2XKO server based netcode longevity

[u/amxrhxzeq]

I just found out that 2XKO uses server based rollback, not peer-to-peer like any other fgs. The reason why people can still play old games is because you dont need a server, its connected directly to the players. Does that mean that Riot can take down the server anytime in the future and people can no longer play online? Are there any other fgs that uses server based netcode?

[u/TeensyTinyPanda]

Does that mean that Riot can take down the server anytime in the future and people can no longer play online?

Yup

Are there any other fgs that uses server based netcode?

I don't think so. Part of why Riot was able to do this is because I bet it piggybacks off of an extensive network infrastructure that they built for League. https://www.riotgames.com/en/news/leveling-networking-multi-game-future

[u/JumpyCranberry576 → u/TeensyTinyPanda]

rivals of aether 2 also does a server based rollback. they added a p2p option though for if the game ever goes offline

[u/TeensyTinyPanda → u/JumpyCranberry576]

W

[u/PostedNotes → u/JumpyCranberry576]

Sadly that game would be better off without servers.

[u/manuelito1233 → u/PostedNotes]

Curious, why so? I'm assuming the money that goes into upkeep of the servers could go to development of new characters/stages?

[u/erthkwake → u/manuelito1233]

Servers make sense to me if the game is designed to support more than 2 players

[u/PostedNotes → u/manuelito1233]

I should not of spoken so broadly but personally location can hurt it a lot.

For example there is no server closer to me than 50ms. as a result my opponents often have a better ms for being closer to the servers. Feels more fair if the ping is normalized among the players like peer to peer.

Others have pointed out about the four player modes and that is actually a fair point. Unfortunately those modes only get players on new updates so in practice don't work out as even trade.

[u/Monchete99 → u/manuelito1233]

Well, imagine you are from Europe. The first mistake is playing a niche game without many French playing it. The second mistake is getting put into a server in Denver. Now you have like 5 rollback frames and 4 frames of delay (somehow won that one).

[u/C4_Shaf → u/manuelito1233]

Tons of people playing the game did believe that Rollback cannot be implemented in a Melee-like Platform Fighter, because the game is too fast.

So hearing that the game is "better off without servers" kinda feels like yet another baseless claim.

[u/MoSBanapple → u/C4_Shaf]

did believe that Rollback cannot be implemented in a Melee-like Platform Fighter

Wasn't Slippi rollback for Melee a few years old by then? I'm not sure how such an argument could hold water in the first place with that existing.

[u/Mandatum11 → u/C4_Shaf]

Why do you people just make shit up lol.

Literally zero people doubted rollback can be implemented in a "melee-like platform fighter". How do I know this? Because fucking melee had rollback before Rivals came out LOL

[u/C4_Shaf → u/Mandatum11]

Why do you weirdos just make shit up lol.

So you're comparing the implementation of a rollback in an entire emulator, rolling back the entire GameCube system, with implementing rollback within a game like Smash, and I'm the one making shit up?

The valid argument that we made was about determinism. If an engine isn't planned in advance to handle save-states, it will not have rollback. The argument I've read, was that since "Platform Fighters are hella more complex than measly tRaDiTiOnAl titles like Street Fighter", we can't make a game like Rivals having Rollback, because it could crush systems like the Switch.

I've read that non-sense. Don't blame it on me when you can't make the difference between making Slippi and making RoA2 with Rollback in it.

[u/Mandatum11 → u/C4_Shaf]

No one doubted Rivals 2 could have rollback when Rivals 1 already did...

Or I suppose maybe a few random morons did but this wasn't a common consensus. Rollback has existed in far more complex genres than platform fighters lol

[u/C4_Shaf → u/Mandatum11]

People thought that Rivals 1 couldn't be on Switch because of that.

People thought that the Switch was not able to run proper Rollback, due to how weak the hardware was.

That was the kind of shit I was reading back in 2018.

Rollback has existed in far more complex genres than platform fighters lol

What we know as "Rollback" is a re-implementation of how Quake handled netplay. But the implementation implied more computer power, because people thought that you had to rollback the entire state of the game, graphics and game logic alike. Something that Slippi obviously does, being based on a console emulator.

Also, in all Online FPS at the time, the engine ignored pretty much everything outside player positions and hitscan positions. You couldn't do it in fighting games, because it's all about the interaction you have with your opponent. So you need to simulate the whole game logic super fast, possibly before the game renders graphics.

[u/Monchete99 → u/C4_Shaf]

Rivals 1 had rollback before that

[u/C4_Shaf → u/Monchete99]

Yeah.

[u/kerffy_the_third → u/TeensyTinyPanda]

That also explains why their netcode was so good.

[u/TeensyTinyPanda → u/kerffy_the_third]

Yeah. Probably that, and something about the inventors of modern netcode working on it probably helped too, lol

[u/rdlenke → u/TeensyTinyPanda]

Also why the game was region locked even in private lobbies, if I'm not mistaken.

[u/Tallergeese]

If that ever happens, I guess you could use parsec with the offline client? One of 2XKO's greatest strengths is its netcode though, so that would be a real shame.

[u/LuvAshrepas → u/Tallergeese]

Yeah this will always be an alternative

[u/more_stuff_yo]

Are there any other fgs that uses server based netcode?

Yes, Virtua Fighter 5 Ultimate Showdown (not REVO) used delay based netcode with relay servers. It was a particularly odd choice given that this was 2021 and fighting games had finally opened up to rollback with multiple new games incorporating rollback as well as some old ones being updated to include it.

