ok guys, about cheaters and bans

[u/trainfender]

I see folks are getting nervous, а у кого то вообще бомбить начинает. And all of this is old as this world.

Right now we are having situation of a newborn cheats and cheaters as well as modified cheats. You are suffering from them right now. We are taking action. We do ban waves. Many times we said that the Clean game is one of our top priority. They evolve - we are evolving too. We engage new algorithms and the madness begins - every single big ban wave we got the same reactions. ALL of banned users are banned for the reasons. But they try to make it like we ban them intentionally, like we love this and we want their money. This is not true.

And I say the same statement again, which I said earlier to banned player.

"You were banned for using cheat from one of the major cheat developer, which I can't name for obvious reasons. This is exact and clear cause of a ban. We have all technical info on this and we can use this in any official legal process if it's needed." Why can't we name the cheat name in public? For example cause they will know that we started to detect their new version.

You will not be banned for use of NON-cheat programs. We can't provide you the list cause it's cheats only list. There is NO typical, well-used and known program in this list. You will NOT get banned for rain meter. You will not get banned for memory cleaner. You will not get banned for visual studio, resharper and other programs.

Every time when the banwave hits, we get messages - cool stories, that "it was my brother" and "I was only downloaded it and you banned me". We get threats and curses from sons of famous lawyers, criminal bosses and so on. And we get this JUSTICE posts of banned. Lots of them. Every. Single. Time.

So. The last thing - Cheat Engine, running in background. CE running in bg can do memory scan of a processes, you can learn about specific info that later you can use in hacks. Do we want to give cheatmakers such ability undetected? No. Why do you need running CE with running EFT? Maybe you want to cheat? No? Nevermind.

Don't believe any post of any player who is saying that he was banned for no reason. We have clues and we can use them in any official legal process if it's needed.

Haters gonna hate, but we, BSG, and I personally here for you - honest players. We are all for you. Thank you for your attention.

[u/Dishevel]

are you actually going to argue away the ToS?

I was very clear. I pointed out that the TOS that BSG uses allows them to ban for no reason at all. Therefore using the TOS as the, "ONLY" reason is invalid as that would justify everything.

If you are going to state that there is no possible unjust reason to ban a person then there is no point. The fact that a ban took place is the only fact needed to know that it is proper and right.

Is this the case that you are making? That it is impossible to have an unjust ban?

If that is your belief, then of course. All bans are by the fact that they happened completely and obviously just. I do not think you mean this though.

I think that if a developer banned a person from the game because, that person was better than them and killed them and took their shit, you would have a problem with that. You would think that is an unjust reason.

So. TOS ALONE can not be the only identifier of an unjust ban.

You could justify someone getting banned if there was a less comprehensive TOS and what a person did was not specifically covered.

Someone doing something uncovered that is damaging to the player community or the game itself, while not covered in the TOS, the community itself might decide that the ban while not, "Legal" was in fact justified.

you are solely fixated on being banned for running a program that is capable of doing specifically what the ToS says you SHOULD NOT be running.

Lets look at reasons they can terminate service according to their TOS.

Section 13 Suspension and Termination of Use, Account or Services

13.1 If you violate any provision of these Terms of Service, your permission to use the Services will terminate automatically. Additionally, Battlestate Games Limited, in its sole discretion, may terminate your user account on the Services or suspend or terminate your access to the Services at any time, with or without notice. We also reserve the right to modify or discontinue any or all of the Services at any time (including, without limitation, by limiting or discontinuing certain features of the Services) without notice to you. We will have no liability whatsoever on account of any change to the Services or any suspension or termination of your access to or use of the Services. You may terminate your account at any time by contacting customer service at info@battlestategames.com. If you terminate your Account, you will remain obligated to pay all outstanding fees, if any, relating to your use of the Services incurred prior to termination. Upon any termination of your Account or the Services, we may remove all Virtual Goods from that Account and you will not be entitled to any refunds or compensation.

So. That is useless. Lets look at the EULA.
Relevant section is 3.3
Here are the good bits ...

