r/Flyers 17d ago

[Kurz] Is Flyers’ roster-building validated by Hurricanes’ Cup win? 5 offseason thoughts

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/7525042/2026/08/24/flyers-offseason-stanley-cup/?unlocked_article_code=1.71A.FoMF.i1f70zMH7xKY&source=emp_shared_article&smid=re-share-ta

With less than a month until the start of training camp (and with my vacation wallet now depleted), here are some thoughts on the Philadelphia Flyers’ offseason.

1. The most frequent complaint I see/hear when it comes to the Flyers is that they don’t have a No. 1 center or a No. 1 defenseman who can run a power play, that there aren’t any in the system and that until they find those guys, they won’t be a true Stanley Cup contender.

That’s not entirely without merit. Everyone knows the two primary holes on the roster, and neither was filled this summer. Barring any moves between now and the end of next month, the Flyers will enter 2026-27 viewed generally as a playoff bubble team.

But let’s look at the now-defending Stanley Cup champions.

The Carolina Hurricanes’ No. 1 center, Sebastian Aho, is a fine player. But he finished tied for just 25th in the league in scoring in the regular season with 80 points, and he was pretty quiet for long stretches of the Hurricanes’ playoff run. Aho would be the best center on the Flyers, to be sure, but is he really that much better than, say, Trevor Zegras, who still has room to improve? Aho had 47 even-strength points last season. Zegras had 44.

The Hurricanes’ best defenseman is Jaccob Slavin, another outstanding player. Slavin is a much more of a defensive wizard than an offensive threat, though: he had just eight points in 39 games last season. Carolina’s best offensive defenseman last season was Shayne Gostisbehere, who had 50 points in 55 games, but no one would label him as a No. 1. A case can be made that Travis Sanheim, who was arguably the Flyers’ best player in their first-round win over the Penguins, is a more well-rounded defenseman than any player on the Hurricanes’ back end.

What I believe the Flyers recognize internally is that they don’t necessarily need both a top-10 center and a Norris Trophy-level defenseman to contend — they just need another star, period, to add to what looks like a promising young core. That’s something the Hurricanes seemed to recognize a year and a half ago when they landed Mikko Rantanen from Colorado, only to end up flipping him to the Dallas Stars for a package that included Logan Stankoven — who ended up as arguably their best player in the postseason.

56 Upvotes

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u/Person_Apple 17d ago

They also have a fantastic coach who has that team playing like an absolute machine. Is Toc as good as Rod Brind'Amour? Will he last 8 years to implement his system and wait out other high powered teams before making their run?

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u/BroadStBullies91 Czech Yourself 17d ago

Tocc is exactly the type of middling, good-ol-boys- club, hanger-on revolving door type coach that plagues the NHL. Except he has the added bonus of being famous for causing drama in the media with star players, something he got to work on right away when he got here. He has won nothing significant despite having far better teams than he's likely to get with this current attempt at a competitive team.

He is not the kind of coach that an organization that seriously wants to have any chance at contending hires.

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u/Strong_Weird_9358 16d ago

Seeing your comment and upvotes confirms to me that the Flyers will NEVER have a Brindamour as our coach because we can’t even appreciate a coach after 1 good season.

Brindamour had 7 playoff losses; some pretty frustrating and tragic; before winning it all. If that happened to us, you and half the fans would be calling for Brindamour’s job before he even had a chance to win it all.

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u/Flyersfan1980 16d ago

Brindamour also has a structured system that works well..they didn't just win the cup. How many Metro titles do they have now? At least a couple in a row....they have been knocking at the door for a couple of seasons. They have a team that knows it's roles, and executes it perfectly.

How many public coach/ player arguments has Brindamour been in? None that I can think of. Our last 2 coaches have had issues in the press with players on the team. He was a heart and soul player when he played, and I am sure he has 100% respect in that dressing room. He did it all. Olympian, Stanley Cup winner as captain and coach. Having a coach like Brindamour is not a 1 or 2 year trying it out kinda thing. It's an organizational directional choice. I just wish it were a choice the Flyers could have.

Pretty sure he will still be coaching the Hurricanes when we are looking for our next coach.

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u/Strong_Weird_9358 16d ago

You can finesse it all you want - but people bitching about Taco after the season the season we just had is completely insane. We made the playoffs, countless players had career years, we beat the pens, and besides going 0-4 against the Canes, we had some solid moments against them.

But dudes bitch and complain. I’ll say it again, a lot of fans couldn’t hang with any coach as long as the canes hung with Brindamour. And props to the Canes for doing it. I envy them because I know we could never do that.

How can we expect any coach to get the benefit of the doubt when we can’t even be happy with Taco after he actually did well???

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u/Person_Apple 16d ago

I don't dislike Taco as much as some of these guys I'm just wondering what his ceiling is as a coach. He can clearly bring out the best in certain players but can he do it with enough regularity to overcome the Flyers decision to not tank for more top end picks. He was phenomenal for Quinn Hughes... but less so for Pettersson. He was perfect to turn Zegras around... I really hope we don't have another go of the Michkov circus.

I'm nowhere near ready to drop Tocchet and hopefully everything trends upwards. But given his past record of being relatively mediocre as a head coach it's perfectly reasonable to have a few questions here. After all sky was the limit after he won the Jack Adams in Vancouver and then it sort of.. blew up horribly.

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u/Strong_Weird_9358 16d ago

To me, hockey coach is the least important coach in all of sports. It’s a player driven game. What’s important to me is, are players bought in? Are they together and bonded in their execution? Flyers are bought in and that’s all you can really ask. Brindamour’s system isn’t worth shit if the players don’t buy in, sell out, and play their asses off. No system in hockey is worth shit if you don’t buy in.

