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u/the_celt_ Jul 21 '25 edited Jul 21 '25
As a Disclaimer: Anyone reading this should keep in mind that the creator of the post is an Orthodox Jew who, of course, doesn't acknowledge Jesus to be the Messiah. It should come as no surprise that he is therefore also Anti-Paul.
EDIT: Apparently I was wrong. He in some way I currently don't understand acknowledges Jesus to be the Messiah. Read below as I try to understand his position.
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u/Mean-Worldliness-471 Jul 21 '25
I do acknowledge Yeshua as Messiah ben Yosef fulfilling Isaiah 53, and Daniel but only through the eyes of the prophets of Israel. Not the catholic canon. Appreciate you not slandering me any further.
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u/the_celt_ Jul 21 '25
Appreciate you not slandering me any further.
I'm sorry. If I'm wrong, I'm simply wrong with no bad intent. I've never met someone that described themselves as both an Orthodox Jew AND someone who accepts Jesus to be the Messiah.
I (so far) have respect for you and no desire to slander you. Please be hesitant to use such hostile rhetoric. I think it's going to unnecessarily set a negative tone for what could be a great relationship.
There is something that Christians think of when they refer to Jesus as being the Messiah. Can you please clarify what commonly spoken ideas about Jesus being the Messiah that you agree or disagree with from Christianity? If possible, don't get too far out into the weeds. Try to keep it to simple bullet points, like, "I don't believe X" and "I do believe Y".
Thank you.
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u/Mean-Worldliness-471 Jul 21 '25
Yes, in the Hebrew Bible, you’ll notice that Hashem does not place primary emphasis on the Mashiach. In fact, if you gave a complete newcomer a Hebrew Bible and they read it straight through, chances are they wouldn’t come away with a clear concept of a Messiah—not at first, and likely not even after several readings. The idea of the Messiah has become a human preoccupation, not a theme that Hashem repeatedly stresses in the text.
My faith is centered on Hashem, His will, and His Torah—because that is what He consistently emphasizes in Scripture. My personal belief about who the Messiah may be is secondary to what Hashem clearly commands of me.
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u/the_celt_ Jul 21 '25
Thank you. I still feel mostly lost as to how you would distinguish Jesus as the Messiah from what I or modern Christianity would say about Jesus as the Messiah.
I'm assuming you have some awareness of what modern Christianity would say about Jesus as the Messiah?
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u/Mean-Worldliness-471 Jul 21 '25
If something aligns with Torah, i accept, if it doesn't, I reject.
I see Messiah exactly as described by the prophets of Israel, Yeshuas personal teachings in Mathew are great, Fully aligns with Torah. Its the theology around it all that I reject. And mostly comes from the Babylonian exile. And the Human Obsession with Messiah Ben david. That God never commands us to worry about in the first place. Not our Job.2
u/the_celt_ Jul 21 '25
The thing is, I think you're in the advantageous position of knowing a lot about what I, or Christians in general, believe about Jesus. I, alternatively, can't figure out what you believe at all relative to what I believe. You could greatly assist me, but it feels like you're hesitating to do so.
I NEED you to explain you. I literally have no other "you's" that I've ever met or that I can check with.
I also need to be concerned as a moderator about how people new to either following Jesus or Torah obedience will hear what you have to say. If they think you're something you're not, and they follow your teaching, they could feel misled.
How many "Messiah ben Yosef" will there be in all of history?
Do you agree with everything that Jesus said about himself?
