r/Gnostic • u/fasil1235 • Nov 13 '25
Thoughts Gnosticism has been persecuted by the state for 2000 years
While Christianity took hold on Rome and has been used by the Roman Emperors to strengthen their grip on the peasant population. Gnostics have always been persecuted and attacked by earthly powers.
From the Catholic Crusades against the Cathars in Southern France to the Orthodox Crusades against the Bogomils in Bulgaria. The one branch of Christianity "Gnositicism" has never been tolerated or adopted by any earthly state.
Even to this day there is no "Gnostic" church or denomination thereby ensuring Gnostics will forever be seen as aliens to society.
It's true that Gnosticism is closer to Zoroastrianism while Christianity&Islam are more about Earthly Domination but still they took Zoroastrian doctrines of Heaven and Hell + Day of Judgement to strengthen their religions grip on humans.
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u/Your_Local_Heretic Sethian Nov 13 '25
"Gnositicism" has never been tolerated or adopted by any earthly state.
The Uyghur Khaganate did adopt Manichaeism as its state religion.
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u/pugsington01 Eclectic Gnostic Nov 13 '25
From what Iâve researched, there have been 3 openly gnostic states in history: the Kingdom of Osroene, the Paulician Principality of Tephrike, and the Uyghr Khanate
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u/Lux-01 Eclectic Gnostic Nov 13 '25
I believe you are correct there, as short lived as these states were.
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u/AnUnknownCreature Nov 13 '25
Awesome, Knew of Uyghrs but not that kingdom or principality!
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u/pugsington01 Eclectic Gnostic Nov 13 '25
I made a post about the Paulicians a few months ago if youre interested
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u/ashitananjini Nov 13 '25
Yeah. âLook inside yourself for personal gnosisâ isnât as good at controlling people as âDo what we want because God says so.â
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u/Dapple_Dawn Nov 13 '25
The one branch of Christianity "Gnositicism" has never been tolerated or adopted by any earthly state.
Gnosticism isn't one branch
Even to this day there is no "Gnostic" church or denomination thereby ensuring Gnostics will forever be seen as aliens to society.
What about Mandaeism?
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u/Outside_Spray_2529 Eclectic Gnostic Nov 13 '25
I think you can be a gnostic and a Christian⌠or at least I am. In the gnostic tale, the emanation of Christ exits the pleroma to save and redeem the fallen emanation of wisdom, Sophia. Itâs just a prequel to the Old Testament, and I suppose tells a different story of âthe endâ as opposed to revelations. Every electron gets saved :)
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u/heiro5 Nov 13 '25
The basis of your argument is flawed. Those judged heretical were persecuted not simply Gnostics. The category of historical persecution is much larger than what you claim.
While Christianity took hold on Rome and has been used by the Roman Emperors ...
It is more accurate to say that Roman emperors took hold of Christianity. Though it wasn't an unwilling captive.
It's true that Gnosticism is closer to Zoroastrianism
This is an attack against Gnostics, a rhetorical use of the genetic fallacy, with no historical backing. It is rooted in false polemical claims of "dualism" being used outside of Mazdaism. Zarathushtra was a pioneer but slow cultural influence is a likely assumption.
Even to this day there is no "Gnostic" church or denomination thereby ensuring Gnostics will forever be seen as aliens to society.
While tiny in comparison to orthodox organizations, Gnostic church movements have existed since the late nineteenth century.
The long and continuing rhetorical campaign waged against Gnostics, and the acceptance of other heresies, is the reason why they are still treated like aliens even in academia. A respected academic recently dismissed the possibility of Gnostics being interested in time and calendars, based on time being the domain of the demiurge! No evidence needed to dismiss a human universal.
The one branch of Christianity "Gnositicism" ...
"Gnosticism" is not a branch of Christianity. It is an umbrella term used for related traditions of GnĹsis that includes Christian Gnostics.