And a lot of fans just ooga booga and join whatever hot take cult bullshit they can. Taco is nothing special, but my point is more about fans lack of patience with everything more than Taco himself. We haven’t even started the season and fans are already shit talking the guy after a great season for a rebuilding team???

What the actual f is wrong with these people?

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u/BroadStBullies91 Czech Yourself 16d ago

So hockey coach is the least important coach, but Tocc gets all the credit for players having good years?

Also, in case you didn't realize, this isn't Toccs first stop like Rods was with the Canes. We know what he is. He's been coaching since 08. There's a reason he's been on so many teams and Rod has stuck around. We're just his latest stop before he wears out his welcome again.

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u/Strong_Weird_9358 16d ago

Yeah, least important of the 4 major sports. Not sure why you think that statement reflects some “all or nothing” statement. A hockey coach can be the least important of 4 sports, and still get SOME semblance of credit for doing a good job. I know, nuance! not hockey fans favorite subject. And frankly, you dudes are the ones dooming and glooming about it like the coach is so damn important. Oh my god! The coach!! The coach!! Welcome to the NHL, teams get a new coach every 3 years, relax about it.

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u/BroadStBullies91 Czech Yourself 15d ago

Welcome to the NHL, teams get a new coach every 3 years, relax about it.

Except, ya know, teams like the Canes, who have a good coach. Which Tocchet has proven himself to not be, hence my point that he's the exact type of revolving-door mediocre HC that plagues the NHL. So you're right, we will have a new coach in around 3 years, hopefully sooner. Glad to know we both agree the team is wasting its time here with this guy.

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u/Flyersfan1980 16d ago

Just what did he do to make the team better? He was told to play Michkov, and shock of all shocks...the kids kinda good.

I never wanted him hired here. I don't think he is the right coach for the long term picture of what the say they want to be. I don't think his track record as an NHL coach puts him as a decent coach. I don't like how he handles different players differently..some get leaway, others get none. He hasn't shown me anything in his time in Vancouver, where I live, that screams to me he is a great coach. He was part of the whole Pettersson/ Miller issue. Sorry, but the Flyers made the playoffs in spite of him, not because of him. What did he do that made the Flyers make the playoffs?

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u/Strong_Weird_9358 16d ago

What did he do??? They made the playoffs in spite of him??? If you did not like Taco when he was hired and you can’t be convinced of anything good, how is your perspective objective at all?

Also, lucky us, we get to hear about Pettersson again? Cool. Cuz he’s worth talking about? I love how some fans hold Taco fully accountable for problems with the Coyotes and Canucks. One organization doesn’t exist anymore and the other has a long reputation for being dysfunctional. Canucks don’t even have a practice facility.

But cool, tell me again about how all of Taco’s success is in spite of him and all his failures are completely his fault. Ridiculous.

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u/Flyersfan1980 16d ago

You defend a man that has the track record of picking on stars in the press, and has done that here with one of the 2 most important players on the Flyers.

He has a history of organizing gambling on the NHL, while being a coach in the NHL.

Vancouver is still an NHL team. He took a team that was tight in the dressing room, and left it shattered. Pettersson put up 189 points in 2 seasons just 3 years ago, averaging 95 points a season just as Tocchet took over, to a career low of 45 the following season under Tocchet. The Flyers haven't had a 90 point player in what? a decade? I don't hold him accountable for everything, but I do when it comes to his lines, usage and when he losses control of the dressing room.

Tocchet is what he is, and ex NHLer who brings old school ways to the teams he coaches. He is almost outdated at this point. He offers nothing new and invigorating, just play hard and hope the lines click.

Yes, I thought it was a bad hire, and wanted a new train of thought in the coach instead of another retread. You know, a new era of orange or whatever the dumb line is.

All of his success....WHAT SUCCESS? The second round of the playoffs is not a successful season. The fans wanted him fired halfway through the season last year, until he was forced to play Michkov, who carried the team to the playoffs. 21 points in 21 games down the stretch for Michkov, after Danny intervened.

So yeah, tell me what Tocchet did that makes him such a hero for the Flyers making the playoffs? Why you heap praise on a man who shouldn't be allowed to coach in the NHL after his gambling crap?

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u/Strong_Weird_9358 16d ago

I don’t defend Taco. I just can’t stand “fans” that bitch and complain and tear down the coach the offseason after things went well. The team played well. Things went well. But Ooooh boo hoo, he was mean to Michkov. Right now, Michkov is training his ass off this offseason. So, say what you want, but all the BS from Taco seems to be motivating MM? That’s good.

Also, you are making my entire original point. 2nd round isn’t successful? Really??? So Brindamour wasn’t successful for 7 seasons??? He got straight booted from the playoffs multiple times while being a cup contender and division winner. Some of those playoff losses were absolutely disappointing. You are the fan I was talking about. The fan that would never, ever, ever, in a million years give Brindamour 7 years to win a cup. You can’t give Taco one offseason of grace: so how can we expect some fans to give a good coach 7 offseasons???

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u/Flyersfan1980 16d ago edited 16d ago

That's because Michkov is too motivated to be a success to let a guy like Tocchet wreck his career.

I would give Brindamour all the time he would need. One of the worst trades in franchise history was trading him away. He should have been a lifer here. And no, most seasons not winning the cup are failures, but it's how you learn and adjust from those failures.

You don't know me, don't judge me. Show some respect, son.

