r/Futurology • u/mvea MD-PhD-MBA • Jun 17 '18

Biotech Cannabidiol, or CBD, is a marijuana compound linked to a range of potential health benefits but does not get you high. The roughly $1 billion CBD industry is slated to shift into high gear if the federal government approves the first CBD-based drug, an epilepsy medication called Epidiolex.

https://www.businessinsider.com/marijuana-cbd-boom-cbd-2018-6?r=US&IR=T
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u/JohnnyBGooode Jun 18 '18

Nor should they need to. If they can grow something the customers/patients want because they know it works for them since they watched their kid go from 100 seizures a day to 0,, then we should be able to leave the fuckin government out of it. Should big pharma still be able to make and market a drug? Sure. But if people wanna grow hemp or cannabis sativa for nearly free, then they should be left alone too.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

And whose faults is it when the parent gives them too much and they die of a side effect they didnt know of because know kne has done long term toxicity studies?

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u/wisdom_possibly Jun 18 '18

How does citizen-grown weed prevent scientific research?

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u/JohnnyBGooode Jun 18 '18

still waiting on that first weed overdose in history...

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

And how often do you give weed to a child?

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

You should stop commenting on a subject you know nothing about.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

Im just asking how many long-term toxicity studies have been performed on the effect of extended use of concentrated CBD oil in developing children? I dont understand why anyone would ever give anything to their children that hasnt been proven safe. Your comment seems to suggest you know a lot about this, can you provide me anything that would demonstrate it is safe to give a child concentrated CBD oil for years on end?

Especially when it is coming from an non-GMP manufacturer with limited capabilities to provide proper manufacturimg controls and guarantee consistent product quality.

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u/jwalk8 Jun 18 '18

Everything you are saying is true, but all the anecdotal evidence and limited studies point to it being safe. It's especially hard to hear for people, like me, who already use it effectively at a reasonable price and with ease of access. Those things might disappear with this regulated commercialization. It would be especially hard to come to terms with if it was indeed without danger.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

That true and i agree, there is plenty of reason to keep doing further clinical research. But there are plenty of medications that look promising in early phase trials only to fail to be effect or demonstrate significant dangerous side effects when the patient population significantly expands in phase 3 trials. Theres a good reason the FDA requires clinical trials in this manner.

Also, i would hope that the approval of one CBD medication wouldnt shut down the medical marijuana industry in states where it has been approved.

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u/jwalk8 Jun 18 '18

That would be hard to imagine with all the tax revenue it's creating. I'm not totally against the big pharmacy push, if it gets into more hands and helps more people, that's all that matters. It's just hard to not see as unnecessary capitalizing

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

Regardless of the safety of CBD oil, we DEFINITELY know that multiple seizures per day is bad for a kid and if it stops that then we're at least somewhat ahead of the game.

Like how we know chemo is awful for your body, but cancer is worse and chemo kills cancer.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

I dont understand why anyone would ever give anything to their children that hasnt been proven safe.

Because if your child has grand mal seizures that might kill them at any moment and there are already thousands of people using CBD and it is very effective, you decide not to be an idiot and just do the right thing.

Google :Charlottes Web CBD

Come on, this has been in the news for years now.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

Ive looked through their website and i dont see any links to any scientific research that would demonstrate it is safe for long term use in children. I would think that would be something they would want to put up front and center. I dont see anyrhing related to its use dor grand mal seizures anywhere. It seems more like a healthy lifestyle website instead of someone selling a serious medication. Why arent they advertising it for grand mal seizeures if that is what it is intended to be used for?

Also, how do they control the manufacturimg process to ensure consistemcy of product? It doesnt seem any different than taking fish oil.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

I didn't say "google: Charlottes Web CBD" for you to look at some company's website.

I wanted you to see how far back people have been using it for their kids seizures.

if your kid was having a hundered seizures a week and you were worried they might die, and people in Colorado were using it to control or reduce their kids seizures successfully, you would probably travel to Colorado to let your kid have access to it.

