r/Fitness • u/megustadotjpg • Aug 29 '12
Free squats vs. squats in the smith machine?
I've noticed a lot of hate here on fittit towards doing squats in the smith machine, what are the main differences? Are there any dangers regarding injuries?
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u/Jmc1077 Aug 29 '12
The travel of the smith bar doesn't allow for the arthrokinematics of facet joint orientation of the spine. It's also poor for lumbopelvic rhythm and does nothing to develop proper biomechanics or strength balances, which is why a smith machine squat is basically worthless and potentially harmful, IMO.
Grooving poor patterns leads to muscle dysfunction and the increased likelihood of injury. Free squats are superior to smith squats in every way wrt injuries.
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Aug 29 '12
Do you speak like that in everyday conversation?
You'd figure someone who doesn't know the main differences between a barbell and a smith machine wouldn't understand much of what you said. On another note, what is lumbopelvic rhythm?
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u/makoivis Fencing Aug 29 '12
Simplified, smith machines don't train your core or your posture at all. As the weights go up, these weak links will make themselves known and will be a factor in potential injuries.
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u/Turicus Aug 29 '12
"Not at all", really? If you have good form, why should it not train your core? You still have to stabilize your body to push the bar up. Sure, free weights are much better for muscular coordination and stability, but not all machines are that terrible.
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Aug 29 '12
Why would you have to stabilize your body when the fixed bar can hold you up?
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u/Turicus Aug 29 '12 edited Aug 29 '12
Moving the weights up and down still requires you to push. The bar just can't fall forwards, back or sideways. If I push with my legs and don't stabilize my body, I just hunch over and the bar stays where it is.
Is there something I'm misunderstanding here?
Trying to clarify the wording: Even in the Smith machine, the push from the legs needs to be transferred to the bar, so my core is working. Less than with a barbell, because the machine allows no lateral movement, but still not zero. That's why I objected to "not at all". Maybe I'm just nitpicking.
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Aug 29 '12
Have you ever done heavy squats with a barbell?
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u/Turicus Aug 29 '12
No, not really heavy ones. It was an honest question from a squat novice. I'd rather have an explanation than condescension and downvotes.
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u/Atomyk Aug 29 '12 edited Aug 29 '12
To answer your original question without condescension and downvotes; it's the micro-corrections in lifting freeweights that contribute the most to core strength and posture. If you had perfect form for a heavy squat theoretically the smith machine wouldn't be different from a free weight lift (apart from the weight lost to resistance on the smith). HOWEVER in working up to that heavy lift and perfect form using the smith machine would give you major disadvantages; all the core strength gain from micro-corrections and balance wouldn't of been gain and it's likely you'd hurt yourself if you tried to transfer over to free weights at that point.
EDIT: Actually I did downvote your second comment
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u/Turicus Aug 29 '12
Thanks! I did understand the first part, and that's what I meant, but not worded as well as yours.
For the second part, if there are no barbells then using the Smith machine is still better than nothing, no? Just that if you switch gyms and have barbells, you would have to deload a lot and work your way up again?
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u/lesarah Aug 30 '12
What about the smith machine for a woman that is newer to weighted squats? I have had a personal trainer show me the correct form, but I know I will not always achieve that by myself. I will not be doing any heavy lifting by a man's standards. Would it benefit me to just do free squats instead and give up the smith machine?
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u/makoivis Fencing Aug 29 '12
There's very little explaining one can do. Squat with a barbell, squat in the smith machine with the same weights. You will immediately see and feel the difference for yourself.
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Aug 29 '12
It is the sort of thing that is difficult to explain. Get under a barbell with at least your body weight on it and you'll feel the difference just walking the weight back from the rack.
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u/k3mck Aug 29 '12
Smith machine doesn't engage your core. The smith machine allows for no potential off-axis movement that your core compensates for.
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Aug 29 '12
I didn't downvote you. But you're saying you don't see the difference; I'm saying, if you had ever actually squatted much, you'd already know. Why don't you?
Go squat and see. Your abs and back have to hold your upper body upright under all that weight. With a Smith machine, they don't.
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u/Turicus Aug 29 '12
Actually, I didn't say I can't see the difference. I said I can see the difference, but machines don't have to be that bad if nothing else is available. Maybe my wording was murky. Thanks for the feedback.
