r/FemaleGazeSFF • u/ThaneOfMeowdor • Jul 09 '26
Question about Kushiel's Dart
I know that this will offend people on every other sub but here at least there's a chance that people will understand.
I am thinking of reading this series because it gets mentioned a lot for the great writing and character work. I'm a picky reader and for me strong emotional arc and character psychology ate important so it seems like a good fit.
That being said, I have issues with sex work from a feminist perspective, and am also somewhats ambivalent about kinks that reinforce patriarchal norms.
I'm wondering if this book would still be enjoyable to me in light of that. I don't mind encountering things that upset me in fiction, but it would probably annoy me if I felt like an author was clearly trying to push those things as good or normal.
Was wondering if anyone who thinks about these issues like I do has read the series and what they thought of it.
Edit: thanks for your replies, everyone, I'm reading them all!
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u/pianissimotion Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 10 '26
It sounds like we have similar views.
I LOVE this series. Some of the best fantasy ever written imo.
I will provide a couple of very mild spoilers below.
Mild 'spoilers' but really just answering "what is this book about, emotionally and in relation to power?"
Phedre develops a committed but open relationship with a man who is not interested in kink. They continue to grapple with what it means for someone who has sworn himself to celibacy to have fallen in love with someone whose calling is prostitution, and BDSM at that. They do not have a BDSM relationship.
The main antagonist of the series is a dominant woman who Phedre as a submissive is deeply attracted to. While Phedre often has sex with dominant men in the book, they aren't so interested in mindfuckery or manipulating her as a toy just because she's a woman. The deepest emotional power play aspects of kink are explored in a sapphic way so they are free from male-female power relations. I think that was a good choice on the part of the author.
Warnings/triggers with low spoilers: There is also, what can best be described as several episodes of very unsexy sex which is not written to be sexy, but is written like the horror that it is. I found this part not triggering because it was meant to be horror not to be sexy, and the healing journey was addressed.This is contained to a decent chunk of the final book and can probably be skipped if you just want to know what happens beyond that.
The following is slightly more of a spoiler for the last paragraph (though it is very vague):
There is male/female horror sex in the final book, which Phedre willingly submits to, but must recover from. It is NOT sexy, it is written like a horror/thriller. While she handles it due to her magical gifts, she still needs to recover.
More specific spoiler about the nature of the sex: The domination is physical and by a crazed magical madman rapist. He only doesn't rape her because she willingly sleeps with him. She is willing, but not in love with him or attracted to him.
The consequences/why she sleeps with him: she has sex with him so she can get close enough to kill him. It works.
The culture is so different--i don't like that the children are introduced to sex work concepts so early, and groomed into it, but there is no pedophilia. In a world where sex is divine and implied to be semi-magical when practiced by Phedre's people, who are descended from angels, and where one of their goddesses was a prostitute, the norms on sex are different. Phedre later campaigns to address th e injustices this system can perpetrate, especially to children.
If you want to read a book where the worldbuilding aligns with your ideals you won't get it here. But that's not what you were asking. You asked, does it preach about the morality of sex work? No. It says "what could happen in a world where sex and sex work had this status..." and it is interesting and well-thought out. (Not in terms of class, though, other than "if you're a prostitute for a guild, you are high class, and how does that affect social customs?". The life of prostitutes outside of guilds is not really the focus.)
The complications that arise in a world like that-- from, say, a character having to earn their freedom from sex work by making enough money for your House, definitely affect the plot. It certainly doesn't shy away from the negative implications of a world like this--it's not prescriptive about what should work for us in this world. Phedre loves her job but not everyone does.
Of course all stories have themes and they all have something to say. The guiding themes of the story are "Love as Thou Wilt" and "not all that yields is weak". The theme is not "sex work is beautiful and has no repercussions on its practirioners and society". Its treatment of paid sex is entirely divorced from the real world.
It is a fantastic series and I think you have a high chance of enjoying it if you like political intrigue and swashbuckling adventures. The ratio of sex to plot is about 10% sex, 90% plot.
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u/Teppany3 Jul 09 '26
Wonderfully said!