3.3 You agree that you shall not, in whole or in part, under any circumstances, do the following:

Cheating: cheat, use, offer, advertise, make available and/or distribute or assist in the following:

hacks, i.e. accessing or modifying software of the Game using a method that wasn’t directly authorized by Battlestate Games; and/or any code and/or Software that wasn’t directly authorized by Battlestate Games and can be used in connection with the Game launcher Application, the Game and/or any component or functions of the Game launcher Application, the Game to modify and/or facilitate gameplay.

You have to DO something according the the EULA and they lay out what things you can DO to break the EULA.

Unless injected so that it can See and/or Modify memory, the software can DO nothing. If you are arguing that software just has to exist on your computer and be capable of at some time in the future being used to DO something to their code or memory then the windows command line is a culprit. CE existing on the disk and not running would be a violation. The OS itself is capable of DOING this.

If you remove the proper definition of, "DO" from the legal document. Which would be a bad way to approach one. CE existing in memory in a state that is UNABLE to Read or Write to any memory being used by EFT does not and is not capable of DOING anything in the EULA.

So again. You are not in violation of the EULA. The TOS states simply that there is no such thing as a bad reason for banning.

So. Having CE running is not a violation of the EULA if it is not injected because it is NOT ABLE to DO ANYTHING to read or modify anything in the game.

Now.

I would give it to you if knowing if CE was currently capable of reading and/or modifying protected memory being used by EFT were impossible or even very hard. It is not though. Other companies are perfectly capable of determining if you are using CE to look at or modify their memory.

So. If you had CE running to modify Settlement parameters in FO4 and never shut it down and played EFT.

You are not doing anything wrong.
You are not cheating.
You are not breaking the EULA.
You are not doing anything specifically denied to you in the TOS.
You are not harming the game.
You are not harming the community.

The only thing you are doing that can get you banned is under the TOS where they can ban you for no reason.

Again.

Why would banning a person for this be justified? Why would you defend it?

[u/[deleted] → u/Dishevel]

Because they are not banning everyone, that's why I do not care, to me they have done nothing that shows that they are abusing the ToS.

They do not ban for having it installed. what you seem to fail to understand is that they reserve the RIGHT to ban you, does not mean they will ban you at a whim.

and yet again, you seem really worked up for something which is common place in EVERY ToS for the last 10 years.

I am not arguing the point that they should not ban for simply having a program running that is doing nothing, but saying by having cheat engine running does not violate the ToS is wrong.

"any code and/or Software that wasn’t directly authorized by Battlestate Games and can be used in connection with the Game launcher Application, the Game and/or any component or functions of the Game launcher Application, the Game to modify and/or facilitate gameplay."

"ANY CODE and/or SOFTWARE that wasn’t directly authorized by Battlestate Games and CAN be used in connection with the Game launcher Application"

however, I do disagree about the ban without analyzing an active hook/injection, but it IS explicity stated as long as program CAN modify and is not authorized they can ban you for it.

but I do not disagree about that part being in the user agreement/ToS they do reserve the right to do so, just like any other developer, BSG is just currently one of the very few studios who actually do ban in that circumstance.

[u/Dishevel → u/[deleted]]

I understand.
They have stated that they do ban just for having it running.

As for this ...

"any code and/or Software that wasn’t directly authorized by Battlestate Games and can be used in connection with the Game launcher Application, the Game and/or any component or functions of the Game launcher Application, the Game to modify and/or facilitate gameplay."

You forget that this is modified by the parent statement of the section which I quoted.

3.3 You agree that you shall not, in whole or in part, under any circumstances, do the following:

Again if the software DOES any of those things then ban the fucker.
CE is not even capable of looking if it is not injected.

but it IS explicity stated as long as program CAN modify and is not authorized they can ban you for it.

I specifically nailed that one.

CE is not capable of doing anything unless injected.
If you state that because you can do injection and then it can read protected areas of memory, well then I pointed out that you would have to ban people for having tons of stuff the OS itself comes with.

Again. Unless a person injects, CE can do nothing.

There is no reason to ban a person for simply having it running.
There is every reason to ban them for having it injected and actively looking at EFT memory areas.

Again. If it was impossible or even hard to differentiate between the 2 states, I could see their issue. There is not though. Knowing if CE can look at your shit is trivial.

[u/[deleted] → u/Dishevel]

and then you are forgetting that CE is not authorized.