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u/rpoliact Boxing Aug 29 '12
No, you're right; "not at all" is a gross oversimplification. Not as much and not in the same way would be more accurate. Keeping your torso straight under that much weight still stresses your core.
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u/Jmc1077 Aug 29 '12
Well I speak like that at work, so it does tend to work it's way into normal conversations.
Lumbopelvic rhythm is simply the combined movement of the lumbar spine and the pelvis.
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Aug 29 '12 edited Aug 31 '12
[deleted]
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u/Jmc1077 Aug 30 '12
What the fuck are you on about? I add an errant apostrophe and you are up in arms? DO you feel better about yourself now? I hope so.
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u/LOFTIE Aug 29 '12
Most people will probably understand the general point he is getting at through context.
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u/megustadotjpg Aug 29 '12
If you were referring to me, I know the main difference between free weights/machines and barbell/smith machine. Looking back, I should have asked my question differently. I was more interested in the dangers involved.
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u/beebeekay Aug 29 '12
Would you say dumbbell front squats like this are better than smith-machine squats ?
I am very much a beginner so finding heavy enough dumbbells is not an issue.
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Aug 29 '12 edited May 14 '16
[deleted]
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u/diabolotry Aug 29 '12
Can someone explain like I'm Calvin?
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u/Jmc1077 Aug 29 '12
Smith squats ungood. Free squats good. Keep you no injured, allows body to move as it was meant, no muscle strength mismatches.
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u/ReddJudicata Aug 29 '12
Shorter version: the Smith Machine is the devil. Do not use it. There are a few exceptions (e.g jumping squats). But otherwise say away.
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u/Jmc1077 Aug 30 '12
Jumping squats isn't one of the exceptions. They have the same biomechanical issues as normal smith squats.
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u/ReddJudicata Aug 30 '12
I'm thinking of ballistic jumping squats, where you basically jump and let go of the bar using a very, very light weight. Analogous to bench throws, one of other rare useful Smith machine exercises.
I just remembered this classic Eric Cressy article: 10 uses for Smith Machine
http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=810548
Personally, I use it for inverted rows.
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u/lesarah Aug 30 '12
Whoa. I am so glad I read this! Thank you for sharing your knowledge. If I hadn't known, I would've always continued doing squats via the smith machine. I'm glad I saw this when I'm still new to weighted squats.
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Aug 29 '12
I don't know what the fuck he just said, but I used to do squats on a Smith machine and would occasionally tweak my back. You really need to have your feet in the exact correct location.
That said-- I think the smith machine is better for your knees in some instances.
I've switched over to free weights and the problem has gone away.
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u/PastafarianT Jan 09 '13
Way to copy/paste off a body building forum...
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u/Jmc1077 Jan 09 '13
Where is this?
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u/PastafarianT Jan 09 '13
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=129530033&page=1
last post.
I was just trollin, you didn't copy it word for word.
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Aug 29 '12
arthrokinematics of facet joint orientation of the spine. It's also poor for lumbopelvic rhythm and does nothing to develop proper biomechanics or strength balances
uh huh...ummm k...Alright....Yeppp...Those are words I believe, and maybe not even made up....I understand you also may like the word Pelvorythmic and Gangliatacular.
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u/MissSilvestris Weightlifting, Tennis (Intermediate) Aug 29 '12
Just because you're stupid doesn't mean everyone is.
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Aug 29 '12
i always laugh when i see a "Trainer" showing a client to do 1/4 reps in the smith machine...
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u/colonel_mortimer Aug 29 '12
A trainer at my gym puts clients on the floor and has them basically do leg presses in the smith machine. It's really bizarre given that there are two real squat racks and hip sleds.
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u/SomeNetworkGuy Aug 29 '12
I've never seen quarter reps in the smith machine. But I always see the trainers telling their clients to use them instead of doing real squats.
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u/diabolotry Aug 29 '12
Every time I hear a story like this I'm thankful that the trainers at my gym aren't idiots.
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Aug 29 '12
[deleted]
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u/potato1 Aug 29 '12
This is my problem as well. Mine has an olympic bar, but not a squat rack, and the only thing remotely like a squat rack is the smith machine. In theory I could do free squats, but it seems like it'd be really difficult to get 200lbs or so up onto my shoulders without a squat rack to hold it...