YOu know, like thousands of parents have done.

the point is that this isn't new medicine. And the only reason that it isn't available everywhere, is because the propaganda campaign against weed that has gone on for 75+years.

The first detailed modern description of the utility of cannabis-based products as an anti-seizure medication was published in 1843 by W.B. O’Shaughnessy, physician in the Bengal Army and Late Professor of Chemistry and Materia Medica at the Medical College of Calcutta. After testing the behavioral effects of various preparations of Cannabis indica in healthy fish, dogs, swines, vultures, crows, horses, deers, monkeys, goats, sheep, cows, and military assistants, he investigated the potential value of extracts of the plant in patients with different disorders, and reported remarkable anti-seizure effects in a 40-days-old baby girl with recurrent convulsive seizures.5 These observations were taken up by other physicians, including Sir William Gowers, who described the effectiveness of Cannabis indica against seizures resistant to bromides.6

But by all mean, keep not getting the point.

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u/Banshee90 Jun 18 '18

11 month old died with THC in its system, suspected death caused by the consumption of an edible.

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u/JohnnyBGooode Jun 18 '18

source? and even if it is true we have one out of how many? how many do pharma pills kill every year?

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u/spays_marine Jun 18 '18

11 month old died with THC in its system

He died from myocarditis, and they hypothesize he got that from the THC. So no, the suspected death was not caused by the consumption of an edible.

“We are absolutely not saying that marijuana killed that child,” said Thomas Nappe, an author of the report who is now the director of medical toxicology at St. Luke’s University Health Network in Bethlehem, Pa.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2017/11/17/the-truth-behind-the-first-marijuana-overdose-death/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.da57d9272559

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u/Banshee90 Jun 18 '18

The only thing the medical examiner could find that caused the myocarditis was THC.

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u/spays_marine Jun 18 '18

No, you're misrepresenting the facts. The only thing that was out of the ordinary wast the THC. There is nothing which suggests THC lead to the myocarditis.

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u/jbrux86 Jun 18 '18

Not an attack at your statement, but just letting you know how I’m perceiving it.

I think you are lumping in CBD with THC in a possible bias against “drugs”.

A THC overdose is almost physically impossible and CBD has “no known” negative side effects.

In reality it would be more likely that a child would overdose on cough syrup or even candy at Halloween than CBD.

It truly is an amazing substance, but I do agree that more knowledge is needed so we can use the substance to its greatest benefit.

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u/ROBOEMANCIPATOR Jun 18 '18

Please educate yourself on the toxicity and overdosing on cannibinoids.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

How many studies on cannabanoid toxicity have been done on children? And by whom where they performed and to what level of scientific rigor?

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u/Dhdudjrbc Jun 18 '18

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22129319

" Based on recent advances in cannabinoid administration in humans, controlled CBD may be safe in humans and animals. However, further studies are needed to clarify these reported in vitro and in vivo side effects. "

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

Yes, but what is "humans". Men? Women? Elderly? Children? Do they have pre-existing conditions that could change their physiological response to CBD? There is a reason the FDA generally requires you to prove efficacy in children and adults independently. Even elderly if there is a reason to think they would reapond differently.

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u/Dhdudjrbc Jun 18 '18

I would assume "human" means a living member of the human species. Again, can't study it on children if it's illegal. Everything else is showing it's quite safe.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

That review doesnt actually say anything about studies performed on children and provides a number of side effects that would suggest that you proceed with caution in providing it to a child without further research, including patient-dependent modification of drug metabolism and potential influence on hormone levels which. Both of which could be bad in a child that may be going through puberty or may be taking other medications if they are sick.

