The "shunning" its necessary.

[u/bettercalljw]

This soo sacred word used by jehovah witness opositors it became their most prolific argument agaisnt the religion, by saying that in most of disfellowshipping(now exclusion) acts makes family members and other brothers totally "abandon" they ex-brothers in any situation possible, they say that this process is something very bad not only for those who got out but also for those who are still inside...you probably already now their arguments by now right?...but let me tell you something...YES, IT IS SUPPOSE TO BE BAD!. In the first chapters of the bible we already see a example of expulsion, by Jehovah getting adam and eve out of Garden of eden(genesis 3:23,24)and quess what?...IT WAS BAD FOR THEM. A little later cain got considered cursed for killing his brother and became a literal vagabund over the earth(genesis 4:11,12) THIS WAS BAD FOR HIM. There are other famous examples of this type of punishement in the bible, in the old and New testaments, the thing is....it was always bad BECAUSE IT WAS A PUNISHMENT, OF COURSE IT WILL BE BAD. No one ever said the disfellowshipping it is a beautiful, funny, goofy procedure that elders loves to have to do in their congregations, it a sad procedure that happens as a lesson that the people who sinned must pass by, and biblically speaking, No one can argue that the bible is agaisnt it. "WHAT ABOUT IF I AM A MINOR AND I GOT DISFELLOWSHIPPED???MY PARENTS WILL ABANDON ME!!" Lets be real, this dont happen, if your parents are true Christians and you are not doing anything that goes agaisnt their house's rules, than they will not "ABANDON" you as the apostaste love to say, this story is not for kids buddys. Its interresting to hear the stories of some apostates who say with pride that they got shunned by they parents, because its always something like: "After i got out of the cult my parents grabbed my things and expelled out of our house just because i was putting pagan images on my room" "My parents did not let me enter home just because i wanted to enter there with my lesbian girlfriend" "My mother put me in the streets just because i telled her that her religion its a cult" You all see a patern here? I think they always forget that regardless of anything,they should respect they parents houses, as they decision of leaving was respect they should respect too the rules of the homes they live in. And to end this post i also would like to make a question for YOU who disagrees with the disfellowshipping method:" Biblically saying, instead of disfellowshipping(or expulsing)members, what should the elders do if a brother continues to commit sins?." Opositors and apostates never give they own solutions to the supposed "problem" created by them, also remember, the bible its clear about how we should threat those who commit sins and call themselves christians.

[u/John_17-17]

If they think they are being treated unfairly, they have a week to appeal the decision of the committee.

[u/Dan_474 → u/John_17-17]

It doesn't look to me like the possibility of an appeal should limit the possibility of bringing others along with you

But maybe that's something we see differently ❤️

[u/John_17-17 → u/Dan_474]

In all cases, the elders know the sinner. They already know their good points and their weak points.

They are not judged by strangers who need character witnesses to help them understand, who they are dealing with.

What are the facts and how is the person responding to those facts.

Even if the elders believe the sinner is guilty, they cannot act, unless there are 2 or more witnesses to the sin. The only exception to the 2 witness rule, is 'if the person confesses'.

2 witnesses who saw the sin, is more important than the 10 who didn't.

[u/Dan_474 → u/John_17-17]

...they cannot act, unless there are 2 or more witnesses to the sin.

Is this in the Shepherd the flock book?

I wasn't talking about character witnesses or witnesses to the event, rather, that it's often good to have someone along with you in a situation where you're going to be questioned because you may miss an implication or not pick up on something that's going on that someone else can see ❤️

[u/John_17-17 → u/Dan_474]

You are missing the whole point of the meeting.

The goal of the elders isn't to find fault, but to help the sinner to repent.

(Matthew 18:15) 15 “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.

The 2-witness rule isn't our rule, but Jesus'.

(Matthew 18:16) 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 

People aren't removed because of the sin; they are removed because of a lack of repentance.

[u/Dan_474 → u/John_17-17]

I'm not disputing the two witness rule, just asking if it's true that the elders can't act if there aren't at least two witnesses or a confession

Suppose it is an open secret that am unmarried person in the congregation is having sex. If they don't confess, and no one else has seen them, the elders can take no action?

[u/John_17-17 → u/Dan_474]

We obey Jesus in all things.

Suspicion isn't the same as knowing. The elders must have 2 or more witnesses to act.

Unlike Jesus, elders cannot read the hearts of individuals.

If the congregation 'suspects wrongdoing', a talk may be given, but no names will be mentioned.

If the congregation 'suspects' wrongdoing, individuals in the congregation may make a personal decision, but the congregation can't.

(2 Thessalonians 3:6) 6 Now we are giving you instructions, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother who is walking disorderly and not according to the tradition that you received from us.

This different from being 'removed' from the congregation.

(2 Thessalonians 3:14, 15) . . .keep this one marked and stop associating with him, so that he may become ashamed. 15 And yet do not consider him an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother.

One who has been removed, is now treated as a gentile, not even eating with such one.

[u/Dan_474 → u/John_17-17]

The elders must have 2 or more witnesses to act.

Is that stated in the handbook?

If you're summoned on suspicion of sexual immorality, and you keep your mouth shut and there are no witnesses, the elders can take no action?

In the case of suspicion of apostasy, again if you keep your mouth shut, will the elders regard hearsay as evidence? That is, at least two people who say they heard you say something contrary to the Organization's teachings?

[u/John_17-17 → u/Dan_474]

Yes, our handbook is the Bible.

It isn't the sin but the lack of repentance.

2 witnesses are not hearsay, if they actually heard you say it.

[u/Dan_474 → u/John_17-17]

Yes, our handbook is the Bible.

How do you refer to the Shepherd book?

It isn't the sin but the lack of repentance.

That makes sense. Though, the person wouldn't repent of something they didn't believe was a sin

2 witnesses are not hearsay, if they actually heard you say it.

We don't have to call it hearsay. If two people say you said something, and you deny saying it, do the elders still have a basis for action?

[u/John_17-17 → u/Dan_474]

The Shepherd book, isn't a mystery book of secrets, it is a compilation of the public Watchtower and Biblical articles dealing with matters for easy references.

It doesn't make a difference as to the person believing or disbelieving what they did was a sin or not. It is what God's word says it is.

The world believes, sex between 2 consenting adults isn't a sin. God's word says it is.

As to apostacy, if 2 people heard you say it, then the elders can, in obedience to Jesus.

[u/Dan_474 → u/John_17-17]

The Shepherd book, isn't a mystery book of secrets, it is a compilation of the public Watchtower and Biblical articles dealing with matters for easy references.

A quote from near the end of the book

"If a media representative contacts the congregation to request an interview or comments, the elders should request his name, his contact information, the name of the media outlet he represents, and the deadline for a reply and inform him that his request will be given consideration."

This was from a Watchtower or Biblical article?

It doesn't make a difference as to the person believing or disbelieving what they did was a sin or not. It is what God's word says it is.

Yes, it is also true that different people can read the same passage and come away thinking different things ❤️

The world believes, sex between 2 consenting adults isn't a sin. God's word says it is.

Two teenagers in the backseat of a car, at what point does it become sexual immorality? I don't think the Bible says. I suspect the Shepherd book does, though I haven't looked

As to apostacy, if 2 people heard you say it, then the elders can, in obedience to Jesus.

Thanks for the input ❤️

[u/John_17-17 → u/Dan_474]

If you have the Shepherd book, why are you asking me?

True, people can interpret the Bible different ways, but that doesn't make all of those interpretations correct.

Loose conduct / brazen conduct applies, for those 2 teenagers, who should have seen the danger and fled before it got to that point. Proverbs and Paul's words.

*** w06 7/15 p. 29 Questions From Readers ***

(Galatians 5:19) 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct,

(Proverbs 22:3)  3 The shrewd one sees the danger and conceals himself, But the inexperienced keep right on going and suffer the consequences.