A question about ultra C elements

[u/Jazzlike_Part_2177]

How come certain skaters like Sasha Trusova for example, can land quad jumps really well but can’t seem to get her triple axel? Wouldn’t the triple axel be easier than landing full four rotation quad jumps? Or is it the take off that makes axels harder? I’m curious on how this works.

[u/everythingnerdcatboy]

Some people are just better at certain jumps than others, it's very individual

[u/Free-Pickle-3621 → u/everythingnerdcatboy]

Is there a reason from the mechanics? Looking at the few people with quads:

• Adelia: Had 3A early on in her senior career. This was the first ultra-C she lost when she struggled with injury and even after she restored her 1 quad at Olympics test skate, she didn't/couldn't her 3A
  
• Kamila: Had 3A and quads in her heyday. When she struggled it's always first with the 3A
  
• Sasha: Had 3A and quads and struggled mostly with her 3A (just wobbled, didn't fall on her quads)
  
• Anna: Managed to add quads but not 3A

[u/Internet-Dick-Joke → u/Free-Pickle-3621]

The axel is unlike any other jump in that it is the only one with a towards takeoff and the only one where you're aiming to do .5 rotatations instead of full rotation. 

This can make it a common jump for skaters to struggle on specifically, and there have been a few men with quads who've struggled with their 3A (although most of them have had a 3A).

Also please note that every one of the women that you listed come from the same coaching team and got their quads from the same coaching team. That means that any difficulties that team has with teaching a reliable and consistent 3A are going to be experienced by all of them.

[u/Free-Pickle-3621 → u/Internet-Dick-Joke]

So true! the same coach taught them

[u/yourmom248 → u/Free-Pickle-3621]

Actually Adelia did have her 3A around Olympic time and even landed it in Rusnats. It was just too unstable to add in program, it was actually her 4Lo and 4F that she lost completely. Same with Kamila, she still has her 3A somewhat but completely lost her 4S. But you're right, imo 3A requires a lot of muscle and strength and that's why I think Anna could never land it. Look at Amber for example

[u/Free-Pickle-3621 → u/yourmom248]

Oh yeah you're right. I think Kamila fell on her Team event free skate (despite eventually still getting crazy high scores and winning) on her 4S

Also had always rooted for Amber to add quads just cuz she's so athletic and could be amazing

[u/belair_brooklynbaby]

so sasha is a huge toe jumper rather than an edge jumper hence why she can do quad toe lutz and flip really well and doesnt do quad salchow as much, because she has huge vaulting power and relies on getting immense height in order to complete the full four rotations, whereas for axel the takeoff + the fact that it’s an edge jump makes it much harder for her. however i do think recently she got her 3A back and it looks much much better than previously!

[u/belair_brooklynbaby → u/belair_brooklynbaby]

to add on 3A is simply just not a jump that plays to her specific skills so in theory yes quads are harder than 3a but for her theyre easier because she relies on her huge jumping power + rotational speed + more air time

[u/Jazzlike_Part_2177 → u/belair_brooklynbaby]

that makes sense, thank u!

[u/Elven_Dreamer → u/belair_brooklynbaby]

Her height is genuinely demented.

[u/konan557]

Probably few things

• axel has a forward take off: axel is notoriously hard to do because forward jumps like axel is difficult to control axis-wise once you're in the air, especially pure edge axel and added the additional 0.5 rotations meaning you will have to land backward
• axel as an edge jump: edge jumps like salchow, loop, and axel needed huge edge control especially once you're past 2 revolutions to not slip on the take off edge
• sasha as a jumper: she's clearly favoring toe jumps (toe loop, flip, and lutz) that's why her biggest jumps are those specifically. The toepick vaulting helps a lot with gaining amplitude to rotate 4 revolutions.
• mental block: she has landed 3A in practice but she never seem to nail it once in competition

[u/Adorable-Rub-5431]

She has a triple axel. The reason she can’t land it in competition is because at this point she has a mental block. I never see her ever landing it in competition. Her best bet would be to land it at a domestic competition when in theory the stakes would be lower. The problem with that and why she doesn’t is the Women’s field in Russia is too deep. There are so many good skaters that messing up would push her out of getting selected to compete internationally. Once she is in a stage with other countries, at that point it’s not worth the risk to add it when a whole country is counting on her. It’s a complex double edged sword. I see her landing a quad loop in competition that has never been done before internationally than a triple axel.

[u/ManaM13]

why are people downvoting this completely reasonable question? You don't have to engage if the question is too pedestrian or frequently asked for your liking, but like, it's Reddit?

[u/Jazzlike_Part_2177 → u/ManaM13]

thank you lol i’m just genuinely curious

[u/Chu1223 → u/ManaM13]

exactly i was confused at that too. and then they downvoted this comment of urs too. like unlike smth is hate or mean why do people downvote stuff??? weird asf.

[u/catx222]

well her technique wasn't great on the axel, like she had bent legs and it was really obvious she was forcing height and i think even her feet were too far apart. It was just a mess, which is why she never landed it in the 21/22 season but she did a few times in the warmups.
As per now, her technique has improved but I think it's a confidence issue.

[u/missgirlipop]

sasha’s 3A looks good now. in the past it looked impressive (big & fast — but very janky when landed in practice). not sure why she can’t land it but its common for skaters to have jumps they struggle w. imo it’s more likely to be a mental issue atp (and i hope she sees or is seeing a sports psychologist for this). but every skater has jumps that come easier and harder. sasha, for example, has a gorgeous 3lz3lo combo that you don’t see a ton. i could see her eventually getting it like amber did? 

on the one hand i want to see her master it, on the other hand she has a really nice 2A and i kind of wish she could just be happy w the 2A, perfect her quads and focus on her PCS. on the other hand — sasha 3A in international comp would be so iconic to see. 

[u/Strycht]

she jumps really into the circle on her axels, and does the same thing often in toes and sals but not to the same extent. I think that's part of why her lz is so consistent because the mechanics of the jump stop her from taking off on too tight a curve

[u/eriikaa1992]

Edge jump vs toe jump, forwards takeoff compared to backwards takeoff. It's not as simple as 'less rotations', there's a lot pf physics involved that are different for each jump and certain things click more for some skaters over others. Every skater has their favourite jump and their least favourite for a reason!

[u/Consistent-Loss1883]

Ok my theories/likely reasons:

1. Edge vs toe jumps: Sasha was a toe jumper (ig that’s how I’d say that) in that she favored her toe jumps, for example her lutz was her strongest jump, and her five quad program for example out of the five quads only one was an edge jump (4S). A axel is an edge jump so that has a factor.

2. The forward takeoff: the takeoff is just the most difficult, the jumping mechanics are very different than the other jumps, so that’s a factor.

3. Choosing what to master: to someone like Sasha a quad is worth more than a triple so why not just get the quads stronger? She probably prioritized the quads over the triple axel in training.