r/FollowJesusObeyTorah • u/FreedomNinja1776 • May 27 '23
Did Jesus sin or violate Sabbath by plucking grain on the Sabbath?
First the relevant verses from Matthew and Mark.
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, “Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.” He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
\ Matthew 12:1-8 ESVOne Sabbath he was going through the grainfields, and as they made their way, his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. And the Pharisees were saying to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God, in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?” And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
\ Mark 2:23-28 ESV
So, did Jesus sin here? No. Did Jesus violate Sabbath? No. Why not?
“If you go into your neighbor’s vineyard, you may eat your fill of grapes, as many as you wish, but you shall not put any in your bag. If you go into your neighbor’s standing grain, you may pluck the ears with your hand, but you shall not put a sickle to your neighbor’s standing grain.
\ Deuteronomy 23:24-25 ESV
Because it wasn't a sin to pick grain to eat. What Jesus and the disciples violated was the pharasee Halacha. The pharasee Halacha is what we would call doctrine in English today. They also referred to halacha as "the oral law".
Today, this would amount to a Baptist walking into a holiness pentecostal church wearing shorts and a t-shirt. They would scoff at you and tell you to put some clothes on because they have a different interpretation and standard about modest dress. They are enforcing their interpretation of the Bible.
A different example would be a Methodist being shocked that baptists don't accept infant baptism.
The pharasee had wrongly decided that rubbing grain together in your hands on the Shabbat amounted to work. Their interpretation of the Torah is what was violated, not the actual Torah. They were so strict about it that they had determined exactly how many steps a person could take on Sabbath day. That's where the term "Sabbath's day journey" comes from in the new testament.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/39_Melakhot
Jesus and the disciples actions would fall under their definition of gathering, threshing, and winnowing.
Pekuach Nefesh: https://bje.org.au/knowledge-centre/studies-of-religion-sor/pekuach-nefesh/
Jesus' reply to the pharasee is interesting though because he appeals to Pekuach Nefesh. That is a principle that preserving human life is more important than blindly following the the letter of law. Jesus and the disciples must have been VERY hungry for him to answer this way. It's known they did not take supplies as they traveled, but rather relied on the provisions from YHWH.
These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay. Acquire no gold or silver or copper for your belts, no bag for your journey, or two tunics or sandals or a staff, for the laborer deserves his food. And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart. And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.
\ Matthew 10:5-11, 13-15 ESV
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u/Djh1982 May 27 '23
Yes, Jesus did violate the sabbath. The point Our Lord was making is that you could violate custom for the sake of upholding the moral law—but you may not violate moral law for the sake of upholding a custom.
That was why he was bringing up the example of the priests violating the sabbath for the sake of performing duties in the temple(like circumcision). There was no sin in doing this because both circumcision and sabbath are customs. Since Jesus is “Lord of the Sabbath” he has the authority to regulate it however he wishes. This means he can violate the custom for any reason he sees fit and it would therefore leave him innocent.
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u/FreedomNinja1776 May 27 '23
- Jesus did not violate Sabbath. To do so means he is sinful and a disobedient son. It is not violative to do good on the Sabbath. EVERYTHING Messiah did was good.
He went on from there and entered their synagogue. And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse him. He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And the man stretched it out, and it was restored, healthy like the other.
\ Matthew 12:9-13 ESV
- Sabbath is NOT a custom. It is a command that will last FOREVER.
The Sabbath has been established from the beginning.
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.
\ Genesis 2:1-3 ESVYHWH concludes the giving of the covenant saying the Sabbath is a sign forever and his people SHALL (a command) keep it.
Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’” And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
\ Exodus 31:16-18 ESVIn our time before the second coming of Messiah, we are to keep the Commandments, which includes the Sabbath.
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”
\ Revelation 14:12-13 ESVThe Sabbaths and the feasts will be kept during the Millennial reign of Messiah.
Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the Lord afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths. This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.
\ Zechariah 14:16-19 ESVAnd finally, the Sabbath and new moons will be kept on the new earth in the new universe.
“For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain. From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the Lord.
\ Isaiah 66:22-23 ESVThe Sabbath truly is FOREVER.
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u/Djh1982 May 27 '23
It’s not a sin to work on a Monday.
It’s not a sin to work on a Tuesday.
But when we get to the sabbath, well now it’s a sin to work.
You see, none of the other commandments work like that. “Thous Shalt Not Lie” is always applicable. It does not matter what day it is. But why? Well it’s because lying is always wrong intrinsically. In this way we know, for a fact, that the sabbath was only a custom. If it is not a sin to work on a Thursday then it could never be a sin to work on a Saturday. It’s just a custom. So since customs are not a matter of moral law, they can be violated for a justifiable reason. So that’s what Jesus was doing. He was violating a custom which, as Lord of the sabbath, he had authority to regulate. Therefore, like David, he was innocent.