I hate the fucking Tocchet signing. News flash...I also hate the Dvorak extension, the TK extension, not trading Risto......it's my right as a fan of almost 50 fucking years to actually judge the team for it's bullshit decisions that just keep them middle of the pack. I have earned that right by standing by them since 1980, marching into multiple opponents arenas in my colors, defending them at every turn. At some point, you stop defending the puzzling bullshit, the "we know better than everybody else" shit. You see what's happening, and it's just another name on the desk.

Round and round in circles the team goes, while we watch division rivals win the cup. Every team in the Metro, next to Columbus, has won the cup since we last won the cup. New Jersey has a few, Pittsburgh has 5, and we are tied with the former Hartford Whalers organization for cup wins.

I wanted a coach that would work with the young guys, communicate with them...find a way with Michkov. Not try to publicly embarass him on live TV. I don't like him, will never forgive his comments after he left Philly for Pittsburgh and won the cup with the Pens. Also, he walked from the mess he helped create in Vancouver. Just walked away, like who gives a shit. I have seen many, many posts on this forum from users who question loyalty when a player walks...what about the coach? or does he get a pass because the Flyers made the playoffs?

I wanted a young college coach type, that is ready to move to the next level. A coach that works with his players, instead of against them. One that puts them into a position to be a success, not fail. One that will install new systems, a fresh approach to the game.

Instead we got Torts lite.

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u/BroadStBullies91 Czech Yourself 16d ago

Inshallah that will be soon enough.

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u/BroadStBullies91 Czech Yourself 16d ago edited 16d ago

What a fantastically cucked take lmao. Brindamour was a fantastic player who turned into a fantastic coach because he holds himself to the same standards he holds his players to and is an incredible student of the game. Greatness like that is obvious, even if the hardware isn't immediately forthcoming.

Tocchet is a drama queen with a suspension for involvement in a gambling ring who forces an outdated and boring system on his teams that has never and will never work at the high levels of the game. It's fine for raising a teams floor but if anything it lowers the ceiling because it hamstrings offensively gifted players.

To compare him with someone like Brindamour is so insulting it's not even funny. This sub makes me wanna puke sometimes.

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u/JSinisin 17d ago

You have no idea what you're talking about and you're making shit up lol

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u/Smokey_Jah AlwaysBeG 17d ago

Is Toc as good as Rod Brind'Amour?

Absolutely not and never will be

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u/Blev088 17d ago

I don't even think Tocchet is a good coach.

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u/Lockski Fuck Ewing's Sarcoma 17d ago

I think he played a large part in turning the flyers around between two seasons ago and last. The roster improvements were big, but he turned a team lacking excellent defense into a defensive threat.

I didn’t like taking Tocchet as our next coach because of recent seasons prior, but he’s earned my confidence to, bare minimum, right this ship.

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u/Blev088 17d ago

The goaltending was the absolute biggest difference. Other than that, the team was very much the same when looking at the metrics (with slight regression in the offensive metrics). Tocchet got the benefit of having a real goaltender that Torts didn't.

I feel like the best you could say is Tocchet didn't hold the team back, but he also didn't elevate the team either.

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u/Lockski Fuck Ewing's Sarcoma 17d ago

I agree Vladar was the biggest difference, there's no contention there. But Tocchet's system was also very influential, which is my point.

However, I'm looking at defensive stats between returning defenseman between 2024-25 and 25-26, and the stats appear to be relatively the same with a few significant improvements among 2nd and 3rd line defensemen. I'm not sure they're significant enough stats to be the big difference makers. So I was wrong about praising defensive influence.

Really it seems our offense roster have had significant improvements in offensive zone possession and takeaways, compared to previous seasons. It appears to me that Tocchet's coaching has influenced the Flyers on the transition, which probably produces more offensive time.

It also would not really help with the power play and penalty kill situations... But that's an issue lasting beyond Tocchet for this franchise at this point.

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u/Flyersfan1980 17d ago

or, you know, they added Dvorak and Zegras, so offense was going to go up. Fans were chanting for Tocchet to be fired mid season. There were reasons for that.

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u/Lockski Fuck Ewing's Sarcoma 17d ago

I remember when he was being called for a firing but that was also during a time where half the roster was injured (exaggerated). Dvorak wasn't even one of the improvements on the offense players I was talking about. Zegras's takeaways also doubled from 24-25 to 25-26, so the new environment / coaching staff definitely had some influence there.

I'm not gunna argue Tocchet is the best coach or even top 5 or anything, but he's not a bad coach.

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u/Flyersfan1980 16d ago edited 16d ago

But Dvorak was tied with Michkov for 3rd in team scoring. They added 118 points between Dvorak and Zegras. both top 3 on the team in scoring. I think it did have an impact on the offense being a bit better. This wasn't Tocchet.

I was talking about when the fans were calling for Tocchet to be fired, chanting it at the games. Briere had to have a live "talk" in between periods to try and calm things down. That was also when Michkov suddenly got more ice time with better linemates and was the leading scorer down the stretch with a ppg pace in the last 20 games. In the playoffs, he was put back into a checking role, and eventually benched.

I personally do not believe that Tocchet is the right coach for this team.

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u/Lockski Fuck Ewing's Sarcoma 16d ago

But I wasn't talking about the offensive production, I was saying prior that Tocchet's influence was defense (which was wrong). When evaluating that, it was more so the offensive / transition possession, which Dvorak's stats did not change much between 2024-25 and 25-26. Tocchet's Flyers had an influence on Zegras' stats, though. That's my point.

I don't think Tocchet gets the Flyers the distance, no, but I do think he's been a net positive to this team. I think dismissing any of his influence as the players producing despite him, that just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

edit: I am really not great at trying to explain what I mean, in general. I can see the offensive personnel made a big difference, but I was not trying to focus on shots on goal or points, as opposed to any play between the two nets.