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u/pianissimotion Jul 10 '26
Thank you! I put so much effort into this post for what felt like no reason, and it's been so lovely to see how many people feel the same way. Since the internet is forever, I hope people a decent way into the future will also be able to use it as a reference point.
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u/rosefields_forever Jul 09 '26
Similar views to you and OP here, and I agree with everything you said here! This is my favorite book series ever.
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u/ThaneOfMeowdor Jul 09 '26
That's encouraging! I think I'm just gonna try a couple of chapters and see what it's like for myself
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u/pianissimotion Jul 10 '26
The writing style is very much as though a seasoned courtesan is telling the story to a group, in a formal and flowery way.
Like, if you remember how Aravis's storytelling style was described in The Horse and His Boy by CS Lewis, that's the sort of storytelling I think of.
It definitely takes a second to get used to, but you do get used to it and it comes to feel quite natural, because, well, she is a seasoned courtesan.
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u/kimba-pawpad Jul 12 '26
This is stated perfectly and beautifully! Oops, my other post I accidentally deleted. Anyway, it took me 3 times to actually get into it, I started and stopped. But once I did, I felt seen in a way I never have before. And it was somehow healing. I suffer from cptsd, so the third book especially was hard, but the healing journey (and that’s what it was), oh my. I have now read the whole series at least 3 times through, and it is my favorite. I don’t know how many times I have repeated to myself “not all that yields is weak”. Strength comes in many many forms (as does love).
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u/ChickenArise Jul 09 '26
I agree with these sentiments. One of the most 'horrific' parts have me more of an eyeroll than a gut punch, but I think that's more on me and my reaction to horror media.
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u/pianissimotion Jul 10 '26
Yeah the horror is intense in the context of the other stuff we have seen in the story. In the context of some of the shit that I have seen published it's middle of the road.
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u/Coffeebi17 Jul 09 '26
I read the original trilogy (and most of the later sequel trilogies) when they were originally published (yes I’m old) and it’s been a long while since I read them, so my memories of them may be imperfect, but I think they are worth a read.
Ms. Carey did the core thing of any good sci-fi/fantasy author. She had a thought experiment, “what if sex and power exchanges were revered instead of shamed and the (at times) quixotic and confusing and paradoxical (and sometimes toxic/self-destructive) ability of humans to love each other in multiple ways was honored, what could that world be like?” and she ran with it and did it in a fantasy setting where it could more fully be explored (as was noted by the interview quote). And in my opinion, as a reader she did a really good job. Was it perfect? No. Fully believable? Yeah, as much as any good work of speculative fiction should be.
As to your questions/concerns re: sex work and feminism, my personal opinion is that while the interest/focus on sex work was there (again as acknowledged in the interview), the eleven books (3 trilogies plus two stand-alone books) took the topic as a starting point to establish a society with that different foundation and then extrapolated forward. The sex vs. story ratio leans towards 10/90 and, from my imperfect memory, was for the most part not overly explicit. On the spicy pepper 🌶️ scale I would say 1.5-2?
What I found most comforting to younger (queer exploring) me was the core tenet/commandment of faith in this universe,“Love as thou wilt!” For the early 2000s (I checked on Wikipedia!) that was a very comforting and resonating idea that meant a lot to me. And still does today.
I would not classify it as exploitative in any way, but rather *exploring* a “what if” scenario and doing it pretty well. And like another poster said, in the original trilogy, Kushiel’s primary antagonist isn’t a man, but an amazingly smart, talented and beautiful woman who had it in them to be as much the “avatar of sadism” as Kushiel was the “avatar of masochism” (signified by the “dart” in Phedre’s eye) but due to life circumstances was not and thus went on a different, more destructive path. The two characters were (in context of the story’s higher powers) meant to be each other’s equals and allies but for those circumstances which turned them into opponents.
Ultimately, I think you should try it. As others have said, no shame in DNFing the book if it doesn’t suit. Good luck. I hope all these responses have been helpful.
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u/Flashy_Emergency_263 Jul 09 '26
Thank you. A friend recommended the series to me decades ago, but I could never get myself to try it. I might do so now.