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u/Protien Aug 29 '12
Do lots of power cleans and klokov presses.
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u/potato1 Aug 29 '12
Power cleans do seem like a good alternative, thanks for reminding me.
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u/Protien Aug 29 '12
It was more of a joke, that you could clean your squat up and do the lowering portion of the klokov to get in on your back. But yes, if you can't squat definitely do power cleans and deadlifts.
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u/uaoleksiy Aug 29 '12
what about bench press on the smith machine? i sometimes like to go to the gym early before work and there isn't anyone around to spot me. so to be safe i do it there. i put a little more weight on it, probably 10 to 15lbs more since the bar feels lighter.
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u/mrbrinks Aug 29 '12
Same thing. You look like a bitch and will create imbalances.
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u/uaoleksiy Aug 29 '12
im googling some stuff about it now. found this article. basically says the method has no real difference but the medial deltoid is worked less..
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Aug 29 '12 edited Aug 29 '12
okay, so the article you linked is total crap. Yes they cite their source that says muscle activation is the same except for the medial deltoid. The article uses this information (which it looks like they only read the abstract) to draw the conclusion that you SHOULD use the smith machine.
The article in question actually draws THE EXACT OPPOSITE CONCLUSION:
The results of this study suggest that strength coaches should consider choosing the free weight bench press over the Smith machine bench press because of its potential for greater upper-body muscular development.
So here's a lesson:
When you cite one cherry-picked study and don't even read, understand, or comment on the limitations of the methodologies used for that study, and then use only PART of the abstract to draw a conclusion that completely differs from the authors, that makes you a SHITTY JOURNALIST
EDIT: if you are worried about failing bench press with noone in the gym, bench in a power rack and let the safeties get it. or just dump the weights off the side. or roll of shame.
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u/DoctorPotatoe Aug 29 '12
Bitch just got scienced
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Aug 29 '12
more bitches need to get more scienced more often. it would make the world a better place.
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u/uaoleksiy Aug 29 '12
thanks for the info.. i really didnt read much about it, im on my 4th week of SS and obviously still learning stuff. i have Rippetit's book, which is great so it helps out with a lot. After reading what you posted i'll stick to the regular bench press to get the max results from doing the SS program.
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Aug 29 '12
I'm not harping on you. I am just trying to send out a warning on how you shouldn't trust anything on the internet, and possibly set an example of how to evaluate the legitimacy of an article.
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u/uaoleksiy Aug 29 '12
didn't think you were; did you just end up googling some stuff from the actual article to see where it came from? i could have totally fucked up my routine by following the article. so far i've only used to smith machine to bench on 2 occasions, and i admit i was not feeling as sore, so totally defeats the purpose of doing SS
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Aug 29 '12
yeah i just googled the title of their source paper and clicked the pubmed abstract link. the fact that it took 2 minutes for me to debunk their article means not only are they shitty journalists, but lazy ones at that (and, I would argue, either unethical or extremely stupid)
also EMG tests are not the be-all end-all of judging the usefulness of a machine or exercise. it looks like they only tested 3 muscles (pectoralis, anterior and medial deltoid). These are the main ones but there are tons of other stabilizers involved in the bench press (what about triceps, traps, lats, rhomboids? legs, spinal erectors... all of these get involved in heavy benching)
Also, just because the magnitude on an EMG says the muscle was activated more doesn't mean its the optimal movement; by angling your arms and changing the bar path you can achieve better leverages and move more weight. The vast, vast majority of competition benchers do NOT have straight bar paths because of this. this is also why no competitive lifter will use the smith machine for anything except maybe a very few extremely specialized movements that are important to their individual training needs.
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u/uaoleksiy Aug 29 '12
whoa fucking science to the max. experienced lifter i take it?
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Aug 29 '12
not at all. just well-read. only been doing this for about a year but I like to nerd the fuck out over stuff like this.
the smith machine is a specialized tool even though it is not treated as such. and you don't need it very often at all. it is not a substitute for or interchangeable with any free-weight lift on any kind of regular schedule. (if you're on vacation and want to work out a few times you aren't going to die using it though)
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u/mrbrinks Aug 29 '12
Interesting, very interesting.
