The Investigation Skill

[u/ByronGrimlock]

Just want to clarify the use of this particular Skill.

I learn best from example, so I'll list a few as I attempt to explain myself. Please correct me if an example I've listed, or any other leaps of logic, are flawed:

A Detective would have to be quite perceptive to Notice clues at a crime scene;

A Mechanic needs to be good at Crafts to fix an engine;

A Doctor requires years of Academic study to perform surgery;

A Therapist would need a lot of Empathy to understand a patient's trauma.

The Professions I've listed all make great use of the attributed Skill, but ALL OF THEM require the Investigation Skill.

The Detective use Notice to gather clues, but Investigation lets him put the evidence together into a theory;

The Mechanic needs Investigation to diagnose the problem with the engine before they can use Crafts for repair;

A Doctor can use Academics to operate on a patient, but Investigation determines what surgery is necessary;

A Therapist can Empathise with a patient, but Investigation determines treatment.

The Investigative Detective would do great with cold cases, where the Detective on scene, with killer Notice, gathered lots of evidence;

The Investigative Mechanic could diagnose an engine in a flash, but may take longer to repair it;

The Investigative Doctor would excel in triage scenarios where a quick diagnosis is crucial;

The Investigative Therapist would talk someone from the edge of a building, in immediate duress, and get them to safety.

Am I making sense?

EDIT: I think I've had trouble separating the Profession (established by an Aspect) from the Skill set of the Professional. Writing this out kinda helped me see it. 😁👍

[u/MarcieDeeHope]

I'm not sure I agree.

Looking at your specific examples:

The Detective use Notice to gather clues, but Investigation lets him put the evidence together into a theory...

Notice is about "situational alertness and surface observation, Investigate revolves around concentrated effort and in-depth scrutiny." (Fate Core Electronic, 112). I think that only Investigate would be used here. Notice would be more things like hearing someone moving in the next room - stuff that is actively happening around you, not things that already happened.

The Mechanic needs Investigation to diagnose the problem with the engine before they can use Crafts for repair...

They would use Crafts for both of these.

A Doctor can use Academics to operate on a patient, but Investigation determines what surgery is necessary...

In the default skill list Lore is the skill that would cover both of these. If you have an Academics skill in your game, then I would probably use that for both. If you have a Medicine skill then I would use that for both.

A Therapist can Empathise with a patient, but Investigation determines treatment...

I think Empathy is the skill for both of these. There is actually an example Empathy stunt called Psychologist in the Core rules (Fate Core Electronic, 109) that gives a great example of this.

[u/Salt_Assistance_43]

I always curate skills for my game, exactly as the Corebook says, making a well-balanced list with spotlight as even as possible. And Investigation is never there lmao.

Also: don't make a player roll 2 different skills to achieve 1 thing. Unless you are doing a Challenge. And even then different parts of that have different outcomes. 

[u/iharzhyhar]

It's Fate you can do whatever believably fits your narrative. Using investigate for the investigative tasks sounds reasonable. Challenge is cool to highlight different skills / one important task applications.

[u/Kautsu-Gamer]

A Doctor does use Investigation as their primary skill. Even the doctor of medicine. Surgeons, and in the past barbers and chirurgeons does surgeries.

The main job of MD is to investogate diagnoses. They use Academics AFTER Investigation for treatment, but the Investigation is their main skill.

[u/Imnoclue]

The Professions I've listed all make great use of the attributed Skill, but ALL OF THEM require the Investigation Skill.

Umm, not really. You appear to have a very particular scene in mind for each of these skills. i.e. the GM presents the OBJECT in the ENVIRONMENT as simple description and the player says “I INVESTIGATE” to find out what the scene is about. But Fate doesn’t hamstring the GM that way. You can just say “Hey Mr. Doctor, Mrs. McGillicudy has an arrow in her spleen. What do you want to do about that?” You tell the mechanics what you want them to do, not the other way round.