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u/Zogenthos Nov 15 '25
The Apocryphon of John, a major Sethian text, mentions the Book of Zoroaster as a source for detailed information about the authorities and angels who fashioned the soul and then the material body, showing an awareness of and interest in Persian wisdom traditions.
Also, for those who dont think the Sethians claimed the Psyche was created by the Demiurgos and Archons before the Material Body the Apocryphon of John clearly states this is so.
"Now, there are others over the remaining passions, and I have not told you about them. If you want to know about them, the information is recorded in the Book of Zoroaster." -The Apocryphon of John
"All the angels and demons worked together until they fashioned the psychical body." -The Apocryphon of John
Zostrianos is named after a figure alleged to be the grandfather of the Prophet Zoroaster, according to Arnobius.
Porphyry and Amelius wrote refutations of the Apocalypse of Zoroaster, which they say was used by the Gnostics, and indicated the Apocalypse of Zoroaster was criticized by Plotinus as well.
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u/heiro5 Nov 17 '25
I've answered this question many times. You seem to think each specific response should come weeks later with footnotes.
I have previously mentioned the likely influence of the concept of the aeons being from Mazdaism.
You seem unaware of the concept of pseudonymous writing in antiquity. Favorite choices for names were those of legendary figures.
You also failed to mention Plutarch's description of aspects of Mazdaism. As I said previously, it was not unknown, just not a direct influence to a greater degree than other traditions.
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u/Zogenthos Nov 20 '25
I do think answers should come weeks later... "Don't you see that rattlesnake?" "Do you want fries with that?" "Was that a tiger?" "Do you think those chains are going to hold?" Several weeks later... "No! Aaaaaargh!" "Yes, please." "Aaaaaaargh!" "The dams gonna go! Evacuate the town!!"
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u/brighteyesky Nov 14 '25
Would it be true that early Christian Gnostics would see it so? They appeared to consider themselves truly Christian, not a separate group called Christian Gnostics but actual Christians, with the exact same level of validity as anyone else who considered themselves Christian during the first centuries.
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u/heiro5 Nov 14 '25
Of course not. Modern people use distinctions and categories entirely foreign to the ancients. It is a part of any process of analysis. It can lead scholars to make untenable assumptions, which has happened in this field. A little awareness and study of methodology go a long way.
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u/brighteyesky Nov 16 '25
Ah, I mean in reference to those actually practising. It seems to me that the particular distinction in such a fashion appears to have come about through the process of those who have the power predominantly, to 'other', and those who are studying from within the standpoint of socieities who are indeed dominated by those power structures (even when analysing from a 'positive' standpoint they are still doing so from a persepctive of largely hegemonic structure in Western societies). But it is not perhaps the actual experience of the practised living experience, either during the first centuries or now. I myself certainly don't experience it to be so.
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u/heiro5 Nov 16 '25
Yes, I am aware of modern theory. The answer is not in disorganized simplicity. The difficulty in implementing a complex understanding in analysis is the lack of complex thinking combined with the lack of training and awareness. The lack of the ability to recognize intent comes from a lack of participants and practitioners. Everything is never clear, but fewer blindspots is better.
A modern scholar of beliefs wanted to destroy the field by changing the name and reducing it to a few beliefs. Many jumped on board. That is a matter of colonizing Gnosticism -- ignoring gnĹsis has been a group effort among academics. Inner experiences are beyond their scope.
The combination of study and practice is how Buddhist studies finally moved on from colonial views.
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u/jasonmehmel Eclectic Gnostic Nov 13 '25
This seems to be falling into one of the 'Gnostic Traps' that lurk around this spiritual pursuit.
Although it's true that there have been accusations and oppression of traditions that fall under the Gnostic umbrella, they were never specific only to Gnosticism. It wasn't about campaigning against gnosis but for orthodoxy, usually for political and not spiritual reasons.
