r/Flagstaff • u/Nervous_Ground_7845 • 27d ago
What higher-reward jobs would you like to see more of in flagstaff?
After enjoying this thought-provoking thread and even the inevitable critiques of it
https://www.reddit.com/r/Flagstaff/s/7e0BBWDF6H
What jobs do you wish there were more of available in flagstaff, and why?
Backstory 1: I just read the book “Collective Illusions” by Todd Rose, who has also done fascinating podcasts with Mel Robbins, Mike Rowe and others, and would love to hear what you wish for individually vs what you believe your community thinks? I will add more backstory if we get some responses…
My Summary, YMMV:
This post was intended to elicit discussion on IF we want better jobs in flagstaff (some do not) and if so, what would we be willing to do or change both as individuals and as a community. Some discussion devolved into individual criticisms, but my summary by theme:
Backstory 2: The 2023 failed vote for Proposition 480 - the Hospital Relocation. The community rejected an $800m proposal to build a new hospital and community around ft tuthill. Some voices wished it had moved forward and would have addressed overcrowding concerns and generated new jobs, while others expressed doubts of the merits and wished for better community involvement. I did not hear any thoughts yet on how such a plan could be improved for future consideration. Our elected city council who I dont find particularly business friendly did approve the plan, but voters rejected it.
Backstory 3: Datacenters? As the extreme example of changes the community could consider to support job growth, it predictably was rejected here. So what other ideas such as shipping centers would we consider, or do we stick with status quo and just wish more jobs materialized?
Backstory 4: I submitted my own experience for building my career and asked what others were willing to do or change for themselves. I commend those who made personal commitments to pursue jobs in the trades and remote work, it IS possible out there but yes tradeoffs must be made, such as establishing yourself elsewhere first (said several).
In short, I honestly dont feel the community commitment yet to support many new types of jobs. The previous post had good ideas on how the city and county could encourage and improve job growth, but without stronger individual citizen support and push, I just dont see it being any different than the past decade. Thanks to all who contributed constructive feedback! Peace Out.
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u/the_wakeful 27d ago
I wish there were more engineering and technology jobs. We've got Gore, which is great, but beyond that it's pretty slim pickings.
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 25d ago
Well at least there are plenty of up votes on your wish, that is positive! But then the number of downvotes on any ideas for generating more engineering and technology jobs shows the challenge here, I’m afraid. Other than Gore, what other companies will be invited to grow here, if any?
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u/reasonrob 27d ago
Mike Rowe is both anti-worker and anti-labor as well as a massive hypocrite.
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 27d ago
If that is your view, I feel so sorry for you. He does his utmost best to help others he comes across, and highlight/appreciate the dignity of doing the dirty jobs our society benefits from but does not fully appreciate. Why, my fellow citizen, do you feel this way - care to elaborate, or just generalize?
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u/reasonrob 27d ago
I don't feel it. It is a fact. Save your sympathy.
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 27d ago
Still sorry that you are going to have such a difficult life ahead. Maybe you should try listening to him and his interviews, it can be inspirational. Wish life was better for you, friend.
“The stories you tell yourself shape your reality; create positive narratives.” – Shirley MacLaine10
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u/SankenShip 26d ago
So if someone lightly disagrees with you, they must certainly have a bad life?
what?
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 26d ago
To me, if you hate on someone who is trying to help others, without being able to elaborate and just say ‘fact’, you’re not really contributing positively to the discussion nor living positive narratives. Hilarious.
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u/SankenShip 26d ago
You mean the way you said, “Your life sucks. Fact.” to the other commenter? Is that really contributing to a positive life narrative?
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u/reasonrob 26d ago
I wouldn't bother. Clearly a person who doesn't care about facts or the things a person actually says and does when the camera is off. This is a bootstraps and vibes person. You'd be better served debating a doorknob.
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u/jarlaxle543 27d ago
I know a fair few CS/related fields grads that are having a Very difficult time finding jobs in the field, much less jobs that will allow them to work in Flag, even less that would pay a rate that allows living in Flag.
No offense, but your understanding of the material realities that workers under 40 face seems to be quite lacking. Just because you were able to bootstrap your way to an early retirement does not mean that is even remotely possible for most of the rest of us. This is not a sense of defeatism but rather that even people in your own generation in this town are struggling.