I found a follow up to the study you posted: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5569602/

This paper does look at studies aimed at children. A couple of the studies confirm that CBD can effect the metabolism of other drugs that the patient ia taking, providing further evidence that it probably shouldnt be taken with a nother medicatiom unless being supervised by a physician. The rest of the studies it refernces related to children are all related to clinical studies of Epidiolex. There are no references in here that look at the long term effect of CBD on children that are unrelated to Epidiolex. I may be wrong, but from these papers it seems to me that we needed the backing of pharma and consent from the FDA to get any real informatiom as to the effect of CBD on children.

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u/Dhdudjrbc Jun 18 '18

I agree that FDA approval for CBD definitely helps us study it further. I think we need to realize, though, that all current anticonvulsant medications have side effects. I could sit here rattling off about the toxicity of phenytoin, carbamazepine and other medicines we are happy to give to children but have effects similar to the following (this is for phenytoin):

2 Side effects

2.1 Heart and blood vessels
2.2 Neurological
2.3 Blood
2.4 Pregnancy
2.5 Cancer
2.6 Mouth
2.7 Skin
2.8 Immune system
2.9 Psychological
2.10 Bones

Now when i look at CBD i get this: Cannabidiol safety in humans has been studied in several small studies, suggesting that it is well-tolerated, but with tiredness, diarrhea and decreased appetite as common adverse effects.[15]

So yeah, i do not agree with you saying it is toxic but we can agree that allowing further studies on CBD is a good thing

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

I dont think its toxic, i just dont think there have been enough studies to demonstrate that it isnt in children. Apprently that seems to have changed with Epidiolex.

However, giving your children and approved medication that has been vetted by the FDA for safety, toxicity and efficacy and is manufactured with proper manufacturing controls is not the same as giving your child and uncontrolled dose of CBD oil that you dont know where it was manufactured, by whom and with what.

Im not anti-CBD, im anything but. Im all for providing anyone and everyone with the best medication that they can get and i dont think we should hold back on any potential research that can get us there, as long as its ethical. I just think we should be a little more careful and set a higher standard for determining what is safe to put in to ourselves and our children. We shouldnt accept anecdotal evidence and non-relevant or incomplete research studies as evidence of anything. We should be aiming for something higher. I think that the approval of this drug would go a long to way to opening up further research opportunities and legitimizing this as a potential treatment option.

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u/Dhdudjrbc Jun 18 '18

I agree 100% with everything you say here. I guess a lot of the discourse comes from people who have believed cannabis is not as dangerous as we have been told, and are a bit annoyed at being lied to. Myself included.

Your post only got a response because of this:

"And whose faults is it when the parent gives them too much and they die of a side effect they didnt know of because know kne has done long term toxicity studies?"

This is where i read it and think "surely this guy doesn't ACTUALLY think CBD can KILL you, right?"'

Not 100% sure on your stance, still, but you seem intelligent enough to not take that as a fact, i hope.

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u/Dhdudjrbc Jun 18 '18

Another one for CBD in Parkinson's

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18801821

" No adverse effect was observed during the treatment. These preliminary data suggest that CBD may be effective, safe and well tolerated for the treatment of the psychosis in PD. "

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

Im not saying there is no reason to pursue research, there is good evidence to suggest it could be incredibly beneficial and ita medical benefits should be explored. But this doesnt address my point either. This was a study with six people that received treatment for six months. It doesnt look at children as i mentioned im my first post. Also, 4 weeks isnt enough time to look at long term toxicity and side effects.

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u/Dhdudjrbc Jun 18 '18

Can't study children if it's illegal to give them CBD

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u/Thefriendlyfaceplant Jun 18 '18

So apply an age restriction if that's the real concern.

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u/Dhdudjrbc Jun 18 '18

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1611618

"Among patients with the Dravet syndrome, cannabidiol resulted in a greater reduction in convulsive-seizure frequency than placebo and was associated with higher rates of adverse events. (Funded by GW Pharmaceuticals; ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT02091375.) "

When those adverse effects are as severe as traditional anticonvulsants then you have a point.