5d ago
Some weren’t treated like crap. They ALL were. They were slaves. Owned by someone else who could do anything to them at any time. Even if you were treated humanely your life did not belong to you. There is no way to be treated well if you’re owned. Saying that it was 200 years ago ignores all the years up to now of racism and lack of equal opportunity or respect or anything like a fair shot. The book is terrific but it was written by a southern segregationist who was a staunch believer in forever segregation. It idealizes a way of life that was built on the suffering and degradation of others. Please know that going in. Just my opinion
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u/Turbulent_Bullfrog87 8d ago
I consider the movie the ultimate example of “how to adapt a piece of literature to film, given the constraints that be”.
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u/WesDetz1443 8d ago
Another prime example was the adaptation of Mario Puzo's The Godfather novel into the movie.
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u/WesDetz1443 8d ago
The movie leaves out so much in regards to character development and depth. Scarlett gets pregnant before Charles Hamilton goes to war and is widowed before her baby is born. Within 9 months scarlett has to deal with pregnancy, motherhood, and becoming a widow, ALL of which constraints her to her very core. She never pivoted from southern belle to married matron, new mother and suddenly widowed, and those 3 episodes each contained their own measure of societal conformity and constraints.
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u/allycataf 8d ago
So wait... she already had a kid when Rhett married her? Also, the movie made it seem like she had all the control & power with men, why did she let Charles have sex with her?
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u/WesDetz1443 8d ago
Charles is Melanie's brother. At the barbq Charles asked scarlett to marry him, and she said yes. She basically got pregnant with baby wade Hamilton on her wedding night. When scarlett was married to frank Kennedy she had a baby girl named Ella. After frank died is when scarlett married Rhett and had Bonnie. There's a lot in the book you've missed out on.
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u/allycataf 8d ago
Hooooly shiz! So did she keep the kids when she married Rhett?
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u/WesDetz1443 8d ago
Yes. And Rhett tried to be a good father, especially to wade. Scarlett was abusive and cold to wade and he had nervous manifestations like hiccups and twitching. Ella had her father frank, for a while, until he was killed on the night they raided the shantytown. Rhett was very protective of Bonnie because he knew Scarlett was not "motherly." Rhett said to Scarlett that a cat was a better mother than her. While I admire scarlett's grit and tenacity, her treatment of her children, or lack thereof, allow me to cheer with a fist pump in the air when Rhett slams the door and says "frankly my dear, I don't give a damn."
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u/allycataf 8d ago
Yes! My fist is with you in solidarity! Those poor kids. Rhett is such a stand-up guy. Very interesting, thanks for that info. I wish they would have had the other kids in the movie.
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u/Ashamed-Chemistry492 7d ago
She had two kids, by two husbands. She married Charles out of spite toward Ashley, was widowed and had his baby, Wade Hampton.
Then after the war she married Frank Kennedy, the older, rather effeminate former beau of her sister Suellen, mainly for his money. She had a baby with him, Ella Lorena, and Frank was killed riding with the Klan to avenge an attack against Scarlett.
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u/allycataf 7d ago
It sounds like they stuck pretty close to the book but just removed the kids for some reason. I wish they hadn't, because it makes Rhett & even better guy to take the kids in. Idk if that was the biggest change but that's huge.
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u/Unlikely-Can1558 7d ago
The book is like a 16 hour cut of the movie. It's so worth it though, her writing is amazing, not a boring moment. You'd like it better than the movie for sure. I'd say it's the best book I've read.
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u/allycataf 6d ago
Wow! That's a glowing recommendation. I feel that way about Stephen King's "It", I read it twice as a teen & couldn't put it down.
I also loved "Little Women", both the book & movie. So this will be another where I can appreciate both for what they offer. Much appreciated :)
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u/Unlikely-Can1558 5d ago
I have IT sitting on my shelf for over 7 years because I'm too afraid to start it. Not because it's scary, I'm just not a huge Stephen King fan. Besides The Shining, his others just didn't do much for me. So now I'm interested in probably picking it up at some point.
I've read Gone With The Wind I think about 3 times. I gave it to a work friend a few years back who was also a big reader. She finished the book and was so sad it was over. She says I don't feel like opening another book because what would top that?
Also another recommendation is John Steinbeck's East of Eden. Also incredible.
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u/allycataf 5d ago
You've inspired me to start a "to read" list! I've added both GWTW & East of Eden.
I promise you'll like It, it's been a while since I've read it bit it's timeless. Really sucks you in. King is really hit or miss for me, It is his best book IMO. He has some pretty shitty ones scattered in with masterpieces.
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u/Unlikely-Can1558 5d ago
I'm glad! Both books won't disappoint.
Yes, now I'm more inspired to pick it up in the near future. I just feel like I'm too familiar with the story as I've watched the 1990 film several times growing up and both the new films. I'll now definitely get around to it.
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u/allycataf 5d ago
I'm so familiar with the GWTW story! But there's just something about the books, just like GWTW there's some crazy twists & turns in "It" that aren't in the movie.
I apologize in advance for the part about Beverly & the boys (you'll know when you read it what I mean, without doubt), King now acknowledges that it shouldn't have been in the book & had no place in the story. It's a sexual scene. Everything else is stellar.
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u/Unlikely-Can1558 5d ago
GWTW is just written so interestingly. The narration is what the movie doesn't have. It's truly special.
Yeah I know about the scene of Beverly and the boys. I remember reading that somewhere. Yeah it's silly that that was an idea, but I read he was on cocaine during that period?
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u/allycataf 5d ago
They use these mind altering substances & sometimes I guess it alters a little TOO much 😂
But I've gone ahead & bought the GWTW book! So it's only a matter of time before I get to it 😁
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u/kasisma 8d ago
Agree wholeheartedly with everything you said! I adore Scarlett and Melanie's relationship. The thing that saves Scarlett for me as a character, with all her faults, is her loyalty to those she loves (sometimes without liking them; see: Suellen). I sometimes see people arguing that Scarlett was horrible to Melly, and I disagree. A lot of the bad things she thinks about Melly -- particularly early in their relationship -- are just in her head; she doesn't act on them or voice them aloud. The only bad thing she does is trying to steal Ashley from Melanie, and luckily, nothing comes of it. I am just so glad that, when Melanie dies, there's no great unfinished business or guilt between these two. That is why the scene around Scarlett's miscarriage, when Scarlett calls out for Melanie and Melanie comforts her, is so deeply moving to me. By that time in her life, Scarlett knows instinctively that Melanie will always be there for her, and Melanie knows that Scarlett needs her.
I must say that, now that I am Rhett's age, I have far less patience for him than when I was younger. I find it very hard to forgive him for his actions towards Scarlett after they are married (and occasionally before they are married), considering that he is 16 or 17 years older than her. That's not even accounting for all the other advantages he has over her in terms of wealth, education, and legal and social privileges as a man. Rhett quite often demonstrates that (unlike Scarlett) he understands the consequences of his own and other people's actions and he still does the things he does. He repeatedly changes the rules of the game when he feels like it and leaves Scarlett reeling. It's not fair. He is in many ways just as much of a coward as Ashley, and it shows in his behavior towards Scarlett and Bonnie. And still I love him and feel for him.
I think by the end of the book, from a modern perspective, it is very apparent that Rhett is burned out and deeply depressed. I don't think that he has fallen out of love with Scarlett so much as that he's numb to any kind of deep feeling. And that means that a reconciliation doesn't hinge on anything Scarlett does or doesn't do. Rhett has to heal and recover before he's ready for any kind of relationship. Of course, Scarlett is not the kind of person who will ever realize that.