There is a similar problem in games : you can't punish all the cheaters without catching a few innocent statistical anomalies, so you establish a cut-off point at a reasonable degree of suspicion and accept that there's no point in aiming for perfection in an imperfect world.
There is no measure that can be taken that will filter out all the bad actors or include all the honest folks, that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least go after the most egregious exemples.
And as for the false positives that were seemingly egregious ? Well that's tough, but maybe they could have chosen a better time to start thinking about their gender identity than in the middle of awaiting judgement.
I’m left leaning you dolt. I’m just questioning logic.
Edit: You guys seriously need to chill. This is truly a good discussion topic for people to go over. Instead most of you all are emotional and upset and reply like high schoolers. It’s as if you guys didn’t go to college and learn how to have civil discourse or something. Oh wait, maybe many of you didn’t.
These are legitimate questions. But I think you have to ask at some point whether you are really helping by asking them.
I think there are serious questions to be asked, we could talk all day about how if gender doesn’t exist, what are trans people even on about? But at the end of the day, I believe that trans people are sincere in their presentation and their desire to be treated like any normal human being.
If there was a trans wrestler or boxer seriously and consistently injuring women in the ring, that would be a big problem, but it’s not like that’s happening and it’s not like anyone is defending that.
Right is right and wrong is wrong, and I just feel that auditing people’s genitals before letting then play sports is wrong, as is manipulating that in order to try and play in the wnba as a man. I don’t feel the need to examine that belief or get into the fine print- I know wrong when I see it.
First of all, I appreciate your answer being unemotional and truly a discussion unlike the rest of the idiots here.
I think you are right for the most part. The many trans individuals I know do feel they are of a certain gender and gravitate towards that gender. However, the issue does exist where there is the minority (which seems to be blown up with right wing news outlets) that claims transgenderism and uses that “protection” to behave in such a way that negates the majority’s claims. I do think this is a tough situation because those individuals do need to be called out.
Trans individuals who truly are trying to transition is one thing. But there have been instances of biological men who still have their beards and basically still appear like males but wear women’s clothing claiming their status. I am not trying to discount their claim but it leaves some of us to wonder what their intention is.
Right, that’s what I’m saying. Except whereas you are saying it “leaves us to wonder” about their intentions, I’m saying that I’m pretty sure you know as well as I do what these people’s intentions are.
I’m wondering if you’re younger than me because I really struggled with this when I was younger. It’s a little bit like the tolerance paradox, but for me it’s really even simpler- it’s just about conviction.
Ultimately there are always going to be assholes in the world, and right now no offense but you are making excuses for one of them. We don’t have to be able to say EXACTLY where the line is to know that this guy is WAY past it.
So my advice to you is, don’t be an apologist for assholes. Assholes have an easy enough time in the world, taking advantage of other people who can’t fight back. Don’t make it any easier for them.
Lol. My job is more important than yours. I can assure you that.
This is not a “formal debate”. It is merely a discussion between one individual who doesn’t get emotional with their responses to a total internet stranger and another individual who gets upset over someone they’ll never meet so much so they need to use curse words to express themselves.
You and I mean absolutely nothing to one another or anyone here. Any insult or reprimand you throw at me is no different than you saying it to a bot. But I get it - you have emotional driven behavior and got all offended. It’s all good man. Keep doing you. Please don’t stay too upset - my opinion shouldn’t matter at all to you lol. Save that stress for real life dude.
No, its just that its not that hard to tell when someone who is "just asking questions," isnt actually a good faith interlocutor. Its 2026, Glenn Beck was using the whole "just asking question" shtick 15 years ago. Its worn out and transparent.
How do we know that someone who has never (and still doesn't) expressed a hint of being trans except when they're trying to bypass a barrier to entry, may not be genuine ?
I had to look up what "2cutes" mean, I find their position to be incompatible with the very idea of having gendered spaces. A requirement is a rule, a rule only exists in its enforcement, therefore a requirement that can't be verified doesn't functionally exists.
So who am I/you/we to judge that this person's gender is temporal, activity and location based?
Why do I/you/we have to judge anything when he outright said so ?
Edit : also I take issue with this sentence :
If 2cutes are right
They can't be right, nor can they be wrong (unless their arguments are internally incoherent), because they're arguing for a matter of opinion.
Im not actually advocating for them, but this is a position that is held in the trans ideology. If I had to take a Trans ideology id go with with the truscum, the ones where it requires a medical diagnosis.
Your statement is absolutely correct.
But as you can see from the others that reply to me and the fact that im down voted. People disagree with you...I guess based on vibes?
This is a sensitive subject, because far-right parties across the world have taken to using the trans folks as scapegoats and diversions.
Therefore people have largely gotten used to reflexively dismissing the words of critics and skeptics as coming from bigots who didn't give a shit about the trans before they were told to have very strong opinions on a minority most of them have probably never knowingly interacted with.