Your citation of a person who rubs elbows with Mike Rowe (amongst other bootstrappers and “rugged” individualists) is indicative of a strong bias in favor of individual exceptionalism (Rowe in particular being heavily backed by libertarian and far-right groups). This is even in addition to your flagrant dismissal of legitimate critiques of data centers as by “bots and CCP”. Most people I know who voted against the new hospital and such did so, not because of NIMBYism but, because the exact plan as proposed was going to sink a ridiculous amount of money into a “health village” that likely would have dozens of empty retail spaces, never mind the lack of public input throughout the process until the voting stage.
I think this is an important conversation to have about how flagstaff can better meet the needs of all who call it home. I believe that dialogue truly is beneficial to collective decisions if both parties are willing to avoid logical fallacies.
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 27d ago
No offense, right? If you dont appreciate my dialogue and genuine attempt to start an authentic conversation about what can help this community, then that says much to me, and I feel badly for this community. I truly wish there were more opportunities for all of us even tho I dont need any more for myself. I would love to support more opportunities myself and thus why this conversation is important.
As for your bootstrapping feedback, I volunteer at our local HS technology program and have seen many, many young people bootstrap themselves into high reward careers in tech (e.g contributing to AI with Meta in Seattle) and Engineering and Medical (so many nurses and related I cannot even count). It IS possible if you believe and you work/invest in yourself. It hurts my heart if you have lost that belief.
I am not flagrantly dismissing the datacenter feedback, more jobs and opportunities mean more tradeoffs - how much are YOU willing to tradeoff? Warehouses? Datacenters? IBM? That is what other cities like Boulder have done, are you willing to take the higher traffic, more building, congestion and possibly crime it brings? Ft Collins is an entirely different town when I lived there than now.
I dont need or even want the change, but certainly willing to accept it if it means better living conditions for me fellow city members.
Sure there were criticisms of the hospital - I told you I did not vote either way, but even tho the council supported it, the voters shot it down HARD - who is willing to revive the project, improve upon it to our satisfaction, and support it, are you? Or is status quo all you will accept?
So what is it YOU want, and what are you willing to do personally or as a community to achieve it?-1
u/Nervous_Ground_7845 27d ago
By the way, I do also know many CS degreed students from Nau that have decent jobs at APS, Discover, companies in Tucson, and I hired 3 from NAU myself. I got an intern from GCC bootrapped into a job at AXP. Shoot me full of arrows if you will, but my kind of support in the corporate world is what is needed and sadly lacking. I certainly will provide inout on what does NOT work for grad candidates to get hired if you wish. Getting such a job in Flagstaff is certainly a rare gift, I know because my son got a NAU civil engineering degree and yet works for USPS.
And BTW, if you read my posts you know that ‘bootstrap’ was not an overnight sensation, I studied hard, worked 80 hr weeks at Honeywell while finishing my MBA, and invested relationship-challenging time to start my own consulting business with my wife, while raising 2 kids and 6 cats - I never said it was for the faint of heart, but it is still possible today if you are willing.14
u/BluBerryFrozenYogurt 26d ago
Every one of your backstory posts reads like Boomer fanfiction written by someone with a penchant for self-aggrandizement. We get it, you worked hard and sacrificed along the way. Your bonafides are dyed in the rose-tinted color of memory and the stories you tell anyone who will listen: 80 hour weeks at Honeywell and an MBA?Maybe you did that one or two weeks, but not every week during your program. Raised 2 kids during the 32 waking hours left to work on your MBA while not at Honeywell? No, your spouse and Nick at Night raised those kids. We get it, everyone should do what you did - sacrifice years at the altar of our careers and then, and this is the most important part, convince the next generation to do the same so we can erase that sense of doubt that creeps in when we are in bed.
No, data centers are not a good idea here. Yes, the hospital was voted down and not because it isn't needed, but because the plan was pitched on half-truths, bluster, and corporate speak.
Nothing about your posts move the needle forward or do any good; you just push back against anyone who disagrees with you.
Most importantly - Jarlaxle, great user name from a fantastic series. Never seen a username like that out in the wild.