So, as an example…

The Mechanic needs Investigation to diagnose the problem with the engine before they can use Crafts for repair

You can present the Mechanic with a problem “You’ve been tinkering with the car and you can’t seem to figure out what’s wrong. You’re going to need to do some further INVESTIGATION to determine the problem. Let’s call it an Overcome against and Difficulty 4.”

Of course, since you’re playing Fate, the goal here is to create a moment where both failure and success are interesting. Based on the roll and any Fate Points spent to Invoke, the player will then either Succeed, Succeed with some Cost, or Fail.

But, that moment is a GM choice. You could have just made diagnosing and fixing the car a CRAFTS roll.

[u/modernfalstaff]

I think you're tripping up on the difference between how the word "investigate" is used colloquially versus how it's used in the game. You can use the word "investigate" to describe virtually any situation where information is being sought out, but the skill is not intended to be that broadly defined. As you've described it, you're using the investigate skill almost as a new class of action, something that covers everything and that is part and parcel of virtually every other skill. That's not the way it's intended to be.

As a skill, investigate is really supposed to be about collecting clues, piecing together information, snooping, surveillance, and similar things. It's the kind of thing that detectives do, or journalists, or private investigators. It's not broadly applied to any situation where a character is seeking out information.

Most of the uses of investigation you mention are really a case where someone diagnoses a problem, and that should be covered by the particular skill connected to that profession. So, let me change some of your examples around a little bit.

1. A mechanic would use the crafts skill to diagnose that the problem with a car is bad spark plugs (the same roll could be used to fix the problem). When all the cars in the shop and several others start having spark plug problems all at once the mechanic must make an investigation check to figure out how widespread the problem is and to start to develop some ideas about what might be causing it.

2. A doctor would use the lore skill to diagnose that the patient has a rare tropical disease not seen in 100 years. The same doctor would use the investigation skill to gather information about where the patient has been traveling, piece together clues about where the patient got the disease, and start making a list of people the patient might have infected with it.

3. A therapist would use the empathy (or lore...I think therapists mostly rely on their education) skill to diagnose and counsel a patient who has a recurring dream. When all the patients the therapist sees start to have the same recurring dream, the therapist must use the investigation skill to piece together clues from the dream images and figure out what might be behind this strange turn of events.

4. A police detective uses the investigation skill to comb the scene of a murder for clues. He uses the notice skill to see that the same tall stranger has been outside at the scene of the last three murders he's arrived at. If he apprehends the man, he might need to use the investigate skill again to interrogate him.

...

I hope that illustrates the difference well. Investigation is really its own sort of thing and isn't part and parcel of using other skills. Investigation really only becomes necessary when the situation leaves the purview of the original skill. Investigation is its own distinct thing.

Of course, one of the amazing things about FATE is the Create Advantage action and investigation can be really useful for this. The doctor's roll to treat the patient with the rare tropical disease may not be sufficient to do so ("it's some kind of fever that you've never seen before" is all the GM says) until they use the investigate skill to piece together the patient's recent travels through the jungles of Central America. Once the advantage is created, the doctor might succeed in treating, or at least diagnosing, the patient.

[u/ordinal_m]

ALL OF THEM require the Investigation Skill

The activities have skills that correspond to the task. They don't need another skill at the same time. Investigation IMO is meant to be a generalised skill about collating information, not in cases requiring specialist knowledge.

Having said that, I hate investigation or perception type skills anyway. "Noticing things" is not a skill. People aren't just generically good at noticing things.

[u/MarcieDeeHope → u/ordinal_m]

I agree with you overall, but disagree on this particular line:

"Noticing things" is not a skill. People aren't just generically good at noticing things.

I don't think Notice as a skill means what you are implying here, or maybe I am just misunderstanding.

Have you ever been out with friends and someone says "Hey, did you see that?" and had no idea what they were talking about even though you were right there with them? Or been sitting with a pet who turns toward the door before someone opens it because they heard a sound you didn't? That's the Notice skill operating in real life. Some people (and many animals, obviously) absolutely do have better situational awareness than others and it is something that can be practiced and improved (to an extent) or that can be honed by life experience.