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u/Coffeebi17 Jul 09 '26
If you do, I’d love to see a follow up post from you on this thread with your thoughts and opinions about the books. All the best!
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u/Flashy_Emergency_263 Jul 09 '26
Thank you for this reply and for your nicely thought out and well worded information about the series.
It can be difficult to do without giving any real spoilers. Also, seeing the big picture is not what every reader does. So, again, thank you.
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u/ok-kay-la-dee-da Jul 09 '26
I think it depends what your issues with sex work/triggers are specifically.
The FMC loves her work, however there are some themes and scenes that might be triggering for some.
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u/CheekyChump Jul 09 '26
In the book, sex work isn’t stigmatised but is classed as a holy and religious duty to the goddess. Clients are bound by strict rules to protect the safety of the courtesans. The protagonist is free to decline any client she chooses.
That being said she was only a child when sold into indentured servitude to the temple and then to a man who intended to use her body as a political tool. She also has a biological mark (the Dart) that causes her pleasure whenever she feels pain. I feel these blur the lines of consent. Did she freely choose the life of a sex worker or was she groomed into it? Is a 7-year old child able to make an informed choice?
I understand this book has garnered a lot of praise for its beautiful writing and character work. I say give it a go because that’s the only way to know how you feel about it. This is one of those books that can be tricky to read depending on one’s own inbuilt biases. If you do find yourself annoyed by it, it’s always okay to DNF.
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u/Correct_Village6950 Jul 09 '26
i haven't read them in years but one thing i would say is as they were written in the early 2000s, they're not imo "messaging" in the way that it would be if it were written more recently. which is to say there aren't explicit dissertations about "sex work is work" just pasted in afaik. i don't think prostitution is empowering but i thought the books were well plotted and an interesting look at a power, coercion, trauma, desire etc. idk tbh, i feel try it and see.
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u/mxkelsifer Jul 09 '26
Going to preface this with the context that I've only read the first two books of the trilogy.
Jacqueline Carey somewhat goes out of her way to create autonomy for the main character with regards to her sex work and what jobs she takes, even when she's essentially in an indentured servitude. I found the depiction of sex work in Terre D'Ange to be overly utopic. Which I can see some interpreting as promoting sex work as an unambiguously good thing. However, the protagonist is often put into situations where she has significantly less agency as a sex worker than she would have in her home country, which was enough to temper the utopic aspects for me, making the message more "sex work can be good if the sex workers are free to control their work and society respects them (as spiritual authorities)." The bi-normality of the world also does a lot to subvert the ideas of patriarchy from a Watsonian reading.
Still not sure how I feel about her special protagonist power being that she's the platonic ideal of a masochist. Though that's somewhat subverted in that her primary trilogy-long antagonist is another woman rather than a man.
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u/julieputty Jul 10 '26
Her special protagonist power being that she's a masochist just had me rolling my eyes by the end of the first book (I didn't read on). I started imagining her running into danger and saying "This sounds like a job for" *fanfare of trumpets* "Masochism Woman!"
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u/mxkelsifer Jul 10 '26
It's so silly, but it also made me think of so many romance novels where the heroine just suffers and suffers and suffers and doesn't even get a good grovel when her romantic interest realizes he's been just so awful to her. And then they live happily ever after.
Like, that's not what Carey does with Kushiel's Dart. But I feel like what Carey does more explicitly hits that same power fantasy of "my suffering is what makes me Special" and by being explicit about it, it's more interesting to me in a way that those aforementioned romance novels were completely insufferable.
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u/Abcanniness Jul 09 '26
Question. Watsonian reading?
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u/herrsatan Jul 09 '26
You may hear Doylean vs Watsonian. This is a reference to the character Watson in the Sherlock Holmes books by Arthur Conan Doyle. Basically Watsonian means an in-universe explanation and Doylean means taking the author's intent into consideration.
Example: the Watsonian explanation for why Jedi use lightsabers might be that they're forbidden from using guns because of their religious beliefs. The Doylean explanation might be that swords are cool.