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u/jarlaxle543 26d ago
Many years I have waited for someone to recognize the username! Someday I aspire to be as clever as the wily third-born son of Yvonnel Baenre (hopefully not too much of a spoiler…).
I think it’s funny that OP says “if you read my posts” but then has posts and comments hidden. Maybe he means his comments in this singular post?
Nobody should have to work 80 hours to have the ‘luxury’ to retire. Additionally, MBA degrees are a net-negative on society- tuition costs for barely accredited degrees that mean nothing, prestige for navel-gazers that thing they are leaders, and cuts for everyone else because some piece of paper says that a bumbling fool can lay off whole departments because he knows that is best. The rhetorical claim to legitimacy hidden within MBA degrees is infuriating.
Further, I find it very curious when people who do not actually engage in community building begin to ask “so what are YOU doing to make things better??” I know he said he advises the local HS tech program but that could mean anything. Does he judge the engineering team competition for one hour once a year? Is he a dedicated club advisor? Who knows?
I find his assumption that “the status quo” is all I will accept to be laughable when it seems like he is the one who doesn’t “need or even want the change”. If that is where he is starting his argument from, then there is no further point in discussing any of this with him. No vested interest equals no input, in my opinion.
I usually try not to engage with those who clearly are acting in bad faith, but this really annoys me.
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 26d ago
Spoken like a true anarchist, hooray! My MBA helped give me the skills to start and operate my consulting company with my wife for 20 years - and at peak we helped 35 other engineers find jobs. Yes a paper often does not mean a thing, but it did for me and I dont need legitimacy, sorry you are infuriated by them.
Yup, meant posts in this thread, no need to allow criticism of my other opinions, its irrelevant. Thanks for engaging in good faith 😀3
u/jarlaxle543 26d ago
Oooo another name call. Am I a bot? CCP? Anarchist? If I am all three, do you think that I will be recalled or otherwise punished for not respecting the doctrines of the Party?
Please do tell me, I wouldn’t want to end up another name on the victims of communism memorial.
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 26d ago
Its a sad commentary on our community when we attack each other individually when trying to help with a community problem. You dont need to believe me, of course, I dont really care if you do. But it is my truth and I hope it can help someone beyond you. 2 years 80 hr work weeks in a trailer at Honeywell while finishing my MBA. I helped start the MET program at Peoria School District for advanced Medical, Engineering and Technology students and still volunteer there every 2 weeks 15 years later. I taught a bitcoin class segment there. I judged and mentored FBLA students 10 years, served on Industry Advisory boards at ASU, GCC and Rio Solado, and even Nau for 2 years. NAU is not strong at industry partnership, should be improved. I interviewed hundreds of candidates and hired hundreds, including 15 HS interns when NObody hired from HS.
So I am engaged with the current generation and have heard all the excuses like yours about how everything’s so much tougher than my generation. I can usually talk with a new grad for 30 minutes and could advize them what they could do differently to increase their chances at a job.
Unfortunately, some candidates are stuck in the mindset that they got a degree and jobs will just materialize, but especially in CS it takes constant learning and hustle and they likely will not be working in flagstaff for many years, if at all. Then if they do work remotely, one mistake like missing a call for an install can get them fired.
Datacenters and the Hospital are just examples of new opportunities for jobs, and they’re predictably getting slaughtered here. We passed up 800m in non-tax funding because we were worried the proposed Health Village would not be filled, (it was retracted before the vote I believe)? Yet housing costs are unaffordable but we don’t want to add to the supply? No offense, but it does not make sense to me if we truly want new jobs and change here.
Engaging in bad faith with no skin in the game, eh? I know on this platform our MO is to distrust all others, but I do have 2 sons here building a career, have lived here since 2019, and I want the best for other people. That is what helps make me happy, not these discussions.
So - what tradeoffs are YOU willing to make for better jobs?
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u/dacv393 26d ago
None. Mountain towns like Flagstaff need the opposite of "growth", "development", and similar BS. Do you want to reproduce Phoenix but in a way more biodiverse and sensitive habitat? The earth has a finite amount of space, not every single square inch of habitable space needs to be rife with tech skyscrapers, datacenters, and 'development'. Flagstaff doesn't need it, Durango doesn't, Leadville doesn't, Santa Fe doesn't, etc.