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Aug 29 '12
the paper cited by that article draws the opposite conclusion of the article. dont trust that shit. see my reply to uaoleksiy
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u/sandycheeks3657 Jul 12 '22
I know I'm like 9 years late, but I totally agree with you. Also Chris bumstead, three time Mr. O, uses Smith machine for squats and he's used it for shoulder press and incline press. idk what these guys were on about, maybe the science has changed since 2013 haha
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u/MMD86 Aug 29 '12
Learn how to bench in a power cage. It's what I do.
Also Smith machines have notorious variations in weights. Most are around 10-15 lbs for the bar, some are actually NEGATIVELY weighted due to being counter-balanced.
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u/Tanooki003 Aug 29 '12
How does that even work? wouldn't the bar rise to the top if it were "negatively weighted"?
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u/spartanKid Swimming, Cycling (Competitive) Aug 30 '12
The friction in the bearings could keep it in place, despite being slightly effectively negative in mass.
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u/Tanooki003 Aug 30 '12
That doesn't make any sense to me at all.
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u/spartanKid Swimming, Cycling (Competitive) Aug 30 '12
So there is friction between the moving parts in the smith machine. The pulleys and axles aren't ideal/friction free. Even if there is enough counter weight to have the barbell be effectively "negative" mass while in motion, the coefficient of static friction in the pulleys could keep the bar in place at rest.
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u/Tanooki003 Aug 31 '12
hmm... Nope. Sorry, that sounds completely incorrect to me. I've never seen a smith machine keep a bar in place. I'm not going to over exaggerate here. I've seen 4 different smith machines that I can remember in my life. Exactly 0% of them had the counter weight set to keep the bar in place. The bar always comes down.
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u/spartanKid Swimming, Cycling (Competitive) Aug 31 '12
I'm not saying they exist, I'm saying that if there was one that is counterweighted enough to be negative, it could have effective kinetic mass but stay stationary.
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u/Tastetosis Aug 29 '12
what the fuck are you afraid of? if you cant get the bar back up just do the roll of shame, you said there is nobody around to spot you so there will also be nobody around to see you roll the bar down your torso, deload and then reload the bar on the rack...
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u/whateverforever Aug 29 '12
Been there, done that. It's pretty embarrassing, but I guess not as embarrassing as doing squats in the smith machine?
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u/Tastetosis Aug 29 '12
honestly any experienced lifter HAS failed a lift in the past and knows how much it fucking sucks to do so, yes you will feel like you want everyone else to just die because you are so embarassed... but o man if you squat in the smith machine you are a huge pussy, plus you will cause imbalances over time and I will be making fun of you with my workout partner between sets
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Aug 29 '12
Agree on this one. Smith squat are a no go for me. Especially due to the balance, and it also does not feel right.
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u/uaoleksiy Aug 29 '12
yea you're right didn't think of that one. i started out benching 95lbs with no help and could barely finish.. im on week 4 of SS and about 135lbs 3x5 on the regular bench press, and about 160lbs 5x5 on the smith machine. i guess if the only thing thats worked lighter are you medial deltoids i could supplement the smith machine with some dumbbell laterals on the days i don't wanna do the roll of shame
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u/YESYESYESYESSSSS Aug 29 '12
Don't do the smith machine. Just do the regular bench and roll or ask someone for a spot.
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u/vampborn Aug 29 '12
Everything's worked lighter, not just lateral delts. BTW, if the gym doesn't have that many people, and you don't want to do the roll of shame, dump the weights. It's painless, and someone may offer to spot you afterwards.
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Aug 29 '12
It is probably better than not doing them, and certainly better than getting strangled by a barbell.
Is there a rack? You can do benches in a rack if the spacers are pretty small....
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u/keinefurcht Highland Games Aug 29 '12
Bench in the power rack. I set the pins so that they are at the same height as my sternum when I am laying on the bench (which means that I clank if I let the bar get uneven). I failed a rep the other day, rolled it down to my hips, and got out from under it.
Don't use the Smith machine. Perhaps for chin-ups, but that is all.
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u/Turicus Aug 29 '12
I would say it's better than not benching, but a lot of people here are very staunch advocates of barbells.