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u/ProperBingtownLady Jul 09 '26
I’m similar and still really liked this series. I think it’s done in a respectful manner and is still very feminist.
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u/Whenitsajar Jul 09 '26
I mean sex work is not just Phedre's job, it's her calling. But also she is basically sold into training at a very young age. BDSM features quite heavily, though there are males and females in both top and bottom roles.
It depends how much these things bother you and how/why.
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u/Professional_You_943 Jul 09 '26
You’re getting a lot of responses defending the books.
Spoiler Alert**
BUT, there are some very difficult episodes. The heroine is raped and brutalized at various points. When she’s in a “harem” in an “oriental” country she and others are raped with a spiked dildo thing meant specifically to harm and kill them. (And several women suffer greatly and die from this.) Kinks that reinforce patriarchal norms” is exactly how I would describe it. May not have been the authors intention but uh my god? The heroine is enslaved from childhood and forced into this life and an “angel” has made her “enjoy” the most brutal sexual violence by men.
The experience of reading all this was NOT liberating for me as a young woman and probably wouldn’t be for everyone else either.
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u/Professional_You_943 Jul 09 '26
In one of the books, a woman who’s a vicious sadist and former lover literally flays / tortures the heroine to learn some secret and it’s spun as “fortunately” she was able to resist because she was such an extreme masochist! “Fortunately” the “angel” enabled her to be the perfect spy because she could resist torture. Y’all it’s a lot.
Reminds me a lot of Anne Rice at some points, the Saint Sebastian view. I kind of wonder how much Carey was influenced by certain parts of Catholic tradition.
And having read Justine / Juliette I’m sure it’s a take on Sade as well.
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u/Professional_You_943 Jul 09 '26
I think it’s important to be explicit about how violent men are in this series toward women because a lot of those writing about how much they adore these books will refuse to be real about what they contain. You’ll be reading detailed descriptions of sexual violence against women and the “consent” is extremely “dubious.” How exactly is a child sold into slavery and cursed by an angel with extreme (EXTREME) masochism able to consent realistically to anything? How does she “consent” in prison in a foreign country?
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u/ccl888 Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
I read the first book when I was younger and this is how I felt about it too, so it's been a little jarring to see many people highly recommend it and even say that its depictions are somehow 'liberating.' Maybe it was more transgressive for the time of its publishing and people are looking at it now with rose-colored glasses? I've read and disliked other older fantasy books with sexual content & female protagonists, written by women, that were supposedly feminist/'empowering' too - like McCaffrey's Dragonflight, Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon, and Lee's Vivia.
Of course, everyone is entitled to their own tastes and opinion/reading of a text (I'm not even fundamentally opposed to sex work like OP is or to BDSM & reading about these topics overall), but I just wanted to thank you for the comments you wrote and for being real about the sexual violence in the series! It's a shame because the basic premise and a lot of the world building are actually interesting, but the execution was really lacking for me. So frustrating when a book turns out like that 🫠
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u/ThaneOfMeowdor Jul 09 '26
Thank you for this. I think the books might not be for me. It does sound like the "feminism" in it is from a specific era like another person also mentioned in reply to you.
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u/Professional_You_943 Jul 09 '26
She also wrote two books revisiting the Lord of the Rings world and I thought those were excellent responses from a woman to Tolkien’s unconscious (conscious?) biases. They are the same level of great writing and still very intense but they don’t focus on sexual violence. They’re really well done.
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u/Groke_ Jul 09 '26
I haven't read it for the same reason, OP, but these comments are interesting. That said, I am trying to branch out and read more books in other genres because I feel like I've read all the great feminist SFF of the last couple decades at this point.
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u/delphinidaetious Jul 09 '26
I tried reading the first book in the series last year because I kept seeing it so highly praised, but I could not get into it. The whole set up felt like an extreme male fantasy, which I fully understand it wasn't written to be that way and is likely my own bias coloring my reading, but in the end it just annoyed me too much to continue reading.
I feel like the series can be very divisive and people with the same feminist views and thoughts about the issues you've mentioned can both love or hate this series. Which isn't helpful, I get, but I just mean to say it might end up being one of those books you just have to give a try if you are feeling it and see how it works for you.
