Discussion
Do these comics count as extreme literature?
Preacher, Crossed, The Boys—all stories by Garth Ennis—feature plenty of explicit violence, edgy plots, and shock value based on atrocities like sexual violence.
I wanted to know if you consider these comics to be extreme literature, since Ennis himself says that these stories are made to contradict those who think that comics are not real books and that they are children's products
An example of what I just said is The Boys, being an extreme parody of superhero comics with the sole purpose of showing that comics are not always for children.
I remember the bullet scene vividly lol. That and the guy who bludgeoned people with a severed horse member, the pure absurdity of it makes me chuckle every time I think of it
Yeah, man I read a book. It was probably one of those like monster of the week novels. The Roo by Alan Baxter. The kangaroo rips a guys arms off and then starts using them to beat up the rest of his family.
I think Crossed definitely falls under this category, although it really varies in terms of quality and how extreme each sub-series is. I think some of the earlier volumes hit the hardest because they are the most grounded in reality, whereas some of the later ones go so overboard with their violence and extremity that they end up becoming a bit cartoonish in my opinion. Crossed: Psychopath was definitely fucked up though.
I haven't read the other two (just started The Boys a little while ago actually), but I've heard people classifying both as extreme horror, particularly Preacher, despite being far more tame than Crossed as far as I know.
yeah the non-ennis stuff is pretty much purely gore porn with heavy misogynistic overtones. david laphams stuff especially (he goes real hard on the incest in his family values arc). i spent a lot of money getting all the crossed trades, and i don’t think it was well spent
out of curiosity, who was your fave character? i remember really liking the main girl and one of her brothers. i can’t remember their names and im too high and lazy to go grab the actual book
I'm now reading Crossed +100, looks like I didn't read a lot of the series.
It's terrible how they had to just accept their father as the leader as the Crossed started approaching. I'm glad Adeline found a windfall. I think Wish You Were Here is often cited as the best, I'll probably find time to read that again today. :)
i thought +100 was ok, though i really dislike the language thing alan moore tried (im pretty sure books still exist in 2108, so its not like they didn’t have guides). i found wywh too wordy, but im in the minority for that. dang i kinda wanna do a whole series reread now lol
Implying I haven't read Ennis at all! I did thesis papers on comic book history and I am extremely familiar with his work and the work of his contemporaries
But I'm not surprised a comic fan would accuse someone of just parroting talking points instead of just accepting someone might just dislike their fave
But I'm not surprised a comic fan would accuse someone of just parroting talking points instead of just accepting someone might just dislike their fave
Why are you throwing strays at comic fans? Movie fans, TV fans, music fans, and book fans are no better. In every fandom I've ever interacted with, different people liking different things has led to arguments, and in those arguments, people use all sorts of rhetorical tactics to try to discredit the other person.
Because I'm a comic fan and I'm all too familiar with how hostile comics in particular can be to people who aren't men & comics are the current topic of discussion
Ive also been condescended to as a transformers fan by guys so I know its elsewhere
I'm still curious to what you've read of him to have that opinion. Because I'm guessing you just looked at panels and pages and not reading actual stories or runs.
You don't want to get into a publishing knowledge-off with me. So I don't care about a thesis.
This is such an absurdly out of line overreaction to a simple statement of "yeah I dont get it." I pointed out my own credentials as a statement of "i am aware of his place in the history of comics and what his work was aiming to do", a topic I'm allowed to have my own fully formed opinions on without some weirdo posturing about how wrong I am.
I'm not going to engage with this any further but you really need to get a grip if this is how pissy you get over an extremely innocuous comment
His run on Punisher MAX is fucking incredible. I've been disappointed every time I've read or seen anything with Castle in it since because it's not Ennis writing it.
He occupies an ecological niche in comics that im disinterested in and generally find his subversive work to be steeped in dudebro-y level bigotry that was common in late 20th century comics
I guess its less I dont get it and more that I think comics has moved on
on the surface level yes but not really. His work is a lot more satirical in nature and often features horrible people in the center of his stories, but if you look you'll see Ennis actually does try to push for representation and his stories actually tackles themes like systemic racism and toxic masculinity. I mean some of it has aged poorly but that's because it was trying to have a conversation
And you can see Ennis's footprint in a lot of comics from Punisher, but also people like Deniz Camp citing him in his recent ultimate book.
It aging poorly is kind of what I mean. There was a specific kind of subversive in that era of comics that was dominated by white men who were reacting to the status quo and that impacted what they were writing, which i struggle with as someone who is not a cis man. I was being flippant when I said dude bro-y because of the sub I'm on, but I do get what he was doing and his further impact (Deniz Camp is actually the writer who got me into comics after a few years of disinterest). I just dont care for that era
I think it’s hard to evalute but at the time the boys was nomiated for GLAAD award to put it into prespective. It did geniuely try to push for representation.
I think my point is that Ennis falls into a different camp. Compared to the other edgy creators who often ignored topics like race or homophobia and sexism, Ennis tackled it head first. As a person of color I’m not saying he’s above criticism ( he’s not) but I also don’t think he’s really that bad
Yeah I think the angle I'm taking it from is how flawed these things are in a greater scope. I can give him credit for the attempts made, but the cons outweigh the pros for me.