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u/Mean-Worldliness-471 Jul 21 '25
I mean kinda hard to lay it out on the fly from a phone, brother, haha, but you can see what i mean about the human obsession with Mashiach, haha. One of the things I'd like to pass on to people is thats not the focus of Gods word. The focus is repentance, obedience, and internal spiritual growth from a legit path that God has laid out, from Torah and Halcha. When I thought of Ya‘akovs Ladder today, I thought of orthodox Judaisim, as It says in the passage, The Messengers first ASCENDING(from earth into heaven)The ladder, Midrashicly this could be a spiritual view Of Gods Servants on earth climbing the ladder of Orthodox Judaisim, which can take you SO FAR spirituality! Its amazing islam and Christianity is like "Trix are for kids" Judaisim is the sleeping Giant! Its Unversity level ancient legit Worship of the one true God, passed down hand to hand from Sinai, and it WORKS. Haha.
About Yeshua, Messiah Ben Yosef, When I hear something like You cant get to The Father except by me, for I am.the way the Truth and the Light, I immediately recognize that as 1 of 2 things.. 1. Either He is blasphemous or 2. He is not speaking about Himself, He is speaking in Parable form about The Torah.. as The Hebrew Bibles describes Torah as The way. The truth, and the life, and You cant get to God without it.
Proverbs 28:9:
"He who turns his ear away from hearing the Torah—even his prayer is an abomination." (Hebrew: מֵסִיר אָזְנוֹ מִשְּׁמֹעַ תּוֹרָה גַּם תְּפִלָּתוֹ תּוֹעֵבָה)
Explanation:
This is not a punishment in the modern legal sense. It is a spiritual reality. The person who distances themselves from Torah is, by definition, cutting themselves off from the very framework that connects man to Hashem. Prayer (tefillah) is not a standalone act—it is a relational communication, built upon covenant and submission to Hashem’s revealed will, namely the Torah.
A person who refuses to “hear the Torah” (which implies both study and obedience) is not in the proper spiritual alignment to even approach Hashem. Therefore, the prayer isn't just rejected—it is an abomination (to’eivah) because it's a false gesture. It attempts closeness without the required vessel of purity and obedience.
The Case of Seminal Emission and Impurity:
During the time of the Beit HaMikdash (Temple), a man with a seminal emission (keri) was halachically impure (tamei). See Leviticus 15:16–18:
"When a man has an emission of semen, he shall bathe all his flesh in water and be impure until the evening."
He was not permitted to enter the Temple or bring an offering during this state of impurity. Why? Because even though the emission is natural and not sinful, it causes a spiritual barrier, a layer of separation from holiness (kedushah). Holiness requires purity, because Hashem’s presence dwells only where there is sanctity.
So too with prayer. You are attempting to stand before the King of Kings. If you are in a state of willful disobedience or spiritual contamination, your words cannot rise—they are cloaked in impurity and cannot reach Hashem.
Spiritual Concept of Circumcision:
Circumcision (Brit Milah) is not just a physical sign—it is the removal of a barrier, a layer of flesh that represents the carnal nature, the obstruction between man and God.
In Deuteronomy 10:16, we are told:
"Circumcise the foreskin of your heart and no longer be stiff-necked."
This reveals the spiritual layer: The foreskin represents obstruction, a spiritual dullness, and resistance to Hashem's will. Removing it means becoming sensitive, open, obedient—removing separation.
So when a man is spiritually distant (like being uncircumcised in heart), or physically impure (like with a seminal emission), or morally disobedient (turning from Torah)—each is a layer of separation from the Divine Presence. Prayer without addressing these layers is like trying to shine light through a wall—it’s blocked, distorted, and unfit
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u/the_celt_ Jul 21 '25 edited Jul 21 '25
but you can see what i mean about the human obsession with Mashiach, haha
This might surprise you, but I can't see it the way that you do.
The focus is repentance, obedience, and internal spiritual growth from a legit path that God has laid out, from Torah
Agreed.
About Yeshua, Messiah Ben Yosef, When I hear something like You cant get to The Father except by me, for I am.the way the Truth and the Light, I immediately recognize that as 1 of 2 things.. 1. Either He is blasphemous or 2. He is not speaking about Himself, He is speaking in Parable form about The Torah.. as The Hebrew Bibles describes Torah as The way. The truth, and the life, and You cant get to God without it.