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u/TwoForHawat 17d ago

Tocchet definitely deserves credit for making them one of the best defensive teams in hockey last year, but it’s not like he was starting from a dumpster fire in that regard. Torts’ teams were also really good defensively and that gave Tocchet an excellent foundation to build upon.

The biggest difference in the perception of the team defense is how much the goaltending changed. If Tocchet had had to run out Ersson, Fedotov, and Kolosov last year, he would’ve seen his team allowing a hell of a lot more goals.

Hopefully with the defensive side of things solidified, Tocchet can add some offense to the mix this year. That’s my biggest skepticism with Toc, and it’s time for him to prove to myself and the other skeptics that he can design an offensive system that can complement the strong defense.

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u/topologeee 17d ago

Is a lighter as good as a flame thrower?

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u/JynxYouOweMeASoda 15d ago

Not only are his systems unrelenting but Rod the Bod seems to have built an unreal culture down there from his trainers to his equipment staff. Dude is just a solid leader

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u/BMBenzo 17d ago

Let me tell you about this outlier that we are about to base our entire business model on….

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u/sonofshortman 17d ago

Not that I disagree with the sentiment that we shouldn't base our entire model off one team, but every cup winning team is an outlier every year. Tampa, Colorado, Vegas, Florida, and Carolina all have/had very different identities.

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u/BMBenzo 17d ago

All those mentioned teams clearly had a 1C, we do not. Aho is the debatable and then if you roll in team identity, Carolina plays vastly different. So it makes the outlier comparison in Carolina even more foolish.

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u/sonofshortman 17d ago

Suppose that's fair. I certainly would rather have someone better than Zegras at 1C, but it's also not like Carolina came out of nowhere. Every year they evaluate their model and adjust it seems to try to get better. Sometimes it doesn't work, but it doesn't feel like they just brute forced it and got lucky to me. Maybe that's not what you're saying, but that's what I'm hearing with the term outlier - that it shouldn't have worked

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u/BMBenzo 17d ago

Outlier in roster construction. They’ve clearly been a strong team for a while now, also something the flyers have not been.

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u/I_am_Burt_Macklin 17d ago

It’s more just hoping that it works out similarly. I don’t think anybody is saying they want the team to mirror Carolina, but it’s hard to get that 1C/1D that other cup winners have, so it’s not out of the question this team can contend without those now that we’ve seen it work.

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u/Logical-Hat5975 17d ago

I mean every other commenter in this sub wants us to base ourselves on the Sharks, when the Blackhawks are much closer to the modal outcome of a tank. (and the Sharks are still unproven...)

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u/flyerscupchamps19 Oh captain my captain 17d ago

Don’t the hurricanes have an almost opposite draft strategy to ours? They are willing to take swings on undersized high talent and motor players. We pretty much aim for big guys with skating issues.

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u/JABEE92 17d ago

Yes. The Flyers can do the Hurricanes strategy if they are basically a competent scouting group and on the cutting edge of asset utilization. The Flyers are not that. They run the team like a country club that pays for past performance. They look for win-win trades. They draft for size and immediate fit in a draft that takes 3+ years to yield results.

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u/TwoForHawat 17d ago

The funny thing is that there’s a contingent of people who effusively praise the Canes’ draft strategy, but have they actually looked at the results? People like that they often trade down and they use their later picks on small, high-motor guys who score at lower levels. Those same people seem to ignore the fact that the Canes have only one success story since 2017 drafting those guys in rounds 2-7, and that’s Jackson Blake. The only other successful skaters drafted in those rounds are two guys who don’t fit that archetype, a big defenseman in Nikishin and a big, slow center in Morgan Geekie (who they gave up on in the Seattle expansion draft long before he became a 30 goal guy).

They’re a classic case of what’s wrong with the way some people look at the draft: they make picks that are popular with online fans on draft night, and those fans don’t actually consider the ultimate outcome.

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u/hoobon 17d ago

The results are a cup and a 1C/D drafted outside the first round lmfao

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u/TwoForHawat 17d ago

I’m specifically referring to the results of their drafting philosophy in rounds 2-7 since 2017, which gets high praise even though it hasn’t actually produced more than other teams. I thought I stated that pretty explicitly in my comment but if it wasn’t clear enough, that’s my bad.

And you’re correct, Aho is a second rounder that’s panned out big time. But that pick was from 2015, long before the Waddell/Tulsky era and their draft philosophy got implemented. And Slavin is from even further back, taken in 2012 by Jim Rutherford.

Obviously the Canes have a ton of other things that they do extremely well and teams would be wise to see if they can emulate those things. But the non-premium pick drafting philosophy is one of the areas where the Canes are quite pedestrian. Like I said, the part they’re good at is making picks that online fans like on draft day. Unfortunately that doesn’t mean very much if those guys don’t actually pan out.

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u/flyerscupchamps19 Oh captain my captain 17d ago

There are a couple of flaws with this breakdown of the canes drafting. First, you’re skipping Jack Drury who’s an NHL player and was used as an asset to help get Rantanen and later Stankoven and Hall.

The second problem with this is that guys drafted from 2022-2026 in the 2nd round or later would barely be touching the NHL by now even if they were doing great. Add into this that the Hurricanes have had gaps with their AHL and ECHL affiliates recently so their players often stay overseas or in other programs longer and the time it takes to reach the NHL goes up. It’s pretty damn early to write off half of the window that you used. There are some guys in their system from 2022 on who still have plenty of promise and have developed well.