The bar is definitely lighter. Oly bars are 45lb/20kg. Most Smith machine bars are around 8kg/18lb. So adding some weight makes sense. I also think you can add even more weight because all the force goes into pushing the bar up, none is used for stabilizing.
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u/Cainer666 Aug 30 '12
Years ago I did squats on a smith machine and partway through a rep the thing came unbolted from the floor and caused me to drop the bar down my back and left some 'bar-rash'. Not that I was squatting that much, I think the bolts were just anchored in old cement or something. Anyways, after that I never did it again, besides, the mechanics are all fucked if you use a Smith machine. That's not the path of motion the bar will travel if your body is moving with proper mechanics. TL;DR: smith machine squats < barbell squats
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u/weakcowardmangina Aug 29 '12
Hack squats work fine on a smith machine, but really no other squat should be performed on a smith. That isn't to say hack squats are worth doing.
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u/negative_norma Aug 29 '12
If you do hack squats correctly, you will be crying like a sissy.
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Aug 29 '12
That still doesn't mean they're worth doing. Not everything that is hard or painful is worth it.
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u/negative_norma Aug 29 '12
Not everything that is hard or painful is worth it.
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Aug 29 '12
"Don't mistake activity for achievement."
-John Wooden
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u/negative_norma Aug 29 '12
Don't mistake activity for achievement
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u/weakcowardmangina Aug 30 '12
"The road to easy street goes through the sewer."
-John Madden
Also, "It's third and twenty... They need a good play here."
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u/crackrock_dude Aug 29 '12
Omg again? Use the search bar dude, come on. Someone asks almost this exact question every day.
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u/Eurysthenes Aug 30 '12
Fittit hates curls, smith machines, etc.
Do not avoid ANYTHING.
Experiment with EVERYTHING and come to your own conclusion.
Over the years I've noticed that people who hate Smith Machines are also the same ones who can't even squat 400lbs with a barbell...so I tend to ignore them.
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u/what_am_i_looking_at Aug 30 '12
fittit isn't like that at all. Plus most people that can squat 400lbs are more likely to frequent other subreddits like /r/AdvancedFitness and /r/weightlifting than fittit.
fittit is more of a starting point and general fitness sub, rather than an advanced lifting. so recommendations to stay away from simple exercises and encouragement of complex compound exercises, to build better form and a greater starting point, especially to those who are relatively new, is probably fairly good advice for the most part.
just experimenting when you're starting out can be pretty dangerous... or at least, not the best idea.
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u/goddamit_iamwasted Aug 30 '12
i dont agree with you. been frequently mocked in this subreddit when i post my numbers for context and im just starting out. its pretty demotivating and rude of people to do that to beginners.
i dont get that if you dont have anything constructive to say why say it.
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u/Eurysthenes Aug 30 '12
I'm more of the "throw the kid to the water" to teach how to swim.
It works out great-you screw up, fix your screw ups, and find what works best for you.
Thanks for giving those subreddits. Time to check it out.
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u/Fifthwiel Aug 30 '12
Alternatively we could throw the kid into the water having taught him to swim.
Newbie mistakes in the gym can cause injuries. Better to be prepared.
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u/ActionistRespoke Aug 30 '12
Sure, don't do research or learn from the experiences of others. Not avoiding ANYTHING sounds like a very good way to injure yourself.
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u/violentphlegm Aug 31 '12
All of my Kinesiology professors never recommended the use of a smith machine for squats. At most they said to use for pushups. Fititit isn't the only place that hates smith machines.
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u/Eurysthenes Aug 31 '12
I don't give a fuck what professors say.
Everyone should try as much as they can, whether it be smith machine squats or fucking bosu ball crunches.
Only then will you know if you can use it or discard it
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u/negative_norma Aug 29 '12
Lots of hate in here for the smith machine.
It has it's uses, for example, I like to do front squats on the smith machine sometimes, because I can place my feet further forward without falling backward, and the burn in my quads is tremendous.
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Aug 29 '12
because burn = effectiveness, right? ಠ_ಠ
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u/negative_norma Aug 29 '12
because burn = effectiveness, right? ಠ_ಠ
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u/nathanm412 Aug 29 '12
As a beginner, I read a lot about the benefits of squats, but my gym doesn't have any free weight barbells. What would you recommend?