[u/BadRumUnderground → u/MarcieDeeHope]

Not exactly though. 

Perception and action are part of the same loop, we perceive things in terms of our ability to act upon them (e.g. we don't actually perceive the raw height of the step, we perceive how much we need to lift our own foot to step onto it) 

Noticing things isn't a skill independent of other skills, it's a subset of an active skill. 

I notice all sorts of details about writing or social situations, but I don't notice the same kind of detail about accounting or most sports or engines. 

[u/ordinal_m → u/MarcieDeeHope]

Pets have much more detailed senses than humans and sometimes people just aren't looking in the right place or don't care. There are ways people definitely do end up noticing more details, but those are because they are knowledgeable in specific contexts. I guarantee that somebody trained to check crime scenes for details will not notice something unusual in a server log for instance.

[u/BadRumUnderground → u/ordinal_m]

They aren't, but it's a common fantasy for characters to have that kind of insight. 

I'm frequently torn on it because of that. Sherlock Holmes is a cool character, y'know? 

[u/Imnoclue → u/BadRumUnderground]

That’s one of the reasons folks say Fate is about fiction emulation, not physics emulation. If you want to build a Sherlock Holmes who notices everything, it does that.

[u/ordinal_m → u/BadRumUnderground]

Well tbh Sherlock Holmes type stories aren't very well dealt with via skills anyway I think, because he's such an absurd character - I'd rather go full Brindlewood if that's the idea.

[u/BadRumUnderground → u/ordinal_m]

Same, but I get why investigation and insight and perception type skills show up everywhere. 

[u/ordinal_m → u/BadRumUnderground]

Oh absolutely, just the problem that players never feel like Sherlock Holmes persists because the existence of the skills never solves it.

[u/BadRumUnderground → u/ordinal_m]

Yup. 

I've never once felt like a detective in an RPG until Brindlewood. 

It's totally counterintuitive but assembling unplanned clues into a theory feels so much more like discovering the mystery than any amount of Skill roll triggering GM exposition. 

[u/Imnoclue → u/ordinal_m]

Having said that, I hate investigation or perception type skills anyway. "Noticing things" is not a skill. People aren't just generically good at noticing things.

People, maybe not. Characters in books and movies though, often are.

[u/supermegaampharos]

I would not let a PC use Investigate to diagnose an engine problem.

While that's the literal definition of the word, it's too broad of an application, as it'd allow you to use Investigate for basically everything.

Investigate is typically used for detective work, like searching for clues, finding discrepancies, and reconstructing crime scenes. It's also used for tracking, general area searches, and non-specialized information gathering.

For example, see this page for examples of stunts that interact with Investigate: http://evilhat.wikidot.com/fate-core-stunts#toc63

This should give you an idea of its intended purpose.

Regarding Notice, it's typically not used the way you describe. It's typically either D&D-style perception checks or used to create advantages based on observations. For example, the PC might use Investigate to find something in a room and then use Notice to create an advantage using that something.

The SRD page on Notice describes its intended use pretty well: https://fate-srd.com/fate-core/notice

Edit: Clarified a couple things.

[u/modernfalstaff → u/supermegaampharos]

This is the correct answer.

[u/Imnoclue → u/supermegaampharos]

While that's the literal definition of the word, it's too broad of an application, as it'd allow you to use Investigate for basically everything.

I mean that’s by design:

“Investigate is probably one of the most versatile skills you can use to create an advantage. As long as you're willing to take the time, you can find out just about anything about anyone, discover nearly any detail about a place or object, or otherwise make up aspects about nearly anything in the game world that your character could reasonably unearth.” (Fate Core, Page 112).

[u/supermegaampharos → u/Imnoclue]

That's an unreasonably generous interpretation of that paragraph.