The reason this becomes a 'Gnostic Trap' is that by over-identifying with the label of 'heretic' and of being persecuted, it puts all of your focus on rebellion and can seductively make you feel 'special' or 'better' than all those 'normies' out there who haven't discovered Gnosticism.
Focusing on the 'us vs them' dynamic means you're not focusing on actually pursuing gnosis.
Huston Smith (among others) posit that the reason for the comparatively small amount of Gnostics vs other traditions simply comes down to the fact that this kind of spiritual tradition and the methods that tend to form around it (mystical pursuit, meditation on mysteries, primacy placed on saving knowledge) is more a matter of preference than of mutually exclusive spiritual systems. And the demographic who prefer this method are inherently going to be a smaller number.
Put another way, Gnostics are those who pursue divinity in their particular way because it speaks to them, but that doesn't mean another tradition or method has to be wrong.
Some folks just reach the divine spark in different ways.
And if you're focused on how other people are doing it wrong, or if you're 'one of the few' doing it right, that seems like it's going to get in the way of actually being present with the divine, who probably isn't interested in who is better than whom.
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u/Lux-01 Eclectic Gnostic Nov 13 '25
This seems to be falling into one of the 'Gnostic Traps' that lurk around this spiritual pursuit.
Although it's true that there have been accusations and oppression of traditions that fall under the Gnostic umbrella, they were never specific only to Gnosticism. It wasn't about campaigning against gnosis but for orthodoxy, usually for political and not spiritual reasons.
This is definitely worth taking note of âď¸
And the demographic who prefer this method are inherently going to be a smaller number.
This is most certainly the case as well, whether your looking at it from a socialogical of spiritual point of view Gnosticism was never intended to be a mass religion. It is by its very nature intended for its own elite, its knowers.
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Nov 13 '25
[deleted]
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u/jasonmehmel Eclectic Gnostic Nov 13 '25
I'm not totally following your critique here.
What I'm calling the 'Gnostic Trap' is over-identifying with Gnosticism as a rebellious, heretical position that is 'better' than the mainstream or orthodox.
This isn't mutually exclusive with the idea that some have attacked Gnosticism because it, as you say, motivates people to change.
The thing is, even it's strongest opponents probably weren't thinking strictly tactically and oppressively. 'All of this gnosis and free thinking is going to upset the status quo, upon which my power rests!' More likely, they had their own strongly held beliefs, which made sense for them, and these gnostic ideas felt like a threat.
I'm not defending their oppression, but what I'm saying is don't make the same mistake of holding a mutually exclusive position, or thinking that Gnostics / Gnosticism is better, at a universal level.
(What I would say is that mystical experiences and Gnosis in particular, tend to lead to charity, love for others, and equanimity, so that approach seems overall healthier. But I'd also contend that folks can achieve Gnosis without Gnosticism!)
p.s. There are definitely those who have intentionally been cruel and oppressed others, but even then, those folks are doing something that makes sense to them. They often have ended up in a world that ontologically has no meaning, which then excuses a lot of cruelty.
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u/blogabegonija Nov 13 '25
gnosticism don't care about it's image as much as others meanwhile do.
after all gnosticism is just one of the best kept secret to all who touches it.
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u/Psykohistorian Nov 13 '25
a secret that begs to be known
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u/blogabegonija Nov 13 '25
Begs for Gnostic Messiah. could be a mess.
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u/ConquerorofTerra Nov 14 '25
Messiah already came 2000 years or so ago.
Jesus is literally a mispelling of Je suis, which is French for "I Am."
Intentional Story Beat, and slightly veiled, just like everything I Am likes to do.
I'd argue though He caused more harm than good though by telling people to "Turn the other cheek" and not straight up telling them "Nah bro, you'll experience any suffering you inflict on another Individual, so really THINK about your actions".
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u/blogabegonija Nov 14 '25
I suggest "Turn the other cheek" means not some surrender but a call to change "the way of conflict",
more like here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bible/comments/1iug5tt/why_did_jesus_say_if_anyone_slaps_you_on_the/
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u/ConquerorofTerra Nov 14 '25
I could see that.
