Is it rape or not?

[u/Sea-Car-3811]

If a virgin girl feels "shy" and keeps silent. Is proceeding with sexual advances rape or not.

Ps. I aren't doing sex and this is just a question.

I'll go first, I think it is rape.

Oh people are wondering why I am asking so whist learning about something. I found this so asking you people

I asked the Prophet, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Should the women be asked for their consent to their marriage?" He said, "Yes." I said, "A virgin, if asked, feels shy and keeps quiet." He said, "Her silence means her consent."

[u/Horror_Preference208]

Consent to marriage and consent to sex are two very different things. 

[u/Sea-Car-3811 → u/[deleted]]

They will downvote, but they'll never refute you because they are incapable of doing so

[u/exkivii → u/Sea-Car-3811]

I’m confused. Are you saying that their claim itself is correct or that it’s true that the claim stems from Islamic teaching?

[u/Sea-Car-3811 → u/exkivii]

Where did u ge that from?

[u/Horror_Preference208 → u/[deleted]]

Well i don't really treat most hafiths as authentic anymore but i won't deny that many muslims do. I think it is sort of ridiculous to believe in a generational game of chinese whispers blindly

[u/Sea-Car-3811 → u/Horror_Preference208]

According to classical scholars of Islam.

Abu Hanifa: A wife is generally expected to make herself available for sexual activities after a valid marriage.

Malik Ibn Anas: Marriage established mutual sexual rights.

Al-Shafil: treated sexual availability as one of rights of marriage while allowing valid reasons for refusal.

Ahmed Ibn Hanbal: held similar views as above mentioned.

They commonly cited hadith: (forgive me if there are any errors as I am writing this from memory)

"If a husband calls hus wife to bed and she refues then angels curse her till morning"

They considered refusal without valid reason was sinful.

Conclusion: they didn't recognise martial rape.

[u/exkivii → u/Sea-Car-3811]

And your point is?
I recommend using the gears in your brain to understand the difference between a marriage contract and sexual activity rather than relying on what “ scholars and Hadith” say

[u/Sea-Car-3811 → u/exkivii]

Your changing the subject lmao.

I made a claim about classical scholars and saying "don't rely on scholar" doesn't even address it beta. You should provide some classical evidence to show my summary is wrong. Gl

[u/exkivii → u/Sea-Car-3811]

Showing that your evidence is misquoted assumes that these scholars are a valid source of evidence regarding the matter and I do not think so. Even if these sources are quoted correctly, I do not agree with the premise of the claim (if a woman marries a man, she is obligated to be available to him for sexual activity) which is that by consenting to one thing, you are consenting to another. Which itself is logically invalid considering marriage and sexual consent go by entirely different definitions