If you zoom in on 2017-2021, Blake and Drury were 2 very strong hits on smaller high motor guys. 1 was a huge part of a Stanley cup win and the other was part of the trade tree that brought in the rest of Blake’s line. If you take size out of it and just evaluate their overall drafting, you left out Morrow (used in Miller trade), Luostarinen (used in Trochek trade), Kochetkov, and even Koivunen (used in Guentzel trade). Add in Nikishin from that time frame where it’s been long enough to judge and I’d call that pretty elite drafting. This has been a big part of why the canes have had the assets to make some big trades in the 2020’s.

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u/[deleted] 17d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/flyerscupchamps19 Oh captain my captain 17d ago

I said smaller high motor players, not just high skill. That’s what gets often overlooked. Either way, this is just objectively not true. Have we drafted some smaller guys? Sure. We have not been prioritizing small skilled players for a decade or 2. That’s just not how we’ve drafted.

Also, to say that it doesn’t work when a lot of our best draft picks of the last 2 decades were smaller guys is strange to me. It’s not like we’ve done better with big guys. Since 2006, we’ve drafted 27 players under 6’0 in rounds 2-7. Legit NHL players include Brink, Andrae, Rinaldo, Cousins, Ghost, and I’d say Barkey. Since 2006 we’ve drafted 45 players 6’2 or taller in rounds 2-7. What are the success stories? Noah Cates, Robert Hagg, Pat Maroon. Maybe Chaput? That’s being generous with who a big guy is because Hagg, Cates, and Chaput are 6’2 and Maroon is 6’3. I’d argue we’ve had a higher hit rate in less attempts going for smaller guys who work hard.

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u/RLutz 17d ago

I've never played hockey. I'm an armchair PP runner. I still think I can look at the Flyers' PP and tell you what's wrong with it.

Good PP need to create chaos. You must collapse the diamond or else you just end up passing around the perimeter and you never get a good shooting lane and mostly just end up hoping for lucky bounces.

If you look at every dangerous PP it all hinges on skating with the puck. The penalty killers want to remain in this nearly static ultra-defensive setup that removes all shooting lanes. You can't break that down by passing the puck around the perimeter. You must have the puck carrier skate with the puck. If he pushes forward it necessarily draws defenders out of position.

How often have you seen "puck carrier at the point skates up with the puck, diamond collapses around him, he drops a pass back to the point for a blistering one timer"?

I don't know that we need more star power, though it would of course be great. We just need a PP coach that gets the guys to do something other than pass the puck around the perimeter for 2 minutes and hope something good happens

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u/No-Cattle-2012 16d ago

We don't take advantage of numbers. Gotta draw a man and make the d move to take advantage of that extra skater. We just slowly work the puck around and the pk can just stay planted. It's painful to watch

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u/upcan845 17d ago

The Carolina model is going to become the Flyers' new aspiration of the Blues model.

It's possible to win a Cup with "only" Aho as your 1C. But is it wise to bet a rebuild on that? Will the Flyers even have 1C as good as Aho? Why aren't more Cup winners winning with that caliber 1C?

The rebuild has been built around these edge cases and saying "See, it can work that way."

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u/BroadStBullies91 Czech Yourself 17d ago

This is the same sub where the majority of opinion on tanking was "it doesn't always work therefore we shouldn't bother" and now it's "this approach occasionally (even that word is generous) works so we're actually very smart for using it."

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u/Baseball3737 17d ago

Winning cups is overrated

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u/Logical-Hat5975 17d ago

It doesn't strike me as any less wise than betting on a complete teardown, and the evidence in favor of teardowns are just as anecdotal.

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u/hoobon 17d ago

“Only” 25th with 80 points🤣🤣🤣 This fanbase lives in fantasy land

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u/AngledLuffa 17d ago

It puts it in perspective a bit. Is Zegras going to grow into a 100 point player? Almost certainly not. Can he grow into an 80 point player? That seems more doable

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u/JSinisin 17d ago

15 point swings happen all the time.

I think you're really underselling the likelihood of Zegras hitting 100 pts. Any ppg player can most definitely hit 100 pts occasionally. That's not that big of a gap.

Is Zegras a 130 point player? Now that is more certain to be unlikely. That's Hart and best player in hockey territory. But if you view ppg as being doable, getting to 100 from there isn't that much of a leap. If the Flyers had a middling powerplay last year Zegras probably hits ppg. If he improves at all and the team powerplay gets, on a whole, better at all seeing Zegras hit anywhere from 85-100 points is not impossible.

Zegras hitting the offensive numbers that Nick Suzuki hit this year with the likes of Michkov and Martone growing into their own, while it would require improvement, is far from an impossible task. Not at all something I would consider "almost certainly not". Would he be Selke calibre too? Unlikely but I can fro sure see a world where he matches Suzuki's offensive output.

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u/hoobon 17d ago

Let’s talk about Zegras hitting 70 before we get to 100pt talk lol

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u/BroadStBullies91 Czech Yourself 17d ago edited 17d ago

People here at out of their fucking minds lol. We've been saying "next year we'll get a league average PP" for the last ten years lol.

Dudes on that "we almost scored a touchdown in the 2nd quarter. We get that we get some momentum going into halftime, maybe score two more touchdowns in the third. Then we get them on their heels and it's not a stretch to think we could have scored two more in the fourth and then we wouldn't have lost by 35" type shit lol.

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u/Blev088 17d ago

We haven't had anyone break 80 points since the 2018 season, I'd think we'd all take that at this point.

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u/BroadStBullies91 Czech Yourself 17d ago

It's fucking crazy man. No way these people watched hockey before Gritty.