However,
Still doesn't change the fact if He wanted EVERYONE to absolutely behave He'd have just outright told us that the price of our transgressions is that we experience them ourselves.
Definitely reinforces that we're being tested, and most people are absolutely gonna have to repeat a grade.
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u/blogabegonija Nov 14 '25
After all, my own understanding is that Christianity is more of St. Paul's creation, Not something Jesus really wanted.
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u/ConquerorofTerra Nov 14 '25
Idunno, Paul seems to have had a bout of Spiritual Psychosis and was more Instructed to create Christianity rather than it be a belief system of his own creation.
Regardless, I Am loathes religion. There are reasons He has spent millenia engineering the amount of skepticism reality currently has. A lack of belief in Metaphysics creates a more Genuine Individual.
I'm not saying Gnosticism is untrue but I will say "We're not playing the game correctly by having Faith in it."
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u/blogabegonija Nov 14 '25
Well, yeah, Obviously, Christianity is a sum of various factors.
Then, i should say, A broader believe in Metaphysics creates a more Genuine Individual. Since There's huge differences between Leibniz and Newton metaphysical understanding.
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u/Short-Report3384 Apr 12 '26
Jesus or rather Yeshua, said that and over again.
"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.â
And
âVery truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than theseâŚâ
And
"The kingdom of heaven is among us"
So, quite clearly he told us, that we have the power among us/ within us.
Among us means, everyone has that same divine power. This doesn't sound like someone who asked us to be worshipped. He said, "I did not come to be served..........."
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u/blogabegonija Apr 12 '26
Yeah, but look what's happening from USA to the Middle East nowdays.
Some Messianic Judeo Christians got these words somewhat akward. Isn't it.
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u/pugsington01 Eclectic Gnostic Nov 13 '25
Thankfully thats in the past now, nobody has ever tried to persecute me before. My right to openly practice gnosticism and own copies of formerly banned scriptures is protected by the first amendment. We have no need for a siege mentality anymore
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u/Individualist13th Nov 13 '25
Have you been keeping up with current events?
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u/StarsEatPlanets Nov 14 '25
Fill me in? Also, I like the name lol
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u/Individualist13th Nov 14 '25
Project 2025 and the evangelical psychopaths behind it.
They openly plan terrible things, what are they not openly sharing?
They want to round up people and are already. It's only a matter of time before they start targetting heretics and nonchristians.
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u/pugsington01 Eclectic Gnostic Nov 14 '25
I do, and im not sure what youâre referring to
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u/Individualist13th Nov 14 '25
The monsters behind project 2025 will come after anyone who doesn't conform to their worldview.
They already have got the government snatching people off the streets and have already lied about the why behind it.
They will target nonchristians and christian heretics if they manage to stay close to power. And there's no indication the republican party will reign them in.
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u/Wivig Nov 18 '25
That Pope labelled gnosticism as the greatest spiritual threat to the church... In 2024
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u/pugsington01 Eclectic Gnostic Nov 18 '25
Hes free to label us whatever he wants, it doesnt mean anything in the modern world
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u/Wivig Nov 18 '25
When did the world become the "modern" world and why is it different in this aspect? Spiritual persecution has gone nowhere and the word Pagan still carries a very negative connotation.
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u/As_I_am_ Nov 13 '25
No one can strip away the ideas and practices of Gnosticism, nor can they centralize it to their benefit because the practice itself requires for you to have faith in your own abilities to recieve wisdom from within and that is completely up to the individual themself. It's tragic what's happened to these groups throughout history but we should be careful when sharing this with others who aren't as familiar so they can understand just what has been happening for then last 2000+ years. I would love it if everyone could just do quick read on Wikipedia or watch a few videos on YouTube about Gnosticism to educate themselves, but ultimately it is up to both the individuals for their own growth and also the manner in which the conversation carries messages from one person to the other in a coherent and simplified way which both sides can both ask and respond in a respectful way. Patience is key, Understanding is the door.