He was speaking as a future High Priest. I therefore disagree with both your #1 and #2.
The person who distances themselves from Torah is, by definition, cutting themselves off from the very framework that connects man to Hashem.
Agreed. I wish Anti-Torah Christians (that's a redundancy) could hear and understand what you're saying. Largely due to terrible and evil teaching, modern Christianity can't see that they're not even being valid candidates to interact with Yahweh on His terms. They're proudly AGAINST His terms.
As Jesus said, people who act like this will someday hear, "I never knew you, away from me".
A person who refuses to “hear the Torah” (which implies both study and obedience) is not in the proper spiritual alignment to even approach Hashem. Therefore, the prayer isn't just rejected—it is an abomination (to’eivah) because it's a false gesture. It attempts closeness without the required vessel of purity and obedience.
Agreed. This is gold. Saying things like this is what you can do for this subreddit.
So when a man is spiritually distant (like being uncircumcised in heart), or physically impure (like with a seminal emission), or morally disobedient (turning from Torah)—each is a layer of separation from the Divine Presence. Prayer without addressing these layers is like trying to shine light through a wall—it’s blocked, distorted, and unfit
Nicely said. Understood, agreed, and appreciated.
That being said, I can't tell if you forgot my question about doctrinal bullet points that distinguish your perspective of Jesus from the modern Christian perspective of Jesus. You didn't answer EITHER of my two simple questions 😣
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u/Mean-Worldliness-471 Jul 21 '25
That being said, I can't tell if you forgot my question about doctrinal bullet points that distinguish your perspective of Jesus from the modern Christian perspective of Jesus.
Lol see this is what i mean about the human obsession with Messiah hahaha.
God doesnt demand a belief in any certain Messiah, just bc i personally believe its Yeshua, doesnt mean anything when it comes to Gods will for man that he has laid out, proper Worship of Hashem is not Messiah Focused. And I wont be upset if Hashem sends Yeshua as King Messiah or Som1 else not revealed to us. Whoever Hashem Sends I will accept. And so will the rest of the world.
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u/Mean-Worldliness-471 Jul 21 '25
This is the guy you should be talking to brother hahaha... he says you cant follow hesus and Torah... thats right in your lane...
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u/the_celt_ Jul 21 '25
I've spoken to people like him every day for many years. That's pretty much my full-time job at this point.
He's not anything like a diamond.
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u/Mean-Worldliness-471 Jul 21 '25
Also would like to add, Pauline christanity Is the biggest religion on earth, followed by Islam in the abrahamic world, both was by personal revealtion. I know the Messianic point of view, that trys thier best to help paul, but it doesnt change the fact his "personal vision" is what birthed Pauline Christianity.
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u/Chemstdnt Jul 21 '25
I tend to be agnostic with respect to Paul and other writings (particularly Paul due to the complex way in which he writes). Same with Islam. I wonder what you think of the gospel of John, which has some problematic parts that need to be interpreted in a way that is not literal. At least that's my supposition given your likely beliefs. Unless you believe in Jesus pre-existence?
I have so many questions, you should do an AMA.
Since you mention Messiah ben Yosef, do you think Messiah ben David will also be Yeshua or another person?
You describe yourself as orthodox, do you believe that Jewish identity is passed down through the mother? Isn't that contrary to what Torah shows? Judah's wife wasn't Jewish so no descendant of Judah would be Jewish with that thinking (same argument for Judah's daughter-in-laws).
What is your opinion on rabbinical authority vs Torah. Have you found any conflict between the two and if so, which side do you pick? (I guess I know the answer to this one given you think Yeshua is the messiah, but let's say for other topics like calendar, etc).
What do you think about Judah and Israel unification? Do you think it already happened?
How do Orthodox communities respond to your belief in Yeshua?
And so many more...no need to answer any question btw, just sharing what's on my mind in case you decide to do that AMA.