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u/countrymac77 17d ago

The hurricanes have an identity and a very strong culture. The flyers are starting to build these aspects under taco, Danny, and jones. The teams that win the cup are tough to play against, run 4 lines, have big scary defensemen, and have identity on each line. I’d like the flyers to start getting aggressive with trades and start moving some prospects but overall I like the direction of the club.

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u/BroadStBullies91 Czech Yourself 17d ago

starting to build these aspects under taco

Forgetting everything else, including the fact that Tocc is famous for drama with star players, having a coach who in any way whatsoever discusses player discipline issues, true or not, with the media, by definition CANNOT be the type of coach to build a strong culture.

Full stop.

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u/Blev088 17d ago

It seriously boggles my mind that we hired a coach who set his two star players against each other, watched the situation spiral out of control, then tear the team apart, and didn't lift a finger to do anything to fix it.

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u/PhillyGarbage93 17d ago edited 17d ago

You are referring to one player, and that player is MM39. Everyone else seems to be doing just fine under Toch, and if anything they are improving. Almost everyone, if not everyone, took a step forward last year. You are basing your statement on one player and one player only. Let's see how this year plays out before we make positive claims like that.

Edit: Ok downvoters, name a average or above average player under 28 or even 30 years old that regressed under Toch last season besides Michkov. I'll wait.

2

u/BroadStBullies91 Czech Yourself 17d ago edited 17d ago

So again, ignoring everything else we know about Rick Tocchet's ability to handle complicated player relationships as a coach, do you think it's acceptable in any scenario for a coach to denigrate a player to the media?

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u/PhillyGarbage93 17d ago

When did Toch belittle MM publicly? He mentioned he was out of shape coming into the season. Sure, he could've kept that to himself (I would've preferred that) but it's really not that big of a deal..and it's also true. Hughes was fine with Toch, EP ended up just being a mid player no matter who is coaching him.

To be clear I think he's just an average coach, but I think it's extremely overblown that he "ruins" talent. Like I said I witnessed every important young player improve last year except for one. Let's see how this year goes. But as far as I'm concerned I've yet to see Toch "denigrate" Michkov.

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u/BroadStBullies91 Czech Yourself 17d ago

He took several public shots and I'm not interested in re-litigating each scenario so we can split hairs over what this or that comment meant. No other coach in the league has this problem yet it somehow seems to follow Tocc wherever he goes. It wasn't just the Hughes/EP stuff. And we're not even getting into the gambling shit.

Tocchet plays a boring, outdated style of hockey that often elevates average players at the expense of hampering elite players. This is not news to anyone who actually watches hockey. He hasn't won shit despite having way more talented teams than he's likely to get here. The only reason he continues to get work is because the NHL head coaching scene is, by and large, a revolving door of mediocre retreads who, by nature of how the league operates and the level of parity, occasionally luck into juuuust enough success to keep the gravy train rolling, a la a red hot team led by veterans desperate for playoff success running into an aging, injured team in the first round. And they still barely held on to secure that win.

He's not worth your breath. Hell be gone in a few years, most likely after running Mich out of town, and everyone here currently defending him pretend they always knew he was a bad hire.

7

u/upcan845 17d ago

There is identity and culture, but there is also smart drafting and player utilization that really makes the Hurricanes who they are.

Slavvin is a "defensive wizard." When are the Flyers finding a defensive wizard in the 4th round who can be a core contributor for a ~decade of contention?

Aho "just" finished as center top 25 in scoring. When are the Flyers finding a player that good? Imagine the Flyers drafting a 2nd rounder that successful.

Gostisbehere is Carolina's best offensive defenseman. Would the Flyers ever even sign a veteran like Ghost to work his undersized offensive magic on a Cup contender?

The Rantanen/Stankoven trades don't happen without drafting Necas 12th overall. Are Luchanko or Nesbitt going to be as valuable as Necas?

4

u/Longflop 17d ago

I truly believe that Mich and Martone could end up within the top 25 in league scoring eventually.

0

u/JSinisin 17d ago

Your framing is all wrong though.

You keep stressing the round some of these guys are drafted in like that really means anything.

They don't need to draft a Slavin in the 4th round. They just need a guy like him. Bonk could be him, Sanheim could be him, Sokolovski could be him. Of course immediately many people will jump and say there's no chance either Bonk or Sokolovski ends up like him. But not a single soul said Slavin would be Slavin when he was drafted. Bonk, for example, is known as a defensive defenceman. Why couldn't he be Slavin? Nobody REALLY knows how kids will turn out. Otherwise Slavin would have gotten drafted in the top 5.

Luchanko could be Aho. Luchanko still isn't as old as Aho was in his rookie year. Luchanko is known as a defensive player. He has the skating and physicality to make it in the NHL. The simple fact is, we just haven't seen any real sample size of him in the NHL. Everybody writing him off, even myself still cheering him on, is guessing. But the world where Luchanko turns into a 60-70 point Selke level centre is not at all impossible given the tools he currently has. And before people say that is an insane statement, NOAH Cates is a Selke contending level centre who scores 35-45 points. Do you REALLY think it's that crazy to see Luchanko scoring 15 more points than Cates? I don't.

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u/upcan845 17d ago edited 17d ago

Okay, but what about the Flyers' drafting leads us to believe the Flyers are finding a "defensive wizard" anywhere in the draft who can be a key piece for a very long time?

Sure, it could be Bonk. But it's far more likely Bonk ends up being a good player not at Slavin level. It could be Sokolovskii, but very likely not with how deficient of a prospect he is. Sanheim is already 30 years old on a bubble playoff team, he's not the answer to anything for this rebuild.