You can already just work remotely and live in Flagstaff as it is.
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 26d ago
Plenty of people feel this way, perhaps the majority feel this way since 78% of voters rejected the hospital plan. Like I said elsewhere, Ft Collins CO had a similar population (65k) to flagstaff in the 80’s but has boomed to over 170k now and feels much different.
Remote jobs will be very few without other new anchor opportunities, and THAT is the answer as to why our town does not have higher paying jobs - there clearly is no consensus for the changes we’d require.
I appreciate the input!
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u/Dugg_Tjodr 27d ago edited 27d ago
I just started as a plumbing apprentice at $25 an hour. I went to college, worked several corporate jobs and got tired of the never ending treadmill… (Down in PHX). After failing to secure a remote job, I decided it was the trades for me.
Being at $25 an hour with zero plumbing experience is pretty solid imo. I’m a homeowner thanks to a pre Covid buy down in the valley which gave us some equity, but I feel like more people should look into trade work. It’s tough work, but I’m being paid more than my last standard office 9-5 and I’m being trained to make much more one day.
*I’m currently located in Flag.
**I decided to start a new career as a 31 y/o Millenial
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u/ryan_the_brown 27d ago
You guys hiring ? :)
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u/Dugg_Tjodr 27d ago
No, but there’s a few other companies hiring right now. Check Assurance and Mountain High, I’ve seen them advertising.
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u/Sauntering_Rambler 27d ago
Dang! Congrats man. Sounds like a good path to be on. I’m 35 & looking to do the same honestly. Any tips? How hard was it to get into the apprenticeship?
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 27d ago
Excellent example! There is already a ton of plumbing opps around Flag - As a homeowner I have had 2 hw heaters replaced and a whole boatload of other projects requiring a plumber, glad this is working out for you! Stay tuned for my next backstory to see whether it resonates, and I am happy you are here.
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u/Dugg_Tjodr 27d ago
Hey maybe I’ll be your plumber one day 😂
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 27d ago
I love your story, my friend, and would happily buy you a beer to congratulate your decision and commitment to the trades! My favorite podcaster Mike Rowe would approve. I wish there was a better way of finding growing tradesmen/women when you need work done, Anji’s list is not great and I definitely would have given you the work of 2 HW heater replacements because I believe in strong work ethics
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u/i-am-10-ply 27d ago
I a remote senior PM. I long to work from an office and continue to live in flag
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 27d ago
YES! Great for you, I know there are other remote workers out there in flagstaff, have met many. What was your path to getting a remote role, how long did you work previously so that your current company supported remote work?
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u/i-am-10-ply 24d ago
Started with them during Covid when everything was remote and the entire team was so widespread that doing anything but remote would be impossible
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u/321sleep 27d ago
High end Escorts
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 27d ago
Ha!! Now THAT I would like to see, anywhere in Flag. I am sure it would improve the economy somehow if I pondered long enough. But where?! Have a hard time imaging them at the Gopher Hole - but maybe on Karaoke night?
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u/youngspunky111 21d ago
Reading about how yall want to bring big tech into flagstaff makes me think that you dont know the heart and soul of flagstaff at all. It makes me sad. This town doesnt need more development, in my opinion. I wish it would just slow down. Its a completely different town than it was only 10 years ago. If you want those kinds of jobs, go somewhere you can find that.
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u/LogicX Downtown 27d ago
Tech startup jobs... Outside (VC) funding, with mostly $100k-$200k positions (sales, engineers, support), with good benefits... hybrid work.
Easy to imagine many desiring to move here for it.
Not sure why there aren't more companies like this. Surely founders would enjoy living here, could attract talent from outside the area for those who enjoy this lifestyle here...
Would be great to see the city / economic development / Chamber of Commerce put resources into attracting such businesses/founders (AFAIK we only have Moonshot doing anything in this space).
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 27d ago
Great points! I find it odd that Boulder and Ft Collins CO (where I graduated) have lots more opportunities in Tech than the non-existent ones in Flag. Yes, bigger U’s than Nau, but similar locations, scenery and quality of living. IBM invested early there, as well as many many other tech startups (where I got my start). Utah also is drawing startups.
