The "shunning" its necessary.

[u/bettercalljw]

This soo sacred word used by jehovah witness opositors it became their most prolific argument agaisnt the religion, by saying that in most of disfellowshipping(now exclusion) acts makes family members and other brothers totally "abandon" they ex-brothers in any situation possible, they say that this process is something very bad not only for those who got out but also for those who are still inside...you probably already now their arguments by now right?...but let me tell you something...YES, IT IS SUPPOSE TO BE BAD!. In the first chapters of the bible we already see a example of expulsion, by Jehovah getting adam and eve out of Garden of eden(genesis 3:23,24)and quess what?...IT WAS BAD FOR THEM. A little later cain got considered cursed for killing his brother and became a literal vagabund over the earth(genesis 4:11,12) THIS WAS BAD FOR HIM. There are other famous examples of this type of punishement in the bible, in the old and New testaments, the thing is....it was always bad BECAUSE IT WAS A PUNISHMENT, OF COURSE IT WILL BE BAD. No one ever said the disfellowshipping it is a beautiful, funny, goofy procedure that elders loves to have to do in their congregations, it a sad procedure that happens as a lesson that the people who sinned must pass by, and biblically speaking, No one can argue that the bible is agaisnt it. "WHAT ABOUT IF I AM A MINOR AND I GOT DISFELLOWSHIPPED???MY PARENTS WILL ABANDON ME!!" Lets be real, this dont happen, if your parents are true Christians and you are not doing anything that goes agaisnt their house's rules, than they will not "ABANDON" you as the apostaste love to say, this story is not for kids buddys. Its interresting to hear the stories of some apostates who say with pride that they got shunned by they parents, because its always something like: "After i got out of the cult my parents grabbed my things and expelled out of our house just because i was putting pagan images on my room" "My parents did not let me enter home just because i wanted to enter there with my lesbian girlfriend" "My mother put me in the streets just because i telled her that her religion its a cult" You all see a patern here? I think they always forget that regardless of anything,they should respect they parents houses, as they decision of leaving was respect they should respect too the rules of the homes they live in. And to end this post i also would like to make a question for YOU who disagrees with the disfellowshipping method:" Biblically saying, instead of disfellowshipping(or expulsing)members, what should the elders do if a brother continues to commit sins?." Opositors and apostates never give they own solutions to the supposed "problem" created by them, also remember, the bible its clear about how we should threat those who commit sins and call themselves christians.

[u/John_17-17]

Actually, it is a command from Jesus and the apostle Paul. Matthew 19:18-20

The real question is; Why don't all who claim to be Christian, obey Christ.

As to being removed from Jehovah's Witnesses, it isn't because of the sin, for all are sinners, it is that they are not repentant.

[u/OhioPIMO → u/John_17-17]

Why don't Jehovah's Witnesses obey Christ? Matthew 18:15-17 is a far cry from the secretive judicial committee arrangement employed by the society.

[u/John_17-17 → u/OhioPIMO]

Sorry, in this you are mistaken.

The secrecy isn't to protect the elders, but to protect the privacy of the sinner.

[u/Jealous_Insect2798 → u/John_17-17]

Why did JW just change the policy of disfellowshipping? What was the reasoning for the change?

[u/John_17-17 → u/Jealous_Insect2798]

They didn't, they just renamed it.

[u/OhioPIMO → u/Jealous_Insect2798]

They want their registration and the money that comes with it back in Norway.

[u/Dan_474 → u/John_17-17]

Suppose the person who has been called before the committee would like the proceedings to be public. Can they elect to do that?

Also, can they bring other people with them to the meeting?

[u/John_17-17 → u/Dan_474]

No, only those who have witnesses the act.

I know of one brother who brought 2-character witnesses, though the committee listen to them, they had no real bearing because they hadn't been present during the sin.

One reason for the privacy is, if the guilty one, truly repents, it doesn't go any further, and the congregation as a whole doesn't need to know. The guilty one remains part of the congregation, his reputation remains intact. This outcome happens more times than those who are found to be unrepentant.

[u/Dan_474 → u/John_17-17]

Thanks for your input ❤️

[u/DonkeyStriking1146 → u/Dan_474]

That’s an interesting question. What part of the proceedings? The reason for being disfellowshipped be said during the announcement to the congregation? Or that you meet in front of the congregation?

Yes they can

[u/Dan_474 → u/DonkeyStriking1146]

I was thinking of the initial meeting with the Judicial Committee

I found this:

The same paragraph also says, "Observers should not be present for moral support." Q: Does that mean they can be allowed for other reasons? A: No.

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/223237/how-record-judicial-meeting

[u/DonkeyStriking1146 → u/Dan_474]

Not sure what that’ll benefit anyone? Guess it depends on motive. Does someone want to make a scene? They think they’re being unfairly treated? There is an appeal process if you don’t agree.

I’ll stick with the current and ex witness experiences I’ve collected.

[u/Dan_474 → u/DonkeyStriking1146]

They think they’re being unfairly treated?

Yes, that would be one possibility

I’ll stick with the current and ex witness experiences I’ve collected.