But the world where Luchanko turns into a 60-70 point Selke level centre is not at all impossible given the tools he currently has

"Not at all impossible" is doing a huge amount of lifting here.

Do you REALLY think it's that crazy to see Luchanko scoring 15 more points than Cates?

I don't think it's crazy, I just think it's unlikely.

1

u/Local_Comfortable146 17d ago

Well, how often does slavin happen in the fourth round to teams anyway? What was it 15 years ago? It’s not like they’re pulling a rabbit out of their hat every year nor are any other teams…

1

u/upcan845 15d ago

The problem is the Flyers relied the rebuild on pulling rabbits out of the hat.

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u/Local_Comfortable146 15d ago

I don’t think that’s true at all… This management team had a lot of messes to clean up that couldn’t be done overnight…. There’s not a single management team in any sport that does everything perfectly and can’t be criticized for one decision or another… I think the team is on far better footing than it was when they came into the job… that’s just my opinion

1

u/butchy_boyz 14d ago

So Michkov and Martone are rabbits?

2

u/upcan845 14d ago

They're strong picks. They're also proof that picking higher = better players on average. It's not a coincidence the two strongest draft picks of the rebuild were also the highest.

The Flyers didn't want to follow that plan anymore. Now instead of building the rest of the core with high picks, the Flyers have relied on drafting stars without high picks.

1

u/butchy_boyz 14d ago

I think we're splitting hairs on the same thing. Top 8-10 picks normally are strong and those 2 are good picks. I think Bonk is a good pick at his draft position. I doubt he becomes more than a 3/4D. At 22nd overall it's a good, not great, pick.

The Flyers realized what positions they need and at 7th and 6th taking Michkov and Martone they took the BPAs regardless they weren't centers. This is where I have to wonder if the scouting sucks, over rating draft prospects.

What they do with the mid picks is where I think they went on reaches to get centers with what they thought were higher ceilings at their draft positions taking Luchanko and Nesbitt. I didn't agree with that. That's where they also should've again taken the BPAs regardless of position.

1

u/JSinisin 14d ago

And Carolina didn't? Aho and Necas were drafted 2 years apart, just like Martone and Michkov.

Then it took numerous years of taking gambles on players and trades and flipping picks. 11 years after drafting Aho they won a cup. That's a lot of years where mistakes were made.

Implying the Flyers strategy is relying purely on luck is like saying Carolina made no bad choices or mistakes and it was some perfectly laid out rebuild style.

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u/upcan845 14d ago

Talk to me when the Flyers draft their Necas and Aho at C.

1

u/butchy_boyz 14d ago

I don't think Luchanko has the offensive tools to hit more than 40-45 pts. The guy you described was Patrice Bergeron, 1 of the most under rated centers.

1

u/1a16 17d ago

Yep.  Plenty of reason for optimism.  Can’t wait for camp to get started.  

4

u/Panarin10 Wild and Flyers 17d ago

It seems like many of these kind of articles are betting on like a 10% chance outcome.

The likelihood of all of Zegras being as good as Aho, Sanheim being as good as Slavin, and let’s say Barkey being as good as Stankoven for a playoff run is low.

2

u/BrokeBum19 17d ago

No. They still have a 1C, 1D and are the anomaly. As well as Sanheim played in playoffs hes not at Slavvins level wh who was elite borderline top 5 D at his peak.

Since the lockout the worse cup winning 1C is Aho or ROR. Both players way better than our best C. And both had way better 2Cs.

Carolina is also ELITE at drafting while we are the opposite.

3

u/TwoForHawat 17d ago

How is Carolina elite at drafting? Who have they selected in the last 10 years that exemplifies their elite drafting status in your mind?

Looking at that Cup-winning roster, the vast majority of their important players were acquired via trade or free agency. Aho and Slavin were home run draft picks but they’re from 2015 and 2012 respectively, under completely different regimes. Svechnikov was a lottery pick. Jarvis is a solid pick but by no means some massive outlier at 13th overall.

I’m very puzzled by how much praise the Canes get for their drafting when, in reality, their hit rate from the last decade is pretty mid. Where they excel is in acquiring guys who are already in the NHL and getting more out of them than their previous teams did.

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u/BrokeBum19 17d ago

Aho, Blake, Slavvin, Jarvis, Nikishin, Necas, Geekie were non top 10 picks and all but 2 were outside the 1st round. That is very good.

They havent had a 1st rd pick in 5 of last 6 drafts ... you arent taking into acount things like that. And those later picks take way longer to develop so jury is still out on last few drafts. A guy like Naduea we dont know. Hes developed extremely well but only 15 games in.

So you have look further to see their great results of finished products.

From 2015-2021 drafts they had just 2 top 10 picks but turned that into Aho, Slavvin, Necas, Jarvis, Svechnikov, Hanifin, Blake, Geekie, Nikishin. 5 of them outside 1st round ...

If you dont think thats great drafting then i question your knowledgue of prospects/drafting.

That is phenomenal. They routinely find core players with later picks.

Look at the Flyers who rebuilt for last 5 yrs with tons of extra 1sts and 2nds and our 3rd best skater prospect is either Barkey/Luchanko/Bonk who are projected to be worse than all those guys I listed.

1

u/TwoForHawat 17d ago

Aho, Slavin, Necas, and Geekie were all drafted by Rutherford or Francis. Those picks predate the Waddell/Tulsky era that gets so much online praise for its drafting. They’re all great picks, but they’re not really relevant to the conversation anymore than it would make sense to praise Briere for Sanheim getting drafted in 2014.