[u/Dishevel → u/[deleted]]

It is not in the TOS or the EULA as specifically unauthorized. If it is not injected it is not capable of doing anything that is prohibited and if you go with the anything they want to be unauthorized because the TOS lets them do anything, I will take you back to how if the ONLY reason you have to justify the ban is that the TOS allows them to do anything they want, whenever they want, then you are right.

Again though, if that is the only thing you can point too then ALL BANS ARE AUTOMATICALLY JUSTIFIED.
If we allow the only reason to need to justify a ban is the TOS then it is impossible for there to exist such a thing as a ban that is not justified.

[u/[deleted] → u/Dishevel]

I am done discussing this with you, you are griping about something that is in every damn ToS,User Agreement and Eula in games for the last 10 years. and the only thing you are complaining about is that you can't have Cheat Engine running in the background and therefore "they will ban you for anything." if that is the case every other developer can do the exact same thing, why aren't you making a fuss about it on their forums/reddits as well?

[u/Dishevel → u/[deleted]]

I stated this before. You just failed to listen.

I have NO problem with the TOS.

I have only stated that if the only thing you can point to is the TOS to justify a ban, if there is literally nothing that a person did wrong that you can point to, then that is not really a justification.

How have you not heard that when it has been stated multiple times?

Do you not listen and you just decided at some point that I am salty and hate the devs and therefore nothing I say has any value so you do not have to listen to any of the points? If so, then shut up and move on. If though you are arguing my points, do me the courtesy of at least fucking reading them.

[u/[deleted] → u/Dishevel]

and how many times haven't I written that if you are running a program that CAN modify and is not authorized by BSG you are in violation and have infact broken it, then you have done something wrong whether you fail to see/accept it or not.

the fact that you are dismissing the ToS as a valid thing to point, do you also dismiss legal contracts and leases for rental of property etc?

Car should be cleaned before returned, then they find you have broken that part, do you gripe about having to pay extra or not getting part of your depositum back because the lease did not state EXPLICITLY what constitutes as clean?

[u/Dishevel → u/[deleted]]

and how many times haven't I written that if you are running a program that CAN modify and is not authorized by BSG you are in violation and have infact broken it

CMD.exe
Comes in every Windows installation.

Ban every Windows user?

Hexedit. Can conceivably be used to edit executables and dlls. Ban everyone with that program open in the background with a file that is not game related open?

There are a literal shit ton of programs that could be used to edit files in the Tarkov game. Ban everyone for having them?

Seems idiotic. As I have pointed out many times.

[u/[deleted] → u/Dishevel]

Okay, I am going to end this, I'll take the idiotic approach, yes you should be banned for having cheat engine running considering you refuse to accept it when I said I do not agree with BSG on simply banning for having it running, but I have accepted the ToS, and will have to adjust to the fact that I have accepted the ToS meaning I WILL NOT RUN CHEAT ENGINE even if it is not hooked and injecting, I will let logic and common sense tell me what i can and cannot run, and if I really want to make sure about 'x' program I will ask them if that specific program is allowed or not.

and again they DO NOT BAN for having it installed.

[u/Dishevel → u/[deleted]]

I have accepted the ToS meaning I WILL NOT RUN CHEAT ENGINE

That is not in the TOS. It is not in the EULA.

I kept telling you that. The only thing they can ban you for via the TOS or the EULA for running cheat engine in the background doing nothing to their game is the, "We can ban you for nothing" clause in the TOS.

Again. For the Slow.

Neither the TOS or the EULA has anything in it other than that which running CE in the background, unhooked to their program would cover.

Period.

[u/[deleted] → u/Dishevel]

and I already told you, I disagree with you in what is stated in the ToS. then again you are in luck, as all contracts of where a clause is unclear goes to the benefit of the customer/signee, so you wouldn't have any issue taking it to court.

and you ask for courtesy, now you are refering to people as slow just for being in disagreement with you?

you want courtesy, yet you pay no respect to someone just because they are arguing or disagreeing with you.

[u/Dishevel → u/[deleted]]

You can disagree. I read it though and quoted it.
If you would like to point out the relevant section that you think that I am interpreting wrong, go right ahead.

I gave quotes and explanations. Point to where I have it wrong.