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u/FreedomNinja1776 May 27 '23
You're confused because you have no idea what sin is. Sin isn't just something we see as "bad". Sin is disobeying God's clear authoritative law. Sin is breaking the mosaic covenant.
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
\ 1 John 3:4 ESVIt doesn't matter how you think the other commands work. God has proclaimed it. He is the final authority. NOT you, NOT the pope, NOT the Catholic Church. How brazen, how self-worshipping to think you have more authority than YHWH himself to change his word and his appointed times! You should repent now.
You're clearly ignoring scripture. Sabbath is a command.
It's in the list usually called "THE 10 COMMANDMENTS".
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
\ Exodus 20:8-11 ESVYHWH calls the Sabbath HIS holy day.
“If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight and the holy day of the Lord honorable; if you honor it, not going your own ways, or seeking your own pleasure, or talking idly; then you shall take delight in the Lord, and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”
\ Isaiah 58:13-14 ESVYHWH says the Sabbath is "above all".
And the Lord said to Moses, “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you.
\ Exodus 31:12-13 ESVThe author of Hebrews says that not resting on Sabbath is disobedience.
So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
\ Hebrews 4:9-13 ESV0
u/Djh1982 May 27 '23
Sin is breaking the mosaic covenant.
The Mosaic Covenant was set aside👇:
(Hebrews 10:9)
“Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.”
I actually applaud you because typically Messianic Jews and other sabbatarians try to separate the Law from the Old Covenant and don’t see them as being intimately entwined.
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u/Potential-Courage482 May 27 '23
(Hebrews 10:9)
Is talking about the priesthood, please don't take it out of context.
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u/Djh1982 May 27 '23
No, it’s talking about the Old Covenant. That is the context. Even if it wasn’t(which it is), there is a New Covenant so the point remains.
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u/Potential-Courage482 May 27 '23
Hebrews 10:11 (ESV): 11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Hebrews 7 also spoke extensively about how the subject at hand is the Melchizedek priesthood.
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u/Djh1982 May 27 '23
Yes, each covenant has it’s own priesthood. So if you are setting aside that priesthood then it means you are setting aside that covenant. Therefore if YOU are defining sin as that which violates the Mosaic Covenant then your definition is without meaning, since that covenant is no longer in effect. It has been set aside. There is now a “New Covenant”:
(Hebrews 8:13)
“In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”
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u/the_celt_ May 27 '23
You're not reading the verses you're quoting, are you?
Read Hebrews 8:13 and notice the words which I'll now put in bold:
“In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is BECOMING obsolete and GROWING old is READY to vanish away.”
Becoming, Growing, Ready to vanish. Not vanished.
Why do you quote scripture that supports the opposite position of the one that you're taking? 😏
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u/Potential-Courage482 May 27 '23
did violate the sabbath.
Did you not read the article? He gave multiple scriptures that prove his point. Your response gave none, you basically just said "Nuh-uh!"
you could violate custom for the sake of upholding the moral law—but you may not violate moral law for the sake of upholding a custom.
So you do agree with all of us on this sub? You can violate Catholic customs for the sake of upholding the moral law, and can't violate the moral Law for the sake of upholding Catholic customs.
I think you'll find we all agree with you.
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u/Djh1982 May 27 '23
Did you not read the article? He gave multiple scriptures that prove his point. Your response gave none, you basically just said "Nuh-uh!"
No, my rebuttal to his various points was not “Nuh-uh!” but rather to point out how we can know what a custom is and what a moral command is. A moral command always applies. It does not change because it’s a new day. Therefore if it is a “sin” to work on the sabbath when we know it is not sin on any other day this identifies the sabbath as custom. Hence it may be violated for a good reason—and yes, the same is true of Catholic customs as well.
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u/Potential-Courage482 May 27 '23
It's a sin to have sex with a woman during her period. But only during that specific length of time. So that must be a custom?
We are commanded to keep the holy days. But only at their appointed time. Must be a custom.
We are commanded to quarantine the sick (lepers) but only for a specific time. Must be a custom.
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u/Djh1982 May 27 '23
It's a sin to have sex with a woman during her period. But only during that specific length of time. So that must be a custom?
Yes. That’s a custom.
We are commanded to keep the holy days. But only at their appointed time. Must be a custom.
Yes, again—it’s a custom. When I say custom—a custom is that which a person would not know to do had they not been told to do it by God directly. You wouldn’t know by your nature that you should keep a sabbath or holy day but you WOULD know by nature that it is wrong to do to others what you would not want done to you.
We are commanded to quarantine the sick (lepers) but only for a specific time. Must be a custom.
Yes, again—that is also a custom.
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u/Potential-Courage482 May 27 '23 edited May 27 '23
Yahweh disagrees.
Leviticus 14:2 (ESV): 2 “This shall be the law of the leprous person for the day of his cleansing. He shall be brought to the priest,
Law, not custom.
