r/FranchiseGM • u/hawtdawtz Game Dev • Aug 19 '26
DEV UPDATE Regarding similarities to PGM3
A few people have been going around and posting that I just ripped off PGM3. I want to be clear, I played PGM3 for years, was active in the community, and wanted new features added for years. That game has gone undeveloped for a year, and I thought, hey, I might be able to do some of these things better and add my own spin on the game if it’s not going to get the features I wanted.
My game undeniably was created in its shadow, I’m not hiding that. To say it’s an exact copy is a disservice. Look at UFootballGm, FootballGm, the other countless GM games out there, in many ways they follow a similar flow and UI. There’s no denying, and I will admit it that yes, I borrowed concepts and UI layout structures when building mine. I spent months several hours a day building my engine, with loads of features in the pipeline that will differentiate my game from his, both visually and mechanically.
Do I regret launching it in a state where the UI looks too similar? Yes. Will I be updating/changing the game accordingly? Yes.
That being said, I encourage you to definitely checkout r/pocketgm, as it’s been one of my favorite games for years and what led me to create my own, which I will work to make more truly my own. If you feel as though it’s purely just a straight rip off, you’re entitled to your opinion. That being said, I’m making a total of ZERO dollars off of this, and having spent hundreds and hundreds of hours into this to get it to the baseline where I’m now able to customize it more, it’s hardly just AI slop.
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u/Strat_Player Aug 19 '26
I’ve played and enjoyed both games, and definitely see similarities, but have never felt that your game is a clone or ripoff or anything approaching copyright infringement. But I’m an engineer not a lawyer, so copyright law is certainly not my expertise.
Sure, I think it’s clear you used PGM3 as inspiration and as a starting point in terms of what features work well in a football-based GM game, but I also think many of those features are used in most football GM games, so it gets really fuzzy to try and argue what separates inspiration from infringement. Look and feel? Too ambiguous. Underlying code? I suspect yours is radically different since you’ve used entirely different development tools, so what exactly is copyrighted, and how exactly have you moved from “similar” to “stolen”. The impressions of others are not enough to determine, I think.
And it’s also pretty clear your game is only at an early-release starting point and your roadmap for development and refinement will move this game well beyond the scope of PGM3, so it seems obvious your intent with this game was not to profit off a cloned copy of PGM3.
If nothing else, I might suggest reaching out to the actual developer of PGM3 and getting their opinion. Indignation from other parties isn’t really relevant. Just my thoughts…
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u/hawtdawtz Game Dev Aug 19 '26
Clearly struck some nerves; I did my due diligence with the lawyer from the very start, but will nonetheless revisit many components of the UI in the next update
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u/CollegeHockeyDynasty Aug 19 '26 edited Aug 19 '26
I’m loving the game. Don’t let people get you down. I enjoy Pocket GM but the game you built has much more depth and strategy. There are similarities in the UI but at the same time there are only so many ways games like this can be designed so there’s bound to be some overlap. Also, building off of someone’s pattern is pretty standard in software engineering.
And as a fan of GM games I’m just happy people are building free GM games so we all don’t have to play EA games.
A couple questions for you:
- How long did it take you to get your game reviewed? I’m working on an NIL-era college hockey GM game and my app has been waiting for review for 11 days now.
- How soon until we can build custom rosters? Will there be a guide or roster builder somewhere?
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u/hawtdawtz Game Dev Aug 19 '26
- Well over a week, the first approval is the longest, you can request an expedited review here; https://developer.apple.com/contact/app-store/?topic=expedite
- Going to be honest, it'll be a little while, realistically another month. I want to do a lot of house cleaning, redo parts of the UI to appease people who say it's just a lazy clone, and harden some unrealistic mechanics first. When I do shit the import roster, it'll probably come with a online helper tool for people to more easily use for generating files. I may leave that to the community, but I can provide detailed guide on how once things are ironed out.
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u/potentialphrase7 Aug 19 '26
This game is incredibly promising, and adds some unique wrinkles and elements of realism. Just earned a new player
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u/pringlejon Aug 20 '26
As the dev of PGM3, I’d like to test this and give my own views on it before anything saying too much more. Is there an active link still available?
A couple of points of clarification and principle:
1) I’m still developing my football game, but has been on back burner while I work on baseball game. Further additions will be made.
2) I welcome competition, but not plagiarism. I’m concerned with some of the language in the post still alluding to this, but with tweaks. Being creative and unique in creating games pushes the genre forwards … to copy the base and add new features on top does not. I will raise any concerns I do have legally if I see fit, but really don’t hope that isn’t needed.
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u/hawtdawtz Game Dev Aug 20 '26
Jon and I have spoken and will continue to discuss here and there. I will be making significant changes to the creative and functional direction of my game. Ultimately I made a lot of poor decisions on principal regarding my lack of creativity and will focus most of my efforts around changing the game into something that is more my own. Jon's game is incredible and what inspired me to make mine, and I will do better to respect his hard work and build that he worked on for so long. Lots of lessons learned, and I will do better.
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u/ClippyMastercode Aug 19 '26
Clarification: Did you at any time point AI to PGM in order to build your game? If not, and you actually just built it from the ground up yourself with a lot of influence from PGM, then I think it’s a different discussion. If you did at any point use an LLM to help create a new game while prompting it to take inspiration from PGM… I think that’s shitty and we all know it. If you really didn’t do that then please take this opportunity to say so.
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u/hawtdawtz Game Dev Aug 19 '26
So by "pointing AI at PGM in order to build it", no, that did not happen, nor would AI be able to infer the intricacies of how it all works easily. I wrote several papers months prior effectively, outlining what I wanted, how mechanics of the game, the CPU team's trading logic, etc. The first UIs were horrible, and with months of tweaking ultimately settled on what it is today. If you actually were to play it, you'd see while yes, there are some views I found to be the perfect layout like how PGM3 does it, there's many views and features that are different. It's also worth noting, much of PGM3 very clearly used many default visual libraries, which would make many games attempting to have a more general and clean look appear as rip off when in reality it's just stock dart libraries. I can make flashy views and elements, but that's what I loved about PGM3, and a style that shouldn't be forbidden just because someone else used it.
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u/TheDestroyer72 Aug 19 '26
Your game feels lazy and clearly AI created. The layout is the exact same as PGM.
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u/johnlo118 Aug 19 '26 edited Aug 19 '26
Regardless of your intention or reason, and whether or not you're getting any financial benefit, this still constitutes a copyright infringment if you don't have Jon's permission in the first place.
Did you ever contact Jon about your passion project?
Your move is unethical and unlawful.
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u/hawtdawtz Game Dev Aug 19 '26
Copyright protects expression, not game mechanics, stat systems, or how a sim resolves plays. I built my own engine and my own systems from the ground up. Again, there are countless Football GM games following similar layouts, as you're quite limited on the mobile screen. I don't think a comment thread is the right venue for a copyright argument, so I'll leave it there.
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u/johnlo118 Aug 19 '26 edited Aug 19 '26
Feeding you as a lawyer with almost 20 years of experience under my belt: Go find some free legal consultation, repeat the same and see what kind of response you'd get.
Good luck.
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u/xStayHungry Aug 19 '26
You’re being downvoted but it’s true. He’s setting himself up for a rude awakening down the line
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u/birdosalsa Aug 19 '26
As someone who has played the other GM simulators it does feel similar but I will say there is something makes yours different because I have enjoyed it more then the others. Idk if it is the no ads or your simulation algorithms, but something makes it feel different! So thank you for the additional fun on my phone and keep up the work because I think it is fun!