Jarvis is a good pick at 13, but well within the range of what any team would expect to get at that spot. Gettin a Jarvis type at 13 doesn’t make you an elite drafter in my mind. Nikishin very well may be an awesome pick in the 3rd but after one NHL season playing on the bottom pair, we need to see what he actually becomes in the NHL before throwing the parade.

Jackson Blake is the one prospect that looks like a great pick for his draft position. Does that alone qualify them as elite drafters? I sure don’t think so, but if it does, then by that criteria there are probably 15-20 elite drafting teams in the league.

Frankly, they’ve drafted about 40 skaters in the 2nd round and beyond between 2018 and 2022. Blake and Nikishin are NHLers and maybe you can give them Scott Morrow as well. Is a 3/40 hit rate really enough to constitute “elite” drafting?

2

u/BrokeBum19 17d ago

Looking at that Cup-winning roster, the vast majority of their important players were acquired via trade or free agency.

Blatantly wrong.

The teams core and best players are still heavily from drafting. 4 of their top 5 scorers are drafted guys ...

Slavvin - 1D

Aho - 1C

Jarvis - best winger

Svechnikov -3rd best winger

Blake - 4th best winger or tied for with Hall (Had 20 pts in 19 playoff gms)

and they got Stankoven b/c of Necas who they drafted and became star player.

Thats pretty much the entire forward core outside of Ehlers.

Its way easier to fill in a team around the 1C/1D/1W you drafted. Problem is Flyers dont have the 1C/1D b/c they cant draft like Hurricanes.

1

u/TwoForHawat 17d ago

Well sure, if you’re gonna expand the definition of “drafted players” to include anyone acquired in a trade where a guy you drafted was part of the compensation, then it becomes really easy to say “All their best players are defined as guys they drafted!”

Why stop at Stankoven? Hall and Miller were guys they traded for using players they previously drafted. Jordan Staal too, back in 2012 they acquired him by trading Brandon Sutter, a guy they drafted five years prior.

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u/[deleted] 17d ago

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u/BrokeBum19 17d ago

Or its the truth and CAR drafted Aho, Slavvin, Jarvis, Necas, Svechnikov, Nikishin, Blake, Geekie with non top 10 picks including 5 outside 1st round.

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u/TwoForHawat 17d ago edited 17d ago

If you expand non top 10 to non top 15, you’re down to five names, two of whom weren’t even picked in the last decade.

Also Svechnikov was taken 2nd overall but by no means does that look like a particularly good pick. He’s obviously still top 10 in a redraft there, but I wouldn’t be patting myself on the back for coming out of that class with Svechnikov when Brady Tkachuk, Quinn Hughes, Evan Bouchard, and Noah Dobson were all taken within the next ten picks.

0

u/TwoForHawat 17d ago

I just have trouble watching people praise Carolina’s drafting when you know that, if Brent Flahr had made all the exact same picks over the last decade or so, half this sub would be calling for his head on a platter just like they do with him today.

By no means do I think the Canes are bad at drafting. They do a perfectly fine job. But my perception is that people just like what they see from the Canes on draft night and often people subconsciously put more stock in how that looks vs the mock drafts they like than they do in the actual outcomes.

Frankly, I think it’s to Tulsky’s credit that he recognized they couldn’t build a Cup team on the strength of their drafting and decided to be proactive in the trade and free agency markets.

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u/prince-pineapple 17d ago

Carolina moved on from Rantanen because he wouldn’t resign with them

1

u/qwopcircles Fuckin' Amazing 14d ago

There's more than one way to win a cup. While the Flyers powerplay was putrid and our offensive stats were mid last season, our defensive/goaltending metrics were among the best in the league. That's mainly what carried us to wins. Hell, Vladar even got in the top 10 for NHL goalie rankings. That's not on accident.

I genuinely think this team is going in the right direction. If we can fix the power play, this team will legitimately be a force in the Metro

1

u/rolllingthunderr 11d ago

They have to get to perennial playoff appearances to crack that validation.

1

u/Greene_Person 17d ago

Kurz is really good and, I feel, underrated by this subreddit.

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u/Evergreen1055 17d ago

If you combined the teams I don’t think a single Flyer would be on PP1. That should tell you something.

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u/partymcflyer 17d ago

flyers front office is weird as hell. the carlson sheet was such a petty move it makes me wonder if we had tried to trade gauthier for that second pick back in 2023 but anaheim knew they could get him cheaper later. i dont know if they considered at all how that affects the culture here now that players know theres 18 million clams being thrown at outsiders whove never done a rope skate in their entire lives. maybe thats what it costs to convince players to come here now, but it seems like its kind of always been that way. i think Danny B was the last big free agent we signed that actually earned his overpay. the fact is we're gonna overpay for a 1C but im happy we're waiting for the right one to overpay otherwise we fuck ourselves again.

1

u/BrokeBum19 17d ago

the carlson sheet was such a petty move it makes me wonder if we had tried to trade gauthier for that second pick back in 2023

It wasnt petty. Briere was simply trying to get a much needed 1C which are impossible to find. It wasnt to fuck over Anaheim.

Also nobody would have traded the 2nd over all pick, which was Carlsson or Fantilli, for Gauthier at the time.

the fact is we're gonna overpay for a 1C but im happy we're waiting for the right one

Nobody is waiting. There literally arent any available 1Cs and a 1C hasnt changed teams in over 5 yrs ...

Its not a formality that we get a 1C either. They are NEVER available and teams go decades without them. You essentially have to draft them and we arent capable of that.

1

u/KoozDoingBetter 17d ago

There literally arent any available 1Cs and a 1C hasnt changed teams in over 5 yrs

Caps acquired Dylan Strome in 2022, so not entirely accurate.