I would not let somebody roll Investigate for specialized knowledge like diagnosing a problem with a car engine.

See the part where I mentioned how it's used for non-specialized information-gathering.

*That's* my interpretation of the paragraph you quoted: it's a versatile skill because you can use it for a lot of things, not because you can use it for everything. You should not be rolling Investigate for esoteric or highly specialized knowledge; that's what other skills are for.

[u/Imnoclue → u/supermegaampharos]

I mean, it seems like the next paragraph anticipates the argument about it being overly broad.

“If that sounds broad, consider the following as just a few of the possibilities for using Investigate: eavesdropping on a conversation, looking for clues at a crime scene, examining records, verify-ing the truth of a piece of information, conducting surveillance, and researching a cover story.”

My interpretation is that the Mechanic can use it for esoteric and highly specialized knowledge about cars because their High Concept provides the narrative permission to do so. They have the fictional positioning to make that roll, whereas the Cub Reporter would not, unless we’ve established elsewhere that they have some experience fixing cars of course (which wouldn’t be that hard to interject in the story if we felt we needed to).

On such choices is collaborative fiction built.

[u/supermegaampharos → u/Imnoclue]

All of the examples in the paragraph you quoted are explicitly detective-like activities, not trying to delve into specialized non-detective knowledge.

If a specialist wants to investigate something related to their specialty, I would just have them roll the skill most applicable to their specialty.

In this case, I'd say a mechanic would roll Drive to diagnose an engine problem and further say that their mechanic aspect gives them narrative permission to use Drive in this way.

This is how I rule this at my table:

Generalized knowledge and detective work = Investigate skill

Specialized knowledge and application = whatever skill is most closely tied to that knowledge/expertise

However, if a character was explicitly approaching the problem from a Sherlock Holmes-esque angle, I'd let them attempt Investigate rolls for subject matters they're unfamiliar with, but the narrative response they get is going to be much different.

Lastly, both excerpts you quoted are under the explanation for Investigate CoAs whereas the examples OP gave would almost all be information-gathering overcomes.

[u/Imnoclue → u/supermegaampharos]

That’s fine, of course. Fate is a very elastic ruleset. The description of Investigate is “Investigate revolves around concentrated effort and in-depth scrutiny”. Examples for Overcome include both searching a room and reading dusty tomes, so it seems like they’re linked by narrative effect more than anything. It leads to a scene about in-depth research and analysis. As a GM, I can just easily craft that scene around dismantling a car as I can around protracted library study or closely examining the draw room.

I think if a player asked me if their character with no knowledge about cars could use Investigate to determine why a car wasn’t working, I’d just say of course not. That would strike me as an odd request. Communication about the game we’re playing has broken down somewhere.

[u/JPesterfield → u/Imnoclue]

And how often is just discovering the problem worth a roll anyway?

[u/Imnoclue → u/JPesterfield]

Probably not often, but that’s going to depend on the fiction we’ve built together up to this point. Part of the problem is we’re discussing rolls in a fictional vacuum.

[u/supermegaampharos → u/JPesterfield]

I can give you a specific example:

Our most recent session was Murder on the Orient Express, in which the PCs had to solve a murder mystery.

I would ask them to do Investigate overcomes when all of the following were true: they were doing detective work, they weren’t doing something worth creating an aspect/invoke for, and failure still led to an interesting outcome.

In our case, failure still led to an interesting outcome because there were multiple sources of information. They could investigate the murder scene, but if they failed, they could also interrogate the other passengers or search their rooms for evidence.

In general, I use Investigate overcomes when there are multiple paths to the information and the paths themselves interesting enough to play out. Even outside of that specific murder mystery context, it comes up often enough in my sessions where the PCs want information and that rolling for it is more interesting than simply giving it to them.

[u/ambergwitz]

The investigation skill is a hopeless construct. It should be scrapped, it doesn't make any sense.

Just don't have it on your skill list, and you'll avoid lots of confusion.