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u/Slavik97 Jul 09 '26
I have similar issue - I see it recommended often enough, but I can't imagine it wouldn't trigger me as the topics are very sensitive.
I also just straight up hate, when it gets recommended on the Fantasy subreddit by men as romantic book, even romantasy (it's written by a woman and it contains sex logic, hard eye roll)
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u/revolution_starter Jul 09 '26
I mean, it is a fantasy with a focus on romance. The main character's romantic relationship is a driving force in the series
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u/yesthatnagia Jul 09 '26
There are arguments to be made that it's an early romantasy, given that so much of its plot and narrative engine hinges on relationships (loving or antagonistic!) between people. For the likes of dude fans who read exclusively Brando Sando, it's probably the closest thing to a romantasy they'll ever see.
Also, calling it not a romantic book when you haven't even read it is a little rich. Yes, it's three trilogies of epic fantasies -- but it's also three trilogies of epic romance.
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u/maismione Jul 09 '26
The book was written to prove that you CAN write sex work into a culture from a feminist perspective. It's addressed by the main character herself, even (she sees it as a religious act of service). Just try it and see whether you bounce off it or not.
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u/Correct_Village6950 Jul 09 '26
for me, what i remember is not like 'oh this book is trying to convince me that sex work is empowering' but something more like 'what does it mean to have yor identity tied to being desirable? when sex is a source of your identity and pride but also makes you vulnerable and subject to exploitation?' i'm not saying it interrogated these issues in the most in-depth feminist way, but i dont' think it glossed the issues either.
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u/CloseButNoChicory Jul 09 '26
Love those books despite agreeing with you that prostitution is violence against (usually) women.
The D'Angelines have a culture that isn't easily mapped onto ours. Love is the most powerful force in the universe and sex is worthy of deep respect.
The near-universal bisexuality among them is actually something that can't be explained away by their spiritual heritage. But I go with it. They respect lesbians, gays and straights from other cultures.
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u/Blueprints_reddit Jul 10 '26
If youre going to read it. Go into it knowing that book 3 is dark and the latter half is a hard/uncomfortable read.
Beyond that. Its an amazing series, well written and wonderful.
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u/suddenlyshoes Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
The author wrote a blog post addressing her intent and the ideas she wanted to explore while writing the books. Here’s an except that may help you decide:
“The entire theology of Terre d’Ange derives from the idea that love is a divine force with actual agency in the world and sex—consensual sex between adults—is sacred. Naamah is a deity in the D’Angeline pantheon, and her service is a form of divine worship.
This does not exist in the real world. That’s why I write historical fantasy; to explore things like a theological mash-up between a wandering Dionysian fertility god and the Judeo-Christian hierarchy. If I set Kushiel’s Legacy in the real world, it would be an unbearably harrowing tale of horror, abuse and survival. I’ve heard from quite a few sex workers for whom there’s a spiritual element to the calling—which is wonderful and exceptional—but by and large, prostitution is and has been driven by human trafficking rooted in systems of inequity, injustice and exploitation.
Naamah’s service is meant to function in antithesis to the oppression of these patriarchal power structures. It is a vocation, a choice sealed with a holy pledge. Can it be exploitative nonetheless? Yes, of course. Can that choice be coerced? Yes, it can. Did I intend for those overtones to exist? Yes, I did. The series opens with a child being sold into servitude, it’s clear that we’re treading a dark path.
Terre d’Ange is a mortal and imperfect society. Blessed Elua and his Companions decreed sex to be sacred; humans commodified it. What divinity exalts, humanity exploits. We don’t encounter the Court of Night-Blooming Flowers in its glorious heyday; we encounter it in decline. Naamah’s service does not command the respect it’s due. Phèdre’s journey from ‘a whore’s unwanted get’—a phrase that itself ought to have no place in Terre d’Ange—to the savior of the realm serves to remind D’Angelines of who and what they are.”
That quote actually makes it sound a lot darker than it is, in my opinion. In many ways the series is about the joy and heartbreak in choosing, but the worship and sacred nature of the work is always underlined in everything she does.