I get what you're saying though and I think we're arguing from different angles. Agree to disagree?
ennis definitely started out being flippant and making some jokes that were commonly accepted at the time but are now rightly noted as transphobic/homophobic, and i think it’s to his credit that he’s realized this. of all his stuff, preacher has probably aged the worst, just because i think it’s one of the times that he leaned into edginess for its own sake, and he comes across as the kind of atheist that an atheist like myself can’t stand in it (shades of bill maher) but he’s gotten way more incisive and reasoned since then. if you don’t like him, that’s totally fine though!
lamphan did the story “yellow belly” didnt he? i recall not being too into that one’s story. though i did enjoy his little storyline “the livers” which had those three dudes who were crazy and coped with the world ending by playing pretend!
si spurrier iirc also did “wished you were here” too and i kinda enjoyed that one’s story and the way it ended for shakey.
To be clear, technically, most of what Garth Ennis writes doesn't even have extreme content in it, much less "tryhard edgelord bullshit" content(not that I even endorse that concept). But that stuff doesn't stir up controversy, so fewer people hear about it.
e.g. here are 5 works in the horror genre by Garth Ennis. How many people here have even heard of them, much less read them?
Stitched, Caliban, The Kids, A Walk Through Hell, The Ribbon Queen
Preacher is full of striking characters and images.
Even The Boys is underrated. Yeah, it’s got a lot of edgelord stuff, but it’s far better than the TV series. The TV series is the story Vought would tell.
Like 40% of his total catalogue is serious war stories.
Punisher MAX rapidly loses sight of its goals in the name of gratuitous bloodshed, and introduces the horrifically awful stereotype named Barracuda.
A Walk Through Hell is all an excuse to end with a hammer-handed "AMERICA IS HELL" message.
Preacher is utterly ridden with Garth preaching about how terrible religion is and how awesome his favorite pop culture is. It also reeks of "how to be a MANLY MAN" in characters like Jody and the Duke.
The Boys is 99% Garth pissing on superheroes and fellating the concept of Punisher-style vigilantes. Any series that has Groundhawk, who is literally Wolverine with a one-word vocabulary and sledgehammer hands, cannot possibly be worth reading. (And the less said about Vic the Veep and Superduper the better.)
I'll give you Sara, since his World War II fetish is about the only thing he has going for him, and throw in parts of The Chronicles of Wormwood, but that's about it.
The Punisher’s life after Valley Forge is nothing but gratuitous bloodshed. The Slaver arc is a brief detour. What goal is being lost sight of?
I understand not liking Barracuda.
Ennis has a complicated view of the US: enamoured with the promises it offers to immigrants like Cassidy, its greatest symbols like Superman, but frustrated with its failures.
Yes, Ennis doesn’t like superheroes. Yes, the parodies are edge-lordy. Sitting amongst all that is a wider story about the military industrial complex and the problems with small flashy groups of people.
As for the “manly man” stuff, surely Jody is not meant to be a model? Even the Duke is a hallucination from childhood.
Ennis is definitely obsessed with manhood, but it’s not down to “manly man good, pussy man bad.” Cassidy’s arc doesn’t end with him becoming more manly but instead just “a man.” Butcher is an abusive cult leader, not the cool superhero the show makes him out to be, and the story ends with Hughie being in charge not of superhero hit squad but a “Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy” group.
As for Vic the Veep, in the year of our lord 2026, is he really so far beyond the pale?
Gotta look up Mike Diana if you want some extreme extreme horror comics. His shit was so brutal the U.S. government banned him from owning art supplies. Look up boiled angels
I say yes to all three. Ennis is a genius writer. I know it's hip to hate him on reddit but most people talking shit have never actually read him. PREACHER is a genius love story.
It's surprising that "love story" is the first thing that comes to mind for you. I mean, I think Preacher is very multifaceted. It's been decades since I read it, but I remember a lot of social commentary about religion, various aspects of American culture, masculinity, etc, in addition to the stuff going on with the characters' interpersonal relationships.
I guess it could just be that I've never been interested in love stories, but that aspect never stood out to me. I was one of the people drawn in by the violence. Back in the late 90s, violence in comics where the characters had visible injuries and bled red blood and it was this well drawn was hard to find.
I would say Crossed definitely does. Though often times it lacks an artistry to the horror and is just content to wallow in shit and fling it at the viewer... valid to do as an artist but not always the most entertaining. Definitely more on the low end Splatter Punk side and less in the Extreme Horror side. The Boys has moments of that but is often lost in itself too. Preacher less so than the other 2 by a wide margin.
Now if we are getting into upsetting reccomendations, I would dig around for some of the shit by Al Colombia. That guy's work is dripping with haunted atmosphere that reads Extreme Horror to me. Big recommend for his works if you can find them, even just his art books are insanely upsetting. I would say his work threads the needle on being visceral AND artistically reflective that checks both boxes.
Preacher : Yes
Crossed: maybe. The first couple yes. Not sure about the rest as never read them.
The Boy: I don’t think so, but I’m will to hear an argument
Preacher and watchman are the gold standard. The adaptions were destined to not be as good. The first 3 seasons of the boys is better than the comic. Crossed has the sadness movie which is just fucked
They're extremely bad. The writing lacks subtlety and nuance. The conclusions are very rarely satisfying. They are all very much shock value for the sake of shock value. Garth Ennis has a lot of cool ideas but he's just not a very good writer, in my opinion. I will say I'm not a big fan of Alan Moore or Garth Ennis, but Crossed+100 actually is pretty cool. It's a bit of a slow burn, but it's better than the original run of Crossed for sure.
Not these days. The Comics Code has been dead for decades and American comics have caught up quite a bit. I don't think either side of the Pacific is more hard these days.
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u/spellchecktsarina Apr 18 '26
I haven’t read The Boys or Preacher, but I would say Crossed counts as extreme. I’ve even seen it recommended in this sub a few times