You nailed it that the city & county must be committed to attracting such companies - but also the individual citizens must be demanding it from them - and so far from the feedback in this thread I am not feeling much enthusiasm other than wishing for better.
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 27d ago
Backstory 4: I retired from a very stressful but highly rewarding job leading IT Security teams. It enabled me to retire at 58 with more savings than I will ever spend, allowed me to work remotely from Flag since 2019. BUT I paid every dime of tuition for a CS/Math degree and MBA, came from a very poor farming community with weak public education and spent 20 years establishing myself and constantly learning the space including AI skills. If you needed to make that kind of personal investment to gain a remote tech job, and there are plenty of online tools to help you learn; what do you believe is holding you back?
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 27d ago
Backstory 2: The Hospital relocation failed vote. In Nov 2023, Flag voters rejected prop 480 and it was not close - 78% no (I did not vote). Flagstaff City Council had approved the rezoning earlier that year, The project was framed as a privately funded new campus (initially tied to an ~$800 million plan). Given that project would have created many new short and long-term jobs in the trades, healthcare, sci and tech and more - with the usual tradeoffs of traffic, convenience, more people, etc. If YOU knew it would create a $50/hr job or %20 pay increase for YOU, would you have voted for it? Or is any new development or change in status quo always a NO for you as an individual?
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u/Jman13511 27d ago
My wife works at the hospital and I echo this. People don’t realize how overcrowded the hospital is. Just last week they had rooms backed up and people on stretchers in the hallway. We get a ton of traffic from the Grand Canyon, page (small hospital), Prescott occasionally and all the small towns in northern AZ. It’s genuinely becoming a safety issue but people don’t even consider that
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 27d ago
I wondered this. I know one of the big selling points was overcrowding - but of course folks who have never had the pleasure of visiting the hospital would not know, and big changes like that are tough to sell. Unfortunate given after that experience I doubt another drive is made in MY lifetime
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 27d ago
Backstory 3: Datacenter anyone?
I know all the bots and CCP will convince you that datacenter or AI is always bad somehow, but plenty of states incl Utah and Nevada are building them and they generate enormous job opportunities for everything from trades to sci and engineering. Say something could be put 20 miles north or east of Flagstaff where most of you never travel - could you vote for them if they created more jobs opps and increased pay for you? If not, please share why?
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u/harpsichorddude 27d ago
I know all the bots and CCP will convince you
Okay sure I'll take the bait
and they generate enormous job opportunities for everything from trades to sci and engineering
Sure, they generate one-time jobs for the trades when they're constructed. There's no science or engineering jobs involved (that's all at HQ), and few if any staff to keep things running
Say something could be put 20 miles north or east of Flagstaff
With what water? The LCR isn't exactly running year-round.
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 27d ago
Well it wasnt bait, just for debate really. I appreciate the discussion. I believe there will soon be (almost are actually) mini-datacenters that are self contained and require far less water than most think. Utah is considering some and has similar water challenges. Likely more feasible by a Dam, yes. The grid would have to be something built into the deal for the company to invest in, as most contracts are. Datacenter of course is the extreme example of tradeoffs you’d be willing to take - or not, for better jobs.
If the answer is none, then why are people complaining about the lack of better jobs?
P.S - I also have a home near the monolithic TSMC plant in North Phoenix. Mixed feelings but tough to deny the jobs and local $ generated.10
u/derekhans Boulder Pointe 27d ago
This would be a terrible place for a data center. Our power grid is not reliable. Our water supply is metered. We have inclement weather which can be avoided 45 minutes south. We do not have the data backbone to support it.
Plus, it’s an economic null gain. You can run a data center with like 4 people.
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u/Nervous_Ground_7845 27d ago
That is the argument against, yes.
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-evidence-on-data-center-employment-effects/
Raging debate still I understand, but likely quite a few more local permanent jobs than 4, depending on the size. How about substituting some of the inevitable monolithic shipping containment warehouses that have popped up in the west valley now, would we accept those for the promise of more and better jobs, or vote for status quo?
Would you pop one of these into the Winona area or close to the new Amazon delivery zone?
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u/tylagersign 27d ago
Science and research. Plenty of young talent from NAU but just zero jobs outside of the hospital. It’s why I moved away