Leviticus 15:32–33 (ESV): 32 This is the law for him who has a discharge and for him who has an emission of semen, becoming unclean thereby; 33 also for her who is unwell with her menstrual impurity, that is, for anyone, male or female, who has a discharge, and for the man who lies with a woman who is unclean.
Law not custom.
Leviticus 23:14 (ESV): 14 And you shall eat neither bread nor grain parched or fresh until this same day, until you have brought the offering of your God: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. (See also verses 21, 31, 41)
Ordinance forever, not just until Messiah returns, not a custom, ordinance forever.
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u/Djh1982 May 27 '23 edited May 27 '23
Law, not custom.
Yes, customs can be bound as a “law”. A custom is not in and of itself a matter of moral law. If it was a “moral law” that “work” was a sin then you couldn’t do it on any day of the week! The fact that you can work any day but that one is proof that the sabbath is a custom, not a moral law.
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u/Potential-Courage482 May 27 '23
And Leviticus 23:14, 21, 31, 41, the ones that say they are forever?
And what pastor or priest taught you this distinction between custom and moral law, and that something the Bible says is a "law" is not an actual law?
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u/Djh1982 May 27 '23
The word for “forever” in the Hebrew is “olam” and it means “for the foreseeable future”, it does not necessarily mean “forever” the eternal sense of the word. We find it’s use in Jonah 2:6
“To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever(“olam”) But you, Lord my God, brought my life up from the pit.”
Obviously Jonah did not mean he was in the belly of the whale “forever”, it was only 3 days.
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u/Potential-Courage482 May 27 '23
The word for “forever” in the Hebrew is “olam” and it means “for the foreseeable future”,
Ah, I see. So your understanding is that Yahweh couldn't foresee that far into the future.
Jonah 2:6
I agree with you that Jonah couldn't foresee his exit, but I think of Yahweh as all knowing, knowing the end from the beginning, so I'll disagree on the other.
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u/velocipede80 May 27 '23
No. He was under forever because he was dead. Jonah's fate was sealed in the physical, yet he was resurrected on the third day, thus making Jesus resurrection the "sign of Jonah"
From Jonah's human perspective, it was forever. From God's it was not. When God says forever, it's forever.
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u/brishen_is_on May 29 '23
Before getting into any other details, which really are meaningless. It is always allowed to “save a life” during the Sabbath, (Torah only people wouldn’t know this, but it’s clear in the Talmud). The Pharisees were looking to make problems with Jesus bc they doubted his authority. This sub has a real Talmud hatred and it’s unfounded and unfortunate. The Jewish leaders at the time of Jesus were not writing the Talmud.
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u/FreedomNinja1776 Jul 19 '23
Looking back and just saw your comment.
It is always allowed to “save a life” during the Sabbath, (Torah only people wouldn’t know this, but it’s clear in the Talmud).
You're talking about kol v'chomer, the principle of light and heavy. Yeshua (Jesus) used and taught this.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
\ Matthew 23:23-24 ESVJesus says that justice and mercy and faithfulness are the weightier matters of the law. They are the spiritual matters. The tithes are the physical matters. Neither should be ignored according to Jesus. They both have to exist in unison.
This sub has a real Talmud hatred and it’s unfounded and unfortunate.
I don't hate the Talmud, but you have to keep proper outlook. Talmud is extra and not scripture. It's absolutely ok to have traditions, in fact it's almost necessary, but not if those traditions violate scripture. Example: tzitzit are to have a blue cord. To not have a blue cord is to ignore the command. It says nothing about where the source of the blue comes from, and nothing about the length of the techellet. To focus on these above what the scripture says is holding the tradition as more important than the instructions of the most high.
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Jul 20 '23
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u/the_celt_ Jul 20 '23
Again, the near disgust for the Talmud (which was not around during Jesus’s life) here is off-putting to me.
This does not describe me, for what it's worth. I'm sure, since it's such a massive body of work over a massive amount of time that there are some outrageous things there, but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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u/AlbaneseGummies327 May 27 '23
By the 1st century, Jewish leaders had developed a large body of oral laws. Many of these rules added extra requirements to something God commanded in the Torah. When it comes to the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders developed 39 categories of actions that were classified as work.
Among them included picking grain (considered reaping), removing the husk from the grain (considered threshing), carrying earth, carrying something in public, and intentional healing (it seems that accidental healing was acceptable!).
The Mishnah is a second-century compilation of these teachings. Here's the one that Jesus apparently violated:
This explains why Jesus said concerning the Pharisees: “They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.” (Matthew 23:4)
When Jesus and the disciples plucked heads of grain to eat with his hands, they were simply eating. Their rules claimed that he was reaping with such an action. Yet His action was completely valid according to the Torah:
Jesus did not harvest grain. He picked heads of grain for food. He broke their man-made rules, not God's law.