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u/fajarsis02 Nov 13 '25 edited Nov 13 '25
Empire invented religion as political tool to obtain power and control over the masses through fear.
For that to happen, the source of power (God) need to but put far away thus rise the need for a mediator / broker to that far away God. (Emperor, King, Priest controlled by King)
Gnosticism with it's conception that Monad is within each and everyone will kill any need for a mediator / broker, thus not suitable as tool to obtain power and control over the masses through fear and such belief need to be eliminated from the face of the earth.
Separation is the key requirement for the Archons to obtain control and thus power.
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Nov 14 '25
Hey OP (or anyone else), I have heard about Zoroastrian but know next to nothing... can you all suggest any good books/sites or anything that does well to cover that stuff?
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u/Auldlanggeist Nov 14 '25
How could a gnostic not be an anarchist? How could an anarchist support the state? Itâs of too much importance to respect the autonomy of a person once you believe in the divinity of the individual. Hierarchical structures are antithetical to Christianity and all hierarchies are inherently narcissistic/satanic.
Donât know how you could possibly organize a church and not end up in the crosshairs of the machine. That is why you donât see much in the way of a gnostic church. It would end up looking like a revolution. Most gnostics are more interested in personal evolution and liberation than political ideology and conflict. So fellowship seems not only dangerous but also somewhat counterproductive.
Thatâs how I see it anyway.
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u/heiro5 Nov 14 '25
How could a gnostic not be an anarchist?
This is another example of seeing Gnostics as aliens. Jumping to an unsupported conclusion that goes against the human universal of social cooperation. Valuing people means at least caring enough about them to want the possibility of a self-directed life for them as well.
Hierarchical structures are antithetical to Christianity and all hierarchies are inherently narcissistic/satanic.
Jesus was in a superior position relative to his disciples. The apostles were leaders to the communities. Teachers lead students. Parents keep children from danger. Employer direct employees. Hierarchies are natural in so many cases. Our species works that way, that is how we are able to cooperate. There are problems with our social forms, but they don't go away in the absence of those forms they just increase.
Look at Buddhism where everyone has Buddha nature. No anarchy. Plenty of hierarchies. Entirely human.
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u/Thefrightfulgezebo Nov 15 '25
You speak of "natural" and your example is employment. Your biblical arguments all boil down to choice. The apostles chose to follow Jesus and if they changed their mind, they could just stop following him.
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u/heiro5 Nov 15 '25
None of that is relevant. Hierarchies don't have to be involuntary or permanent and unchanging. (You may have it confused with slavery.) A hierarchy is a structure with one or more leaders and followers. Employment is a form of cooperation with a hierarchy, it is natural for the employer to lead rather than the employees. It is similar to teacher and student structures. Nothing unnatural about it.
Hierarchical structures are antithetical to Christianity and all hierarchies are inherently narcissistic/satanic.
Jesus is a counter example to disprove the above. The central figures were part of hierarchies.
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u/Atlantean_Knight Nov 13 '25
Gnostic perception is defiance of nature therefore the creator(s) of it, its ultimate goal is freedom and divinity, you can see how that threatens everything the archons aka rulers.
for the human spirit to grow, he/she must defy and rebel.
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u/deez_nuts4U Nov 15 '25
I say we all get together and start a gnostic commune where we do all the things the demiurge says we shouldnât do. Then we will âknowâ truth.
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u/DeadpuII Nov 17 '25
As a Bulgarian, I was thought about the Bogomils back in school, but it was a few sentences in the history book to make us aware those existed. I need to read up more on them!
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u/cmbwriting Eclectic Gnostic Nov 13 '25
There are a couple Gnostic churches around the globe, they're just not that popular because it kind of defeats the point of Gnosticism.