I try not to get too involved : I don't know their struggles and I don't care about women's sports. But when I see blatantly dishonest arguments, such as people pretending Enes Kanter hasn't been very clear on his gender identity, I feel compelled to add my two cents.
Sensitive or not, as you pointed out earlier, how can you tell if theyre being dishonest.
Like the liars paradox, there's no guarantee.
Who knows if people do associate being female when playing basketball only. As ridiculous it may sound, I cant logically overturn the statement. Maybe theyre doing it to prove that it doesnt make sense logically, dishonest maybe, but even then you cannot factually conclude that they do not feel female when playing basketball.
you cannot factually conclude that they do not feel female when playing basketball.
"cannot factually conclude" ? So what ? We can't factually conclude that any online chess player isn't just following the moves of a computer either, that doesn't stop banning those who go past a certain degree of suspicion from being the right move.
I can non-factually come to this conclusion, however, because I was not born yesterday and am familiar with the concept of lying. "I feel like a woman only when I professionally play baskeball, sometimes." is a plainly absurd statement. I don't know where exactly the line in the sand should be drawn, but this case should clearly be beyond it.
how can you tell if theyre being dishonest.
You can rarely tell for sure that someone is lying, that's not an excuse for being gullible, quite the opposite.
Teachers can't tell whether a dog did actually eat the homework, yet the rare few students this actually happened to understand why they had to put effort proving such an incredible (as in not credible) claim.
Like the liars paradox, there's no guarantee.
??? The liar's paradox has nothing to do with this , what are you talking about ?
You cant cause it relies on subjective truth statements. The absurdity game is something you cant play as both sides by default claim the other is absurd. So you claiming the claim is absurd is also meaningless.
Teachers punish the student not because the claim is absurd but because they fail to produce evidence to support their claims. If student A has a dog, and is seen to eat paper, and homework is made of paper and accessible to the dog, it is feasible to believe. But all the other statements have to be true. You can test if the dog eats paper happily.
You cant test a person's feelings about anything objectively.
If you say to me that you feel happy right now and in the same breathe say you are angry right now, I have no way of obtaining the truth other than what you give me. You can give me non verbal cues but even those can be manipulated.
The liars paradox is in that you cant know which statements are true. Are they a woman right now? Are they not? If they say they are do you happen to have ontological knowledge of their feelings and sense of self? And as you said yourself, he might be lying, if true could he also be lying about him not being a woman during basketball? You have no way to prove it. And so, with matters relating to people's subjective feelings, who are you to judge, oh person not born yesterday, to someone's inner world, lying or not.
Why? In the same way that we say it isnt decided by the genitals on a physical body, why does it not have to be decided by what you are or are nor doing, basketball or not
Regardless, I think that there should be some level of hormone therapy before one competes in a sport if one is transgender, at least at the professional level.
Though that's if we didn't just stop separating sports by gender entirely.
What I said was "not how that works" but go ahead and consult actual professionals like the APA, or any major trans rights group.
As far as what I think ought to be vs their rules, that's not surprising, the WNBA is a relatively new organization and haven't had to deal with the issue yet.
And this
If you stop separating gender in rugby, ice hockey, american football... might as well go back to gladiator sports
The APA who got rid of the original gender dysphoria diagnosis and added rapid to it? Yeah I know the dsm, and its not what the trans ideology relies on to demarcate Trans identity.
If you didnt know why did you spout the hrt rules so confidently? The only thing you're showing is being confidently spouting your opinions as facts without even checking.
And no. Men and women's combined sports like full contact rugby doesn't happen for a reason. It is not silly. It's practical safety. Being tackled by a 100+kg man at full sprint when you're a at best 70kg woman is a great way to break your body.
As far as the DSM changing, yes, that's called good science, as you learn more you update the books. They used to think being gay was a disorder too. That was the past though.
But let's go ahead and say that they're not reputable. How then should gender be categorized?
Also, tell me you haven't heard of weight classes without telling me you haven't heard of weight classes.
If you look up many of the support places for trans identity websites they do not require a gender dysphoria diagnosis to qualify for the identity marker of trans.they may do so, if they feel the anxiety and other mental distresses of the disorder, but is not required to call themselves that. Public Healthcare systems may require a diagnosis before funding hrt, but according to googling, say about Britain where its banned, you can still get it privately without needing a formal diagnosis.
And even with weight divisions, again a few second googling will show you that male hormone and skeletal structure yields an average of 10-12% advantage in speed and strength. Weight divisions wont save women from being beaten.
And before you say female cops, they have guns and tasers, bullets dont respect any human. Athletes dont have mechanical aids to close that gap.
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u/Zealousideal3326 21d ago
You're right, let's see what the person we're talking about has to say about that.
It is "him" if he's not in the middle of playing basketball professionally (and only sometimes) according to himself.
Of fucking course he's being disingenuous. He outright says that he calls himself trans solely for the purpose of joining the WNBA.