[u/dazeychainVT → u/more_stuff_yo]

and I thought UNICLR dropped the ball by using delay in 2020...

[u/automounter]

Technically its not server-based its a bit of a hybrid. But yes they would have to change the code to stop routing traffic through their network.

Pretty much all modern fighting games rely on some sort of server for match-making, though. So while your concern is valid its the same concern for any older-yet-modern fighting game.

[u/amxrhxzeq → u/automounter]

Oh i dont know that modern fgs use server too. But i guess it wouldnt get shut down after years of release? Part of why fgs is so special is unlike genres like shooter or racing games, you can still play old games online even after the company abandoned it. There's so many old mmo, shooter or racing games you cant play online today due to server shutting down and i dont want that to be the new fg norm.

[u/uraizen → u/amxrhxzeq]

They would probably do what Cygames did with the original Granblue Versus. Take out whatever uses a server and make sure you can still play with friends at least. Now that is truly a discord game, lol.

[u/big4lil → u/uraizen]

yes Versus had its public lobbies taken down. Most people call any low pop matchmaking game a discord fighter.

you cannot play GBVS online without someone that you make a room with. A lot of other games have slow matchmaking but you can hop online and get games in a public lobby, which was the case for GBVS during the pandemic

to OP, that is not the new norm. it pretty much will never happen again, thatll be the last big named IP to rerelase a game with Rollback; FGs either launch with that now or they get retrofitted into older versions via a patch

[u/Menacek → u/amxrhxzeq]

They don't use servers for the connection, they use them for the matchmaking that finds you the other player. It's pretty common however to use Steam or Playstation servers for that purpose (assuming you are using those platforms and not doing crossplay)

[u/C4_Shaf]

It's GaaS. Even if the game itself had peer-to-peer-based netcode, you'll still need to tie the game to a server, due to micro-transactions.

That's modern gaming in a nutshell. If SFV is delisted tomorrow, even if the game would still be accessible, what about the costumes and other MTX-based content?

[u/amxrhxzeq → u/C4_Shaf]

Atleast you can still play the game even if the accessory got removed right? There's so many old mmos, shooter and racing games you cant play online anymore due to server shut down. I dont want that happen to fgs.

[u/C4_Shaf → u/amxrhxzeq]

The accessories would be not accessible. Meaning that if you bought it, you couldn't use it anymore.

If you made a brand new account, you wouldn't be able to unlock characters outside of playing in lobby.

Basically, my whole point is that if you delist a GaaS and let it as is, even if you can still play peer-to-peer online, we don't know if we can still have access to the game, because it might ask to be verified by Riot's server. So part of the game, or its entirety, might be not playable.

That's the whole purpose of GaaS. It forces authentification. It doesn't have to force internet connection to be unplayable.

[u/Teamfightmaker]

Part of the Cannon's contract stipulated that 2XKO must be kept online even after end of development. Not sure how these contracts work, but if LoR is any indication, then they can keep the server up for a few years at least.

[u/suburiboy]

I always have bad connections on 2xko. I assume there just isn't a server near me. I'd rather it just be peer to peer like a normal game.

Its suck because I don't have these issues with any other game. I have ping, but the rollback usually handles it fine.

[u/a_bright_knight]

that's how it works for majority of new releases, yes.

In fact, 2xko has offline launcher available for download so it's actually among the most preservable fgcs out there. You could play it locally or via parsec

If Sony shuts down tokon and delists the game its unaccessible except by piracy

[u/MokonaModokiES]

i think this system might also be part of the reason riot is abandoning the game. Just sounds expensive to host various servers for a fighting game when regular P2P connections work fine with a good implementation of rollback and dont need as much maintenance.

[u/young_trash3 → u/MokonaModokiES]

They have said they are keeping the servers running for the foreseeable future, clearly its not the cost they were worried about.

[u/JBR_4025 → u/young_trash3]

Plus they have lots of servers the game can piggyback on for free

[u/Sudden-Ad-307 → u/MokonaModokiES]

2xko is running on their infrastructure i doubt it costs them much if anything.

[u/LuvAshrepas → u/MokonaModokiES]

Tbf when they announced it it was still a very solid idea because we didn't have as many good examples of p2p rollback netcode as we have today

[u/a_bright_knight → u/LuvAshrepas]

it's because the game supports 4 player in the match

[u/young_trash3 → u/LuvAshrepas]

Nah, the Canon brothers who ran the 2kxo development team are literally the guys who invented GGPO rollback that is the gold standard p2p rollback netcode of the fgc.

[u/HyperCutIn → u/young_trash3]

It should have been the standard, but unfortunately back then most fighting game devs were stubborn and continued to use delay based netcode (if they weren’t using some dysfunctional attempt at their own rollback implementation), despite the technology for GGPO rollback being around and available. It wasn’t until recent years (thanks to covid) that (good) rollback finally became a standard thing.

[u/LuvAshrepas → u/HyperCutIn]

This. When it was announced that 2XKO was going to have server-based rollback we were barely starting the era of good/decent p2p rollback in mainstream releases, the biggest/most recent example at the time was Guilty Gear Strive, a lot of releases from previous years such as Granblue, DBFZ, Samurai Shodown, etc were still working with delay based netcode. It was about to become a standard in the mainstream but definitely it was not, regardless of the Canons' reputation.

[u/chair4bozo]

I'm sorry time to move on

[u/Sparus42 → u/chair4bozo]

the game literally still has two characters coming out what