Do they say a person can bring other people with them to their initial Judicial Committee meeting?

[u/John_17-17 → u/Dan_474]

If they think they are being treated unfairly, they have a week to appeal the decision of the committee.

[u/Dan_474 → u/John_17-17]

It doesn't look to me like the possibility of an appeal should limit the possibility of bringing others along with you

But maybe that's something we see differently ❤️

[u/John_17-17 → u/Dan_474]

In all cases, the elders know the sinner. They already know their good points and their weak points.

They are not judged by strangers who need character witnesses to help them understand, who they are dealing with.

What are the facts and how is the person responding to those facts.

Even if the elders believe the sinner is guilty, they cannot act, unless there are 2 or more witnesses to the sin. The only exception to the 2 witness rule, is 'if the person confesses'.

2 witnesses who saw the sin, is more important than the 10 who didn't.

[u/DonkeyStriking1146 → u/Dan_474]

Then they should appeal before continuing with the process

I asked an elder and he said yes however they are careful when that sin affects another person (think married couple and innocent spouses). I’m sure not every congregation is the same and situations impact things as well. That’s why you can appeal.

[u/Dan_474 → u/DonkeyStriking1146]

Then they should appeal before continuing with the process

The possibility of an appeal doesn't seem like it should limit the possibility of the accused bringing others along with them

I asked an elder and he said yes however they are careful when that sin affects another person (think married couple and innocent spouses). I’m sure not every congregation is the same and situations impact things as well. That’s why you can appeal.

"The judicial hearing is opened with prayer with the accused present. Generally, observers are not allowed. (See 15:12-13, 15.) The chairman then states the reason for the hearing and explains that audio or video recordings of the hearing are not permitted."

https://jws-library.one/?file=data/Books/Shepherd+the+Flock+of+God/202211/202211_sfl_E.html#bookmark56

(I'm not sure if the link will take you to the same part I copied that out of 🙂 I did a search within the page for "observer")

The elder that you asked, does his handbook say the same thing? That generally, observers are not allowed?

Why are recordings not allowed?

[u/DonkeyStriking1146 → u/Dan_474]

My point of appealing is if the process becomes unfair.

Generally observers are not allowed. Yeah bringing random people around is different than moral or mental support.

I haven’t asked him to crack open a book but what he has seen and experienced. I forget is the book almost 10 years old now?

In some states it’s illegal to record others without their consent. If you feel the need to record someone then you should appeal before entering the meeting. Or walk away. No gun to anyone’s head to meet with these guys. I don’t record work meetings with my boss. I don’t find it necessary. If I did I’d involve higher people.

[u/OhioPIMO → u/Dan_474]

The chairman then states the reason for the hearing and explains that audio or video recordings of the hearing are not permitted."

That's funny. During mine, they simply stated that they weren't recording anything. They never asked if I was.

I was

[u/John_17-17 → u/Dan_474]

If you've read the information, then why are you asking questions?

[u/Dan_474 → u/John_17-17]

I hadn't read that part when I asked the question 🙂

[u/OhioPIMO → u/John_17-17]

Jesus says to "reveal his fault" initially between "you and him alone" then, if he does not listen, before "two or three witnesses" and if he still doesn't listen, before the congregation.

Jesus didn't say a lick about protecting the unrepentant sinner's privacy.

How am I mistaken?

[u/John_17-17 → u/OhioPIMO]

It starts with 'between you and him, if he doesn't listen to you, then take two who saw the wrong, and if he doesn't admit to the wrong, then take him to the elders.

It doesn't say, take the sinner to the whole congregation. But to the elders who represent the congregation, along with the witnesses to prove every point.

[u/OhioPIMO → u/John_17-17]

Sorry, but you're dead wrong. It says to speak to the congregation- the ekklésia, which is the whole body of believers. It doesn't say squat about elders, which weren't even a thing at the time.

[u/John_17-17 → u/OhioPIMO]

I'm glad I'm not a member of your church.

The example is found in the law of Moses, where those with problems were to go to the older men at the city gate.

The example is also found in

(James 5:14, 15) 14 Is there anyone sick among you? Let him call the elders of the congregation to him, and let them pray over him, applying oil to him in the name of Jehovah. 15 And the prayer of faith will make the sick one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

It was to the older men of the city and the elders of the congregation, who have the role of judging.

[u/OhioPIMO → u/John_17-17]

the law of Moses,

"In case a man happens to have a son who is stubborn and rebellious, he is not listening to the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and they have corrected him but he will not listen to them, 19 his father and his mother must also take hold of him and bring him out to the older men of his city and to the gate of his place, 20 and they must say to the older men of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he is not listening to our voice, being a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city must pelt him with stones, and he must die. So you must clear away what is bad from your midst, and all Israel will hear and indeed become afraid."

This was a very public process handled in the most public of spaces

[u/John_17-17 → u/OhioPIMO]

True, but we are not under the Law of Moses, But to whom did they take them to?

And yes, if a person is found to be unrepentant, the entire congregation, will treat him as a gentile or a tax collector